What is the Meaning of 1/3 in Rev.8?

[JoeMo]

We were given an assignment in SS this week to propose what the meaning of "1/3" in Rev. 8 means.

"A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up." (Rev. 8:7)

"a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Rev. 8:9)

"A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Rev. 8:11)

"a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night." (Rev. 8:12)

I tried to research it, but found nothing satisfactory.  Is it literal?  Is it figurative? Is it spiritual rather than physical?  I have no clue.  Does anyone have any ideas?

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

We were given an assignment in SS this week to propose what the meaning of "1/3" in Rev. 8 means.

Interesting when you take a look at it. Like many numbers in the Bible it seems to have a meaning beyond the number. I suspect that it means a significant part of something without being more than half or a majority of it. I will have to rethink this when I consider that one third of the angels of heaven were thrown out with Satan. Really one-third or just a significant number of them? Less than 1/4 might just mean a small number of them.

[JoeMo]

Thanks, gents.

Another thought that occurred to me in a spiritual (or esoteric?) sense is that 1/3 is the inverse of 3.  If 3 is a spiritual number representing perfection or righteousness,  could it be that 1/3 is the inverse of perfection/righteousness or imperfection/unrighteousness?

Another idea (going along with what B/W said) is that - contrasting the trumpets and the bowls of God's wrath, that the destruction of 1/3 of just about everything referred to in the trumpets is a final warning - like a shot over the bow - before the bowls of wrath which usher in complete destruction of everything.

[stinsonmarri]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

We were given an assignment in SS this week to propose what the meaning of "1/3" in Rev. 8 means.

"A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up." (Rev. 8:7)

"a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Rev. 8:9)

"A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter." (Rev. 8:11)

"a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a

third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night." (Rev. 8:12)

I tried to research it, but found nothing satisfactory.  Is it literal?  Is it figurative? Is it spiritual rather than physical?  I have no clue.  Does anyone have any ideas?

1

Hi Joe: I am back the reason why we do not understand the 1/3 which is literal is we do not understand the events that are taking place. We talk about the Elijah message but we do not understand. The SS lesson this month is not based on truth but actually on Uriah Smith misconception. When he wrote his book it was mainly based on what most Protestants believed when they separated from the Catholic Church. Now, when a person tells a lie to boost their book, it is still a lie!

We like the Hebrews are still on milk when we should be on meat. If the pioneers had truly taken the next step during the 1888 Message, we would be closer in the understanding of both Daniel and Revelation. Uriah Smith and the others close that door when they rejected more light that was given them to move forward.

In order to understand last day prophecy, we must understand why Elijah was chosen and what made his work so important. Mal 4: 5-6; Matt 11:11-13-15; 17:10-13; Luke 1:17; John 1:21 Elijah came on the scene when the Kingdom of Israel was at its lowest. It was totally wrapped up in false worship. Even the priest had gone completely astray. Jezebel priest and their false deity Baal had taken over. The Bible even said that that thousands had not bowed their need to Baal, yet YAHWEH knew that others needed to be saved. THE HOLY SPIRIT was leading Elijah to a stand amid the storm. It was time that IsraEL is taught a serious lesson. Elijah was instructed to go before Ahab and let him know that it would not rain nor even the dew will not come up from the earth. But, notice 1King 18:1 states in the third year after many days, Elijah told Obadiah (who took care of a hundred prophets and was also obedient to YAHWEH), to tell Ahab he wanted to talk to him. They met, but notice Ahab ask Elijah was he the one that troubled IsraEL? The Time of Trouble is not to persecute people and this is proven in the understanding, Elijah! The trouble was given to the prophet that came from the wrath of THE MOST HIGH, due to the sins of IsraEL. Here is understanding why the 144,000 as John did in YAHSHUA'S first advent, will take place just before HIS return. The Book of Life was the history of the world and YAHSHUA redeem the world. John 3:16 But all must change and believe in order to fall under the continual Plan phase two the Salvation.

One group of people like in the days of Elijah has to choose between two opinions to worship THE MOST HIGH or the Whore (the beast has not come or is known at this time see Rev 11:7). The whore is in control and notice is three years and some days (six months). Revelation Chapter Eleven shows that the Two Witness (the Bible) will be used by the 144,000. Rev 11:6 says:

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Elijah story has the same thing but the 144,000 will prophesy even more. They will have power shut up the rain and power over the water turning it to blood and to smite the earth with many plagues as they want. Now, this is also similar to Moses and Elijah! The first trumpet is a comet a rock covered with ice looking like hail. A comet is called a “snowball,’’ and as it comes closer to the sun is speeds us because of the sun gravitation. One of its tails is dust that looks like plasma and it will hit 1/3 of the earth and cause that area to burn. Various worldwide organizations will send ships for aid and then the second trumpet sounds. It will be an asteroid large as a mountain and it will hit 1/3 of the seas or oceans. Creatures in the sea will die along with the people in the ships. This will cause tremendous contamination with all the odious blood that is in the ocean. The third trumpet will blow and meteors will hit the moon and the sun for the first time in this world history, moving them from their original axis. One-third of the surface of each of them will again cause an effect on this earth. Tides will become out of control, the sun will be push closer to the earth and the heat will be unbearable. If you think that Ahab felt trouble for not having rain or dew, this is the worst trouble the earth has ever seen! Millions no man can number will see and accept that YAHWEH is THE RULER of this earth and THE ALMIGHTY ONES are in control! This is the final sealing and the Book of Life and the great multitude of names remain in the Book sealed! I am back!

Blessings to All!?

 

[APL]

The Book of Revelation is to reveal, ultimately for healing the view of God.  Of the 3 revelatory sequences, the seals encompass the view from start to finish, the Lamb opens the seals and reveals what is going on behind the scenes, and when the last seal opens, there is silence in the heavenly council for about half and hour, when what God is doing is made known.

The trumpets also reveal the ongoing demonic activity, with the 5th seal showing the clear identity of the demonic comparing Revelation 9 with Isaiah 14.  The Bowls are a recapitulation of the seals and the trumpets, only with all stopped pulled out.  The 1/3rds in the trumpets are not necessarily quantity as much are identity.  WHO is the acting subject?  The various 1/3rd are destroyed.  But we see the 1/3 also in Revelation 12.  Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Who is the acting subject?  The 3rds reveal the identity.

[stinsonmarri]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Welcome back our Sister In Christ!  I have personally missed your presence on the forum!!

It is good to be back, I have some important things I had to do. but I am back thank for the support you have given me Wander, I truly needed it and I have missed everybody!?

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

So we have one verse talking about "the third" and another verse talking about "the fourth."

Very interesting.

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont see why we would need to concern ourselves with speculating on literal numbers or exact percentages with Rev 9:18 and its mention of "the third part of all people killed." Why would exact numbers matter here? Is THAT really the point of this prophecy?

I agree with you; I have no axe to grind on this question.  I'm trying to be a good little Adventist and do my homework for next week's Sabbath School; that's all.

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/4/2019 at 4:08 PM, The Wanderer said:

I dont see why we would need to concern ourselves with speculating on literal numbers or exact percentages with Rev 9:18 and its mention of "the third part of all people killed." Why would exact numbers matter here? Is THAT really the point of this prophecy?

Wanderer: If you don't mind me saying that everything that is giving as prophecy is literal. We need to understand that every number is given for us to understand that specific Appointed Times. All of our lives depend on us to know and understand the truth. If Miller, Bates, J Whites Hiram Edison, Rachel Oakes Preston, EGW, and many others did not check out literally what the 2300 day prophecy meant we would not be here believing on the Investigated Judgment. Everything in the Bible was given for us to understand and the Bible clearly states that many times.

Why would YAHSHUA give something to John for us not to literally understand it? The angel came to help Daniel and us to understand his visions. Sadly, we have done what was told us not to do, interpret the Bible! It is no private interpretation! Many do not like what it revealed and tries to change it, making excuses, or using the most favorite words: all we need to do is to love each other and "Jesus! Why wast our time in believing in the Bible if it is not to be completely and literally understood? I heard many complain even about the Word being legalistic! It should be legalistic we have laws ourselves that we want everyone to observe. Yet, we make it so horrible for the Bible!! I say humbly, let's stop wasting our time either the Bible all of it needs to be understood and obeyed or none of it! Either all of it is our road map to Heaven or it is just a mythical book. 

Lastly, we have so many denominations because the Bible is broken down to believe only what they want and to toss aside what they refuse to accept. I feel it is high time for those to stand and believe that the Bible all of it is to lead us to salvation and to take it literally!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

6 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

I feel it is high time for those to stand and believe that the Bible all of it is to lead us to salvation and to take it literally!

I'm not here to defend EGW, but she certainly thought it was important to understand last day prophecy or she wouldn't have spent so much time on it.  I give her credit for motivating me to look deeper into prophecy.

In defense of Wanderer, I believe that the Bible is very clear on what prophecy is about - it is about God preparing and setting up His Kingdom under the rulership of our Lord and King Jesus - the Son of God - by virtue of His perfect life and all atoning sacrifice.

[stinsonmarri]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I'm not here to defend EGW, but she certainly thought it was important to understand last day prophecy or she wouldn't have spent so much time on it.  I give her credit for motivating me to look deeper into prophecy.

In defense of Wanderer, I believe that the Bible is very clear on what prophecy is about - it is about God preparing and setting up His Kingdom under the rulership of our Lord and King Jesus - the Son of God - by virtue of His perfect life and all atoning sacrifice.

Joe: It was great what you said about EGW, but if you notice, I included other pioneers as well. We only think of EGW and not all of them. They all had a role in presenting truth but the problem is SDA stopped! In the 1888 message again more truth was given to literally help them to draw closer to what was in the Bible. It was rejected and SDA became just another church or denomination. They elevated EGW and stated things she did not say; took her writings to make money by publishing books she never wrote. They took her writings out of context by making these books. We have not reached all of the world and we should wonder why! Many have left the church forming independent churches, others total false doctrines, then others, totally against SDA. I say something is wrong! SDA call themselves the remnant, now who give them that right? Literally, the Bible said the remnant is a seed and no church is mention. A couple of Sabbath ago, I said that IsraEL was not only one call by YAHWEH! The Canaanites (the Amorites, Melchizideck, YAHWEH literally gave them 430 years), Job, before he failed Baalim, Moses father in law Jethro. There are people today that keep the Commandments, Statutes better than we do. We need to be careful because the slayer angels of Eze five is literally removing us from the Book of Life. We won't even know it because we become more and compromise to traditions and doctrines. Some of my members went off!

I wasn't putting Wanderer down, he has true concerns and I know in my heart he like you want to be saved. The Bible says by their fruits you shall know them and I have seen both of you fruits by the things you say on this forum. My heart is heavy as I see the corruption in the Whitehouse. Anything immoral goes these days and if we don't really take this Bible literally we will accept false teachings. I know Henry from a long time ago and this Iran is incorrect. It bothers me Iran really is Persia who was one of the Aryan tribes that the Bible said would dwell in the tents of Shem. Gen 9:27 The Bible is the history of this world and it deals with the past, the present and the future. If we don't understand true history, we will never understand the Bible! I have been given a book which I truly appreciate but do not agree with its concept at all. It amazes me that we have to use other theories, philosophies, and thoughts to understand the Word. No, the Bible explains itself and it has a pattern and if we follow the pattern, symbols, numbers that are used they all are consistent.

Example the number 7 stands for perfection. If you break 7 down three and four are used throughout the Bible. Three is significant to the THREE ALMIGHTY ONES among other things that point to ONE of THEM! Four always represents the four corners of the earth. 10 is universal which also means all of the nations of the earth. 12, 120 are numbers that are important as well. The word heart means the center of your mind and spirit is a misused word and has caused a lot of confusion. The KJV used the word in place of using the word mind or our thought process. We must accept that words have been added in the Bible to confuse us. Just like we study to be one of the professions that we chose we had to do research. It is sad but true the Bible needs us to research, the Bereans did so we must do it also. Sin is in the world by Satan and he knows he is lost, he wants you to lose as well. He does not play by the rules, he is a deceiver. Let me give you some examples as I close. Hell is an English word for the Greek word Hades. It means simply grave and if you notice Rev 20:14 that hell was cast into the Lake of Fire. We need to know what words literally mean in order to accomplish salvation. I am not down on anyone. I feel what is taken place today in the USA is a wake-up call. It is time to halt between two opinions either you are on YAHWEH'S side or immorality. Immorality means anything goes, lying, sex, adultery, homosexuality, believing in aliens over THE ALMIGHTY ONES. This world, those who claim to know all have gone astray. So much hate, racism among us that it is getting out of control. I feel this is the time of the remnant being sealed for the work they must do with the Two Witness during the Time of Trouble. The remnant is be sealed now and when that is over that is for those who confess to keep all the Commandments and have the Testimony of YAHSHUA! The next phase is to bring in the harvest of souls along with calling out the wrath of THE ALMIGHTY on this earth. This time will soon be upon us. Proof the earth is dying because we have not taken care of it. People truly want to now but it is too late, time is coming to an end and we must choose whom we will serve! 

Blessings! 

 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

We need to know what words literally mean in order to accomplish salvation.

Your post was very thoughtful, as usual.  Concerning the statement above, I think we need to know what words literally mean to learn the deep truths of scripture.  But to say we need to know them to accomplish salvation is a little over the top.  If that is the case, there won't be many saved.  I think we have to believe Who Yeshua is, and that He has done, is doing, and will do all that is necessary to save those who believe in Him - I'll go so far as to say depend utterly on Him - for salvation.

Blessed Sabbath to you.

[JoeMo]

We had the Sabbath School class on "the meaning of 1/3 in the Bible" today.  No conclusions.  The closest we came to agreement was that it must have some meaning beyond the literal "1/3" since it is used so frequently in Revelation (1/3 of angels fell, 1/3 of earth destroyed, 1/3 of sun blocked out, etc.).  No one agreed on an allegorical meaning.  So much for that exercise.

[JoeMo]

49 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I think its an important distinction to make; that "agreement" on THAT is not really needed in order to get the gist of the passage.

Agreed.  I don't think we need to find esoteric spiritual applications for everything in scripture.  Sometimes it may mean what it literally says - in this case, a significant portion but less than half of the things mentioned are destroyed or killed. Trees means trees, for example.

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/8/2019 at 7:54 PM, JoeMo said:

Your post was very thoughtful, as usual.  Concerning the statement above, I think we need to know what words literally mean to learn the deep truths of scripture.  But to say we need to know them to accomplish salvation is a little over the top.  If that is the case, there won't be many saved.  I think we have to believe Who Yeshua is, and that He has done, is doing, and will do all that is necessary to save those who believe in Him - I'll go so far as to say depend utterly on Him - for salvation.

Blessed Sabbath to you.

To all that responded and reacted to my comments: I first would like to thank you. I still feel that I have not explained simply how to understand the adverb word "literally." I search and found this explanation that I would like to expound on if I may:

The adverb literally means "actually," and we use it when we want others to know we're serious, not exaggerating or being metaphorical. Figuratively means metaphorically, and literally describes something that actually happened. Vocabulary.com

The Bible is a Book that actually wants you to know what will soon take place and how mankind is involved. It gives metaphor as we do but they figuratively can be understood to stand for events that are not exaggerated. What we have to do is understand the tools that THE HOLY SPIRIT gives us and not on our own. You know humanity has always used animals metaphorically to represent our country with power and strength. My understanding that the pioneers were able to realize that the two-horned beast or animal was the buffaloe! How because it had lamb-like horns! Green grass and Trees are used figuratively to mean something that we need to know seriously. How do we find the actual meaning? That is when the Bible says "line upon line and precept upon precept, here a little there a little." So let's see the clues in these scriptures to help us understand what we need to know:

And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither, and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psa 1:3 

But I am like a green olive tree in the House of ELOHIYM: I trust in the Mercy of ELOHIYM forever and ever. Psa 52:8 

The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. Psa 92:12 

My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distill as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: Deut 32:2 

Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up. 2King 19:26 

Thou shalt know also that thy seed shall be great, and thine offspring as the grass of the earth. Job 5:25 

Now can you see that the trees and green grass stands for people? The 1/3 is an exact meaning the angel express. The reason is clear but you have to understand the trumpet sounds. Again, we must know and understand the requirement giving to the children of IsraEL concerning the different sounds of the trumpet:

There seem to have been signals made by a difference in the loudness and variety in the notes, suited for different occasions, and which the Israelites learned to distinguish. A simple uniform sound by both trumpets summoned a general assembly of the people; the blast of a single trumpet convoked the princes to consult on public affairs; notes of some other kind were made to sound an alarm, whether for journeying or for war. Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary

Studying the sounds of the trumpet during the time IsraEL is extremely important. The reason is that is important to YAHWEH when THE SON spoke to IsraEL the Commandments, Statutes, and Judgements. Angels first sounded trumpets of THEIR PRESENCE. Israel had to learn the distinct sounds but again, as I studied, I notice that the Bible language in both the Hebrew and the Greek presented the sounds different than the Rabbinical beliefs today. The names given are the same but the meaning of the sounds are totally different here is the Bible Trumpet Sounds of the Old and New Testament.

1. Teru`ah is one long blast. It is the alarm! This was blown by the angels when YAHWEH SPOKE the Commandments Statutes and Judgments. Ex 19:13, 16-19 It is the blast that sounds only on the 1^st day of the 7^th month each year. Only this new moon is a special occasion and it is not called Sabbath.* The blast gives warning and remembrance that soon the Day of Atonement is approaching which is on the 10^th day of the 7^th month. It is a solemn day of realizing the seriousness of sin committed throughout the year and a fearful appeal to sincere repentance and atonement that they individually will not be destroyed or blotted out! Lev 23:24; Psa 81:3

2. Shevarim is three broken notes (quivers) it is the wake-up sound to assemble the whole encampment for a specific or special event that was about to take place. This sound denotes THE DIVINE HAND of YAHWEH will cause someone or something to bring damage. It shows certain serious events will take place. Joshua 6:4; Judges 6:34; 7:18-20; Neh 4:18; Job 39:24; Amos 3: 6; Zep 1:15-16; Rev Chapters 8-11 (1King 18:17)

3. Tekiah consists of quavering or billow of waves; it is the victory sound of large procession and arrival of the king coming to regain order for the people. 1King 1:34; Psa 47:5; 98:6; 150:3; Matt 24:31; 1Thess 4:16; Rev 19:11-16; 1Cor 14:8; 15:52; Rev 1:10, 4:1, 8:13

 *Sabbathon means a special occasion in the Tanakh published in 1985; which states clearly it is according to the Traditional Hebrew Text. If YAHWEH wanted it to be called the Sabbath HE would have said so.

I proclaim that in order to understand Daniel and Revelation one must get a clear understanding of the unique history of IsraEL from Genesis to Malachi. All the things YAHWEH introduced and the events, the patterns of the Sanctuary and instruments, the wars, the rejoicing, the Holy Convocations. Everything was specifically given for a reason and they all pointed to the two phases; the Redemption and then the Salvation. This is why Paul clearly stated that the Hebrew should have known the truth. They should have understood clearly that YAHSHUA would come in the flesh, then the second and the final advent of HIS coming. Again understand that the ways the Bible presents things are simple but unique patterns that need to be followed. Remember My people are lost due to the lack of knowledge of understanding HIS WAY, HIS Law and HIS SON'S Testimony! I hope I have presented is clearer and more simple to understand.

May you all be bless!

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

Now can you see that the trees and green grass stands for people?

Sorry; I cannot.  While I agree that trees and seas stand for people in some places, Rev. 9:15 states referring to the impact of the 5th trumpet:

"And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind." 

So in this case, I think "mankind" means people; and "trees, grass, and seas probably means trees, grass, and seas.  If trees, grass and seas means people, it would seem like all people would be dead by the end of the sixth trumpet.

I'm not saying you are mistaken; I'm just pointing out my thought process.

[JoeMo]

Another thought on the 1/3 Could it be a hint as to who is behind these catastrophes?

"Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth." (Rev. 12:3-4) 

"

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

definitely; I would agree on that!

I have to give credit where it is due.  This idea came to me from former AS member 8thdaypriest (aka Rachel).

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:03 PM, The Wanderer said:

They sound just like us!

Wanderer and Phkaruse I feel the same way. This is why we need to understand that YAHWEH does not change! HE does not change HIS NAME, the name HE gave to IsraEL, HIS ACTIONS, HIS original Calendar (Gen 1:14; the whore will attempt but he cannot change YAHWEH'S set time), HIS Holy Convocations which includes the Sabbath (these days are set times that are known as Statues again Gen1:14), HIS Commandments and Statures (Ex 24:12), which HIS Covenant. This is HIS Everlasting Gospel! HIS WORD will not come back to HIM Void! Everything above is restated in Revelation and we too like the Hebrews should be on the meat, but sadly still on the milk. Some of our milk has become fermented!

Happy Sabbath Everyone!

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:28 PM, JoeMo said:

Sorry; I cannot.  While I agree that trees and seas stand for people in some places, Rev. 9:15 states referring to the impact of the 5th trumpet:

"And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind." 

So in this case, I think "mankind" means people; and "trees, grass, and seas probably means trees, grass, and seas.  If trees, grass and seas means people, it would seem like all people would be dead by the end of the sixth trumpet.

I'm not saying you are mistaken; I'm just pointing out my thought process.

Yes, Joe, you are correct but the impact of the 5^th trumpet starts dealing with very specific and serious events due to the three woes of Rev 8:13. The 5th trumpet is dealing with issues that all denominations just don’t want to accept. Let me take you back if I may to the time of YAHSHUA, the KJV writers and the many versions today have done a major cover-up! There was a man who was possessed and tortured by a legion of demons. This is the only time that you see anyone dealing with a legion of evil angels. You will read that many devils were cast out but most reading use the plural word devils alone when you look it up in the original mean is referring to Satan.

Returning to the legions of angels, YAHSHUA called them to leave the man. But notice what they said:

And they besought HIM that HE would not Command them to go out into the deep. Luke 8:31

Now here is the Peshitta  version:

 And they were begging HIM that HE would not Command them to go out into the bottomless pit. Luke 8:31 

So, what does the bottomless pit means, I found surprisingly some truth on the web:

 Bottomless (adj.) early 14c., "without a bottom," from bottom + -less. From the 1560s as "baseless, unsubstantial." Etymology Online

 Bottomless pit (Bible), a place where demons are imprisoned. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

 The bottomless pit may be associated with a place called Tartarus. This Greek word is translated as “hell” and is used only once in Scripture, in 2 Peter 2:4. It refers to the place where “angels who sinned” are reserved in chains of darkness for judgment. The NIV says these angels in Tartarus are held in “gloomy dungeons.” These same angels are also mentioned in Jude 6 as the angels who “abandoned their own home” Got Questions Ministries

 Tartarus (Greek)

Tartarus (G5020) tartaroō From Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); Greek mythology the place where the Titans were incarcerated. To incarcerate in eternal torment: – cast down to hell.

 This last sentence in the definition was a total invention of the compiler.

 ‘Tartarus’ is only mentioned once in the New Testament:

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment (2 Peter 2:4).

 If they were ‘reserved for judgment’ then they had not yet been judged and it would have been unjust to subject them to punishment. This is not ‘to incarcerate in eternal torment.’ Mike Parsons with Jeremy Westcott

Many do not want to accept the truth about the word stating it means hell. Hell actually means grave and the Bible clearly states that death and hell will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:13, 14

The Bible clearly provides the truth about the angels who were not kicked down to the earth as the KJV in Rev 12:4, 9 said. The Greek word “ge,” means terrain, worlds, soil and land mass. When they wrote the Bible these medieval people thought the earth was the center of the Universe. We know better today, yet we still want to hang on to unfounded beliefs.

I know that some of you do not accept EGW, but for those who do, she also stated this as well. She stated that Satan and his angels sin before the earth was made. She gives a detailed story of them being cast out and the plan to make the earth would still be carried out, but sin had come into the Universe we would have to pass a test. She states how Satan and his angels were upset and that Satan removed himself from the others to be alone to think. He hated losing his place in Heaven and his lofty position. He saw an angel of light flying to return to Heaven for evening worship, passing him by; he called out to him and asked could he have a meeting with MICHAEL (YAHSHUA)! He did asking to return to Heaven, claiming he had made a mistake and he was sorry. He only spoke of himself, never the other angels that he caused to sin and loosed their home. She said that MICHAEL wept and told him that sin originated in him and he was not sorry and would return and cause more problems in Heaven. Satan was furious and returning to the angels who were looking for him told them, he was going after the Adams when the earth would be created. Vol. 1SP p.23, 28-34

I will let you all absorb this and I will explain the 5th trumpet and their king as the Bible states.

Be bless everyone

 

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Hell actually means grave

The Greek word for "hell" os "Hades", which can mean the grave or the underworld.  Tartaroo is a different place.  It is where the fallen angels who mated with Human women to produce the Nephillim are being held.

[stinsonmarri]

On 3/19/2019 at 6:40 PM, JoeMo said:

The Greek word for "hell" os "Hades", which can mean the grave or the underworld.  Tartaroo is a different place.  It is where the fallen angels who mated with Human women to produce the Nephillim are being held.

Sorry, Joe but angels did not have sex with women of the earth. They were already in prison when they all were kicked out. YAHWEH does allow one to be with each individual person while they are alive. But just like what happened with the legions, they have to go back! There is nothing at all in Genesis Chapter Six that gives anyone this false view. Seth children were the son's of YAHWEH, and this is who the Bible was referring too and not angels.

And YAHWEH SAID, MY SPIRIT shall not always strive with human beings, in their going astray they are flesh. And their days shall be a hundred and twenty years (times). Gen 6:3 HRB

 

The word “'âdâm,” means both male and female. Gen 1:26 is truly bad grammar and it is sad also it is the male ego. The Text said to make male and female and them in THEIR IMAGE and LIKENESS. But male writers of the KJV and also modern versions have withheld the truth, making women second class citizens. Look at Gen 5 the first verse and then the second.

This^H2088 is the book^H5612 of the generations^H8435 of Adam.^H121 In the day^H3117 that God (ELOHIYM) ^H430 created^H1254 man,^H120 in the likeness^H1823 of God (ELOHIYM) ^H430  made^H6213 he him. Gen 5:1 

The second form is the feminine beyond the Pentateuch; a primitive word, the third person pronoun singular, he (she or it); only expressed when emphatic or without a verb; also (intensively) self, or (especially with the article) the same; sometimes (as demonstrative) this or that; occasionally (instead of copula) as or are: - he, as for her, him (-self), it, the same, she (herself), such, that (. . . it), these, they, this, those, which (is), who. Strong Hebrew Dictionary

Notice the words and the Hebrew numbers above them you can find the Paleo Hebrew words in Strong or NIV or any of the Lexicons and you see other words were added. Now ^H121 says Adam and this actually means the first male human being. Who was created first and then the female was also created both of them were call Adam, ^H120 meaning male, and female.

Male and female created HE them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:2 

Looking at the word

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of ELOHIYM came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Gen 6:4 

Let’s look and see the words added:

Gen 6:4  There were^H1961 giants^H5303 in the earth^H776 in those^H1992 days;^H3117 and also^H1571 after^H310 that,^H3651 when^H834 the sons (nations or children)^H1121 of God (ELOHIYM)^H430 came in^H935 unto^H413 the daughters^H1323 of men,(Human Beings)^H120 and they bare^H3205 children to them, the same ( many he’s and  she’s)^H1992 became mighty men(powerful giants) ^H1368 which^H834 were of,^H4480 old (long duration, antiquity, futurity)  ^H5769 men (be extant)^H376 of renown.^H8034 

 If you notice I exchange some words that made you think the females only produce just men. That is not true at all.

The Paleo Hebrew word "nephı̂yl or nephil," mean to bully or tyrant and the root word means to "fall, or to lie" from Strong and NAS also Brown-Driver-Briggs. So I don't know why the English actually lied and use the word giant! They were all tall and used 100% of their brain but were bent on continuous evil.

Finally, YAHWEH never called an angel, good or bad HIS son, the person who called himself Enoch made this up! More than one wrote person wrote these volumes:

From the third century BCE on, authors used him as their spokesman, attributing all sorts of secret knowledge to his revelation. Five of these texts were joined together at an unknown moment, and are now known as the First Book of Enoch. It is also called the Ethiopian Book of Enoch because the book is best known from some forty manuscripts from Ethiopia. However, there are many Aramaic fragments of the constituent parts among the Dead Sea scrolls, a handful of Greek fragments and one scrap in Latin.

The title First Book of Enoch suggests that there is a Second Book too. This is a text on the lives of Enoch and his descendants; it is only known to us in a Slavonic translation and it is not known when it was written. The Third Book of Enoch was written in the fifth/sixth century and describes how the second-century rabbi Ishmael journeyed into heaven and saw God's throne and chariot. This work has influenced the Zohar, the sacred book of Kabala. Livius.org

For unto which of the angels said HE at any time, thou art MY son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a FATHER, and he shall be to ME a son?  And of the angels, HE SAITH, Who maketh HIS angels' spirits, and HIS ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:5, 7 

We are called children of ELOHIYM, but the KJV once again said, only sons. John 1:12;  Rom 8:14, 19  Php 2:15  1John 3:1

It is my hope that all of the men on this forum will open their heart to the truth and treat women as their equal. This was how it was in the beginning.

Be bless everyone!

[JoeMo]

8 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

They were already in prison when they all were kicked out.

Thanks for your long narrative on man and woman.  I can't comment on it because much of it is new information to me.  I have a question on what I quoted.  If they were already in prison, why was satan still free?  Did these other angels in prison cross a line that even satan dare not cross?  My opinion is yes - they mated with human women and their offspring was a hybrid super race bent on evil that God could not allow to exist. IMHO, that is what an objective literal read of the text proclaims.  I have stated my line of reasoning on this in several other threads; and don't have the time this morning to restate them.  People can spiritualize away the text in Genesis 6, 1 Enoch, Peter, and Jude if they desire; I prefer a literal read of the text.

[stinsonmarri]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Thanks for your long narrative on man and woman.  I can't comment on it because much of it is new information to me.  I have a question on what I quoted.  If they were already in prison, why was satan still free?  Did these other angels in prison cross a line that even satan dare not cross?  My opinion is yes - they mated with human women and their offspring was a hybrid super race bent on evil that God could not allow to exist. IMHO, that is what an objective literal read of the text proclaims.  I have stated my line of reasoning on this in several other threads; and don't have the time this morning to restate them.  People can spiritualize away the text in Genesis 6, 1 Enoch, Peter, and Jude if they desire; I prefer a literal read of the text.

You are right that Satan was the only one free and the Bible throughout indicates this. Now Satan rules over the angels where ever MICHALE sent them. Keep in mind that that billions of them are released to work with one individual from birth until death. They get their orders from Satan. Satan cannot be all over the world at the same time he is limited. His job is to organize those released and to stop the prophetic prophecy that will usher in his doom. This place is not far from Heaven and it is beyond Orion. We forget angels can come through our limited time zone and return to where time is everlasting. They do have this over us but if you read truly understand the power of Nimrod and the people also the tower, there is nothing that man has not done before. Keep that in mind. Remember THEY came down with the people speaking one language and under the order of one man-Nimrod. I know most have a hard time accepting but Nimrod, Kush youngest son rule the entire world! You also need to listen to what YAHWEH said:

 And YAHWEH SAID Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do! Gen 11:6 

THEY did not come down to talk to Noah about the flood, but THEY did here! Just think about it! 

You know, we try to mix false writers with men who had the HOLY SPIRIT! You cannot put the two together and the words as I showed does not mean what you said and that's a fact. I showed when these books were written and they were not by Enoch, he was taken to Heaven. Angels do not have sex organs, we do! The Bible proves that as well when he made male and female and told us how to produce. There is nothing anywhere to show the same for angels, except they were created only by THE SON! Evil angels work on our senses for us to sin. They are experts and as you can see more sin than those who are saved! The wicked are horrible and do all unimaginable sins to get a reaction from THE ALMIGHTY ONES. Sadly, Joe, we will believe a lie, stand up for it, argue it and yes even kill for then the truth. There is so much in the Book of Enoch that does not make common sense. First of all the names of the angels. Only one angel and his name is mention in the Bible and that is Lucifer. Secondly, if evil angels were supposed to have sex with flesh beings and they are bent on evilness you think they will stop? They are spirits, we are flesh and they don't have sex organs to have or desire what we desire. They just work on human beings who they know are created with senses, especially lust so that we can do unspeakable things against our bodies and against THE CREATORS!

For the wrath of YAHWEH is revealed from Heaven against all wickedness and unrighteousness of human beings, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of ELOHIYM is manifest in them; for ELOHIYM hath showed it unto them. For the INVISIBLE things of HIM from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even HIS ETERNAL POWER and MAJESTY; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew ELOHIYM, they esteemed HIM not as YAHWEH, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools And changed the magnificence of the uncorruptible ELOHIYM into an image made like to corruptible human beings, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore ELOHIYM also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of ELOHIYM into a lie and worshipped and served the creature more than THE CREATOR, who is blessed forever. Amen. Rom 1:18 -25 WOY

Now, Paul gives a complete history of before the flood until our time. Nothing is mentioned about evil angels having sex with flesh. Not even the two Scriptures you stated. They clearly speak of them being in prison and are going to be judged with the wicked together after, the saints check over the books. THE ALMIGHTY ONES are just, true and fair SPIRITUAL BEINGS! I showed you that they are spirit beings just like THE ALMIGHTY ONES! They do not have sex organs, the Bible specified clearly that a male and his sex organs will only mate with a female and her sex organs. This was explained from the beginning and YAHWEH said very clearly to flesh being lying with even animals can cause confusion and it has! Nothing mention about warning flesh beings that angels would try and mate with them. The Bible is very consistent. It truly amazes me that people will read books that are fake or false and try to relate them to men that had the gift of THE HOLY SPIRIT!

Satan will be prisoned in his own kingdom, his only seat of authority for a thousand years. He and his evil angels will all be released when YAHSHUA returns with the saints to execute judgment on them and the wicked. THE ALMIGHTY ONES are just, righteous and fair! All evil will be eradicated at one time. This should let you know Joe who was released by the fifth trumpet symbolize as smoke and locust, all of them. This is the first woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

Finally, thank you for the compliment you gave about the male and female truth I presented. They both were to subdue the earth. No king or queen- both just rulers of the entire earth, they had certain powers that they lost as well. All truths will be revealed before YAHSHUA returns. The ME Movement and more, the violence like the days of Noah, the lustful sins like the days of Sodom, those claim from all denominations show how much they care for the least of them. They also show they are not their brother keeper. We all are flesh beings and are related by blood to one another. We came from the first male and female and we are doing some heinous things to each other. We have destroyed the earth that we were given to subdue and to care for. We have failed and the earth is dying! Soon all will have to make a choice! YAHWEH'S prophecies will happen and we worried or dispute over a man in the Whitehouse, we have problems. Satan will not stop the truth believe what you want the prophecies will be fulfilled and the beast and the whore will take their place as stated in the Bible. I just pray for all who can see truth from error and stand!

Happy Sabbath everyone and special blessings from on High!

[JoeMo]

You weave a great narrative, Marri; but it does not convince me of a plain read of Gen. 6:4:

"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown." (NIV)

"here were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." (KJV)

"In those days, giants lived on the earth and also afterward, when divine beings and human daughters had sexual relations and gave birth to children. These were the ancient heroes, famous men."(CEB)

"The children of the supernatural beings who had married these women became famous heroes and warriors. They were called Nephilim and lived on the earth at that time and even later."

There are 49 other translations that all say basically the same thing.

I agree that the Bible never explicitly says that angels don't have sex organs; but it doesn't explicitly say that they don't, either.  Even if they don't have them in their spiritual form, if they can materialize in physical form, why couldn't that physical form have sex organs?  Doing what they did was truly an over-the-top abomination.  That's why they are currently imprisoned in the abyss.  There are still many free fallen angels and demons to go around.

4 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

This should let you know Joe who was released by the fifth trumpet symbolize as smoke and locust, all of them. This is the first woe to the inhabiters of the earth.

I agree totally with this statement. The 5th trumpet announces the release of the evil angels currently imprisoned in the abyss.  These aren't puny little demons that are of no influence unless they can inhabit or possess a physical body; these are high order angels who can materialize, put on flesh, and wreak havoc (as the 5th trumpet indicates).

[stinsonmarri]

46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."

Look up the word! 

The word is loosely translated as giants in some Bibles and left untranslated in others. The "sons of God" have been interpreted as fallen angels in some traditional Jewish explanations.

 

According to Numbers 13:33, they later inhabited Canaan at the time of the Israelite conquest of Canaan.

 

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon (1908) gives the meaning of nephilim as "giants", and holds that proposed etymologies of the word are "all very precarious.” Many suggested interpretations are based on the assumption that the word is a derivative of Hebrew verbal root n-ph-l (נ־פ־ל) "fall". Robert Baker Girdlestone argued in 1871 the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem, implying that the nephilim are to be perceived as "those that cause others to fall down." Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form: "ones who have fallen", grammatically analogous to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e., overseer), asir "one who is bound" (i.e., prisoner), etc.]

 The majority of ancient biblical versions—including the Septuagint, Theodotion, Latin Vulgate, Samaritan Targum, Targum Onkelos, and Targum Neofiti—interpret the word to mean "giants.” Symmachus translates it as "the violent ones" Nephilim - Wikipedia

I am sorry to say you hung on a myth. The Bible is our road map to salvation, YAHWEH is Just and True. They don't hide things, they would have told us. Gen 6:7 only speak of humanity-flesh beings and everything created on this earth. Why would he speak of evil angels do what you said? I agree with Wanderer is has nothing to deal with salvation. It a counterfeit to lie about Creation and Satan cleverly want you to believe that angels have something that they don't have. Look to truth see the cunningness of a pro. This is his game and he makes us doubt the truth, the creation of both flesh and spiritS which is like oil and water they don't mix. That all I can say, the rest is left up to THE HOLY SPIRIT! 

Happy Sabbath my friend and to all be bless!