Starting a new Church

[cleverdics]

I know this could be contraversial, and it is not meant to be, at all!! But I have been thinking about the way we govern our churches in the SDA Church for a long time. Basically we use a democratic style, and I don't find that model in the Bible. God seems to function on a Kingdom style of government and I don't know why we don't follow this in our Church, especially in relation to what Paul says about Spiritual Gifts in 1 Corinthians. Jesus is the head, all have various gifts.

I want to discuss a whole new concept of church functioning with anyone who is interested, and hope to one day put it into practice, God be willing. What do you think? Is our style of organisation written in stone? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" />

[Gerr]

Who do you want to be king?

Gerry

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think he means that Jesus is King. But how would the leaders of the various fiefdoms of fruits be chosen? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

[Kountzer]

Go ahead.

I'll watch the compound conflagration on the news.

DB

[Yong T Tay]

There are already more than 30,000 christian denomination churches in the United States alone. To add one more is to add more confusions to Christainity. To me the best church for bible studies and discussions is found in this forum.

[cleverdics]

Not about who I want Gerry, Jesus is King <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

[cleverdics]

It seems to me that we do not rely on God enough in our decisions. I want to see what happens when a group of people get together and pray and pray and pray that God will reveal His leaders, His gifts, His ministries. God brought forward prophets in the OT, before human kings, and they played a key role in the communication between God and mankind. I do not see what has changed that God would not raise up prophets again for us. I don't think God has changed the way He communicates with us. We have lost our faith. I just want to see what happens when we stop choosing through the nominating committee approach and wait on God to reveal His will. I figure there is nothing to lose and everything to gain. We got to get out of the boat.

[Kevin H]

Prior to the kingdom model there was the judges model which was very democratic. When the people asked for a kingdom model Samuel said that he set one up. Apperently it was edited into Deuteronomy where we find a three power kingdom model of priests and trible elders, who elect a citizen King with limited powers, and the Prophets who had the final say. (interesting this is what the founding fathers of the US used in the sennate, president and Constitution/supream court.)

Then you have the differences between the North and South, with the North being much more of a congragational form of worship and politics, and the south having a strong central government and strong General Conference.

Too many of us read the Bible through Fundamentalists glasses and so argue as to whether the Bible teaches a strong General Conference or a more Congragational approach, and both sides find key texts that PROVE their side.

Basically in the Bible we find that the ideal form of Church government does not exist. Both sides have their strong points and weak points, and you can find Bible writers dogmatic at one against the other arguing both sides, so this is a topic that not even the Bible writers could agree on.

The restructuring of 1901 was a way of both changing from the smaller church of the 1800s to the new growing church, and an attempt to compromise between the two forms of government giving a strong central General Conference with a heavy voice from the congrations.

[cleverdics]

Good history! Thanks Kevin. I need something more though, for me personally. I want to go back to a fundamentalist approach in which God actually exists and communicates with us. I might be considered a fool in this modern time, but I don't care anymore. When Jesus said we have to become like children I beleive he was saying we have to dump our intelect and trust Him like a little kid. Peter had to dump his intelect, his knowledge of the water and it's perils when he wanted to get out and walk to Jesus. If this kind of faith is stupid, ignorant, than I cannot see how I can beleive at all. For me, black and white, Jesus is king (deserves our total sacrific), His will is all in all, or He was just a man (an idiot). I can no longer live by trying to understand everything. It leaves me empty, like Solomon said, everything becomes meaningless. I think it is to big for us. I want to live by faith.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: ". . .I have been thinking about the way we govern our churches in the SDA Church for a long time. Basically we use a democratic style,. . . "

There are many people reading here who would disagree with your statement that the SDA Chruch is democratic.

I do not mean to sound crude, but have you recently been visiting another planet? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[there buster]

Just tagging on.

Two points.

1)No, our organization is not written in stone. In the 19th century, we changed that orgzanization every 10 years. It has not been changed since 1903.

I would suggest that reorganizaiton is long overdue.

2) It appears you're cofussing "models of the church" with cultural expressions. In a day when champions often ruled, God used champions (judges). When monarchies became the norm, he used monarchies.

There is no New Testament model of the church. There are two major metaphors: The Body of Christ, and the Temple of Living Stones.

The Jerusalem Council appears to be similar to modern-day committees, which may or may not be democratic.

The Greek word translated "church" is ekklessia-- from which we get the Spanish "Iglesia" and French "L'eglise," wich mean "church"-- and has the meaning "called out."

The church consists of those "called out." If history is any guide, they will organize themselves in different ways at different times.

However, I caution you. Organization is no better or worse than the people who implement it. Looking to organization to solve church problems recalls poet T.S. Eliot's line:"Dreaming of systems so perfect no one would have to be good."

[cleverdics]

I'll watch the compound conflagration on the news.

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" />What's this?

[cleverdics]

Some confusion here I think. I am not thinking about a new denomination, just a new congregation. A new group of Christians, Adventist, to meet with and minister with. I am looking for all those people who are tired of the polotics, and just want to live in the Spirit of God each day. If there are people in this forum who are contented with their churches (congregations), great!!! I am too some degree with mine. But I know there are many who arn't, and I am called to round them up and try to work out a system in which they can worship and be uplifted and feel productive. If you are going to write to this topic, please refrain from pulling me down. I know that the messages that come from God never do that. If you feel that what you are going to write might pull me down please have the courage to leave it unsaid!

[cleverdics]

Are you a chaplain in this forum Gregory? I need to see Jesus <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/luxhello.gif" alt="" />

[Kountzer]

What am I supposed to do? Move to australia and help start a new church? Your post was ridiculous from the start.

DB

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I believe it was a reference to the Branch Davidians compound in Waco, Texas being burned some years ago. I'm not sure why the reference to it in this thread though. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[cleverdics]

Thanks Ed

I am open to everyones idea and imput. If I weren't I would not have posted. I know that there is no perfect human model, and as a world standard, I think the SDA Church is about as good as it gets. But I want more. I don't think we can sit back on our backsides and say we have arrived. I have observed the churches method of electing people into positions in the church (local) for about 30 years and it seems to me that we often just fill in holes. I want to try doing it differently, and if fail, nothing ventureed, nothing gained. I want to start with a small group of people, online and off, who are willing to explore something new, a new way of doing church. I think we need to wake up Sabbath morning with some zing, looking forward to what the day will bring. Most of my experience of church, and my wifes and families, is burden. We have to do this or that today. Why, becuase it is our duty. That is very tiring and faith destroying. I believe that if we are working within our gifting area, we will enjoy what we are doing. Maybe I am wrong. Will not be the first time. But I will have a go anyway, but God's grace.

[there buster]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I want to try doing it differently, and if fail, nothing ventureed, nothing gained. I want to start with a small group of people, online and off, who are willing to explore something new, a new way of doing church. I think we need to wake up Sabbath morning with some zing, looking forward to what the day will bring. Most of my experience of church, and my wifes and families, is burden. We have to do this or that today. Why, becuase it is our duty. That is very tiring and faith destroying. I believe that if we are working within our gifting area, we will enjoy what we are doing. Maybe I am wrong. Will not be the first time. But I will have a go anyway, but God's grace.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I know exactly how you feel. Because of this, I planted a church several years ago. We do nearly everything differently. Our service is in the afternoon. Instead of a sermon, we have a dialogue which is broken into several segments. Our service looks like a talk show. It integrates worship for all generations. When anyone under 35 visits, they want to come back. We incorporate video, computer graphics, you name it.

If you really go all out for it, it will try your faith in ways you cannot anticipate. You will discover that people you thought were friends are not, and they will betray you. You will discover truths about God you had not imagined. It will try your very soul. But it will be more than worth it!

[David_McQueen]

Hey Everyday

Good post. One thing I would say though is that I concur with your model you desire. I only differ in that sometimes we pursue doing something different and sometimes this is not what God calls for.

My personal journey has seen me move away from the centralised model of conference. It works for others, but just doesnt work for me. The nearest model I have found out of the SDA church that has worked for me is the Quaker one, and in the form of a small group fellowship. It is an amazing experience to worship with a Christian Quaker fellowship, and I love the emphasis they place on experiencing the presence of God in corporate worship.

I wish you well in your quest.

God Bless you,

Dave

[David_McQueen]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

D_Bishop said:

Go ahead.

I'll watch the compound conflagration on the news.

DB

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Having personally known people who perished in this, I find this statement to be one of the most insensitive I have heard on this board, to what was an otherwise simple request.

[Gerr]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

everyday said:

Not about who I want Gerry, Jesus is King <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"]OK. Jesus is King. Now, how is this organization going to be set up? Obviously, someone is going to have to make decisions as to, e.g. are we going to build a church building, where, etc. etc. should we go on TV, etc. etc. Or do you believe He would delegate any authority?[/]

Gerry

[cleverdics]

"What am I supposed to do? Move to australia and help start a new church? Your post was ridiculous from the start."

I feel abused by this reply. Did I deserve this? Maybe you meant to say: "I think your post was ridiculous from the start".

My reply to your message:

What can you do D_Bishop? What can you do for Jesus? What will you do with the rest of your life?

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

[cleverdics]

The Holy Spirit stired in me as I read your letter Ed. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/luxhello.gif" alt="" /> You did it! I'm excited. I head your warning though. I think God sent me back out into the world where I worked as a hotel bouncer (security guard) for a while to teach me how to fight and to show me what to fight for. I still to security but not in the pubs. To dangerous for an old block like me (43 <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Do you have a website. I'll look at your bio.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm so glad to meet someone who gets me <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

Jim

[cleverdics]

Thanks Dave. I am encouraged by the fact that there are others thinking outside for the square in this forum. I like that you had a look and have tried some things out. I don't know anything about the Quakers, but I have lead some group therapy in the past and can understand the dynamics that can happen in a small group. Even with total strangers and non-Christians I have had some amazing spiritual experiences.

Thanks for your encouragement.

[David_McQueen]

I was talking to my best friend who visted a church last Sunday, just as an example. As he walked in the elder there said to him welcome but we dont have any specific programme in place today the Holy Spirit just moved on him to have communion.

He said that whilst they had communion people prayed and testified and theyw just worshipped together as a small group. He said he couldnt belive that three hours passed so quickly.

At the end the elder says "The Holy Spirit has a way of showing up and organising things even when we don't know".

Now whilst I like organisation is this kind of movement and fellowship that I warm to.