Starting a new Church

June 5, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

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everyday said:

Not about who I want Gerry, Jesus is King <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"]OK. Jesus is King. Now, how is this organization going to be set up? Obviously, someone is going to have to make decisions as to, e.g. are we going to build a church building, where, etc. etc. should we go on TV, etc. etc. Or do you believe He would delegate any authority?[/]

Gerry

Hey Gerry

You want to know the bones of my ideas about church government. No bones yet. No structure yet. What do your suggest? What does the Holy Spirit say to you about this?

Will Jesus delegate authority? The Bible tells me that He delegated authority to the Holy Spirit whom He sent not long after He ascended to Heaven. So I would have to answer; yes He has delegated authority. We now obey the Holy Spirit.

John 15:26 (KJV)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 (KJV)

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Luke 11:13 (KJV)

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Does the Holy Spirit delegate authority? I don't think so. He gives us gifts to use to build up the body. All authority remains with God.

So who makes the decisions in this new organisation? God will. Can you believe that God will advise me in a real and personal way Gerry? Can you believe that He did so for Paul, and Barnabas and Peter and James and John etc. Can you believe? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

June 5, 2006

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David_McQueen said:

I was talking to my best friend who visted a church last Sunday, just as an example. As he walked in the elder there said to him welcome but we dont have any specific programme in place today the Holy Spirit just moved on him to have communion.

He said that whilst they had communion people prayed and testified and theyw just worshipped together as a small group. He said he couldnt belive that three hours passed so quickly.

At the end the elder says "The Holy Spirit has a way of showing up and organising things even when we don't know".

Now whilst I like organisation is this kind of movement and fellowship that I warm to.

Dave

Someone is going to say, I can feel it coming, that God is a God of order. But as I look out into His creation, I do nto see order as humankind would order it. The trees arn't all in a neat row. The waves aren't all even, the varieties are to many to mention. The vines grow through the trees as they please. Yet as a whole they make for a fabulous glimps of life as God planned it, order with spontaneity. I want to allow God's Spirit to flow, just as you have said your friend experienced. What gives us the right to bind up the Spirit of God with an order of service. And I am not just talking about what we do at church on Sabbath. I have friends who are really into fitness. I have asked them to run a church service one day that might help us, encourage us to become a bit fitter. They are talking about going for a walk in the mountains and having church up there. There fitness ministry will, I hope, become part of Everyday's ministry.

Just think of what the church could be if we all considered out daily work to be an integral part of the church, so that these businesses were an extension of our church life. As things are at the moment, our work life and our church life seem to be totally unrelated. That is partly why I have called my ministry Everyday Adventist.

June 5, 2006

Hi Everyday, Welcome to CA

I read your bio and I have noticed that you are recently reinstated into the body of Christ. Praise God for that. I left for a period of 10 years and went through a lot of "Stuff" and I am by the mercy of God blessed to be alive. I some times don't show my gratitude for all God has given me, done for and in me. I am making changes so I can be a more vibrant representative of Christ my Lord and God my Father.

One of things that I experienced and learned well, after returning to church in 1996, is that God is looking for a people who are united in Christ. I also saw that there is no other movement or church that is called after the 1844 disappointment and awakening. From that point on there is only one church and it will carry through till Christ returns.

There will be heresies (They must come in order to show those of us who are approved) there will be scandals, there will be many who leave because of mean spirited folks, there will be many who come in and there will be some great disappointments among us as we watch the church torn apart by some leaders who have gone astray. We are not unlike Israel of old.

Christ came to His own and His own rejected Him and the new covanant of promise was realized. There is no other covenant and therefore no other movement or church that Scripture fortells of. This is His remnant church which is asleep and laodicean. There tares are growing with the wheat and the time is coming when God's true children will stand out and those who are not God's children will leave the church.

The most important thing you can and should be concerned with is getting your self ready to meet with Jesus. This is good counsel for you and for me. I think you have a good idea in getting a group of people together who are wanting to have a deeper walk with God, but don't separate yourself from God's church, it will only lead to confusion dissention and ultimately your idea will fade as all others who have tried to separate themselves from God's people. (Not that this is your intention)

This SDA church has gone through many problems and have come up with solutions, some very good and some not so good, but we move on and grow together. Those who are called and empowered by God to guide the affairs of this church do so with prayer, the Bible, SOP and on the foundation of our forefathers. They look at the last issues and problems and make sure not to repeat these mistakes. They learn from our history. That way we can grow without going in circles by the wisdom gained from the past and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. There is still room for improvement and it will come, be patient God is in control.

Just last week I was sharing with Rudywoofs about my return to this church and what I saw. It was the same old same old. But God called me to share my testimony and to do what I could to help my brothers and sisters awake out of their sleep. So there definitely is a problem in our church, just be careful how you go about trying to fix it. I say this not to forbid or scare but for your own well being from one brother to another. Togetherness is the answer:

[:"red"] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. John 17:20

[/]

In Christ,

Norman

June 5, 2006

I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads people, but can I believe everyone who says that he/she is being led by the Holy Spirit?

BTW instead of re-inventing the wheel, tell me what's wrong with the present structure that could be improved on. And do you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead the present leadership?

Gerry

June 5, 2006

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there are others thinking outside for the square

Why does it seem so often that "outside the square" means "outside the church"?

Graeme

June 5, 2006

Norman, I am with you! I have returned to the SDA Church because I beleive it has the heart of belief that no other denomination has. Adventists are willing to live within the tension between faith and works, law and Grace and there is very few other denominations, if any, who are prepared to take that on. Both are true, and I think essential in the Kindom of God. Jesus demonstrated this by being full of grace, while fulfilling the law.

I do not want to leave the SDA church, for the reason above, but sometimes it seems like an Everest, to get members to trust God and be prepared to move, to change.

Thank you for your encouragement. I would like to hear your story.

June 5, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads people, but can I believe everyone who says that he/she is being led by the Holy Spirit?

BTW instead of re-inventing the wheel, tell me what's wrong with the present structure that could be improved on. And do you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead the present leadership?

Gerry

Hey Gerry. Thanks for thinking about this stuff. I don't beleive we need to beleive anyone. I don't think we can really trust any human being. I beleive we need to have a devotional life and trust that the Holy Spirit will speak to us, to me. I think the Bible needs to be our means of measureing whether a word is truth or not.

The present structure I am talking about is the local church. Is that what you are refering to.

I think the local church needs to become more open to the leading of the Holy Spirit. One, to lead us toward Jesus, His role, and secondly to lead us to our mission, Jesus to the community. When we reform our churches each year, I think we need to spend time in prayer, maybe weeks, with open minds as to what roles are necessary, and who God has called to be in a particular position. And, if someone comes forward during that prayer time, who believes God has called them to a minsitry, give them the freedom to perform. This is within obvious guidelines of course. You do not let a peadophile be in charge of your childrens ministries because he says God has called him to that.

I think the Holy Spirit can lead the presentleadership of the church, if they are prepared to listen and have a devotional life of their own. You may ask, How do I know that the Holy Spirit is not leading them? Jesus said, "They will know you are my followers if you have love for one another". I have worked in full time ministry, and this was not my experience of the ministry team, or administration (at that time). Things may have changed. I was looking for love, I needed it, but it was not there. I am of the impression that it still is not.

June 5, 2006

I love you Gerry, I don't like your anger, but I love you.

June 5, 2006

Hey there everyday -

This approach may be exactly what I have been looking for in the church, and appears to closely model the structure of the early (New Testament) churches.

It is the model I take in my life. To the extent that no major decision that changes my life course or that of my spouse is undertaken without a season of prayer, and asking for blinking neon sign posts.

I am raising one prophetically gifted daughter, and one prophetically gifted daughter has moved out of the house. Neither of them rise to the level of prophecy appropriate for more than our family, but I have found myself prophesying on occasion as well. My strongest gift however is in the spiritual warfare arena, not the prophetic arena.

The gifts are not lost nor forgotten, just there are few who will walk the road necessary to receive them. It is a very difficult, painful road, the rewards of which are not on this earth.

June 5, 2006

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D_Bishop said:

What am I supposed to do? Move to australia and help start a new church? Your post was ridiculous from the start.

DB

Wow... what side of the bed did YOU get up on? Here... have some coffee. Or tea if you prefer. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

June 5, 2006

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David_McQueen said:

Hey Everyday

Good post. One thing I would say though is that I concur with your model you desire. I only differ in that sometimes we pursue doing something different and sometimes this is not what God calls for.

My personal journey has seen me move away from the centralised model of conference. It works for others, but just doesnt work for me. The nearest model I have found out of the SDA church that has worked for me is the Quaker one, and in the form of a small group fellowship. It is an amazing experience to worship with a Christian Quaker fellowship, and I love the emphasis they place on experiencing the presence of God in corporate worship.

I wish you well in your quest.

God Bless you,

Dave

I am finding more and more "called out" Christians who choose to fellowship in a small group environment. The studies they engage in range the entire spectrum of topics; discipleship, prayer principles, women's interests, covenant marriage, what faith is and what faith enables, prophecy, spiritual warfare, the armor of Abba, Jesus' life and ministries (did you know He had several?), covenants, witnessing, and... I'm sure there are more topics I've covered in various small group settings, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Those groups tend to be vibrant, growing, and reach more people for Jesus in a year than the traditional congregations they were spawned from.

There is a peace, and reverential, joyful worship of our Creator King in most of them that I cannot live my life without.

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

everyday said:

Not about who I want Gerry, Jesus is King <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"]OK. Jesus is King. Now, how is this organization going to be set up? Obviously, someone is going to have to make decisions as to, e.g. are we going to build a church building, where, etc. etc. should we go on TV, etc. etc. Or do you believe He would delegate any authority?[/]

Gerry

You are thinking too traditionally, Gerry. What is being proposed is much more along the lines of a small group ministry, with some pastoral oversight, but primarily a small group discipleship kind of ministry.

In this type of a ministry where the small group is focused on study, prayer, lifting one another up in a real, daily, intense way, church buildings do not come into play, nor does TV, nor any of the other areas you seem to be touching on.

It's a much more intimate fellowship than that. It's usually organized in member's homes. When the group grows too large to meet in one of the homes of the members, a second group with core, mature members as well as newly called out members is begun. Many times they will choose to meet together out of doors during good weather once a month to increase their fellowshipping opportunities, and witnessing opportunities.

It is very much the kind of grass roots effort that Jesus was so effective in instituting during is brief sojourn on earth.

It works because it's real.

June 5, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

I do believe that the Holy Spirit leads people, but can I believe everyone who says that he/she is being led by the Holy Spirit?

BTW instead of re-inventing the wheel, tell me what's wrong with the present structure that could be improved on. And do you believe that the Holy Spirit can lead the present leadership?

Gerry

No Gerry, you can't believe what they SAY. But you can believe the fruits in their life. The Bible lists them plainly. You can also believe if you test what they say against the Scriptures and it is sound.

Anything else, without walking it out, is noise.

June 5, 2006

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Planey said:

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there are others thinking outside for the square

Why does it seem so often that "outside the square" means "outside the church"?

Graeme

Because everyone (edited to add:) make that most, who uses it thinks "church" means SDA instead of Body of Christ.

I am outside the "church" in that sense, but I am NOT outside the Body of my Beloved's Bride.

June 6, 2006

Hey Planey

Thanks for dropping in. Outside the squaer means"from a different perspective" to me. It means stepping out from what is normally said, or done and having a look at whether there is a nother way. It has nothing to do with going outside the church for me. I think the church has room for a lot more than it currently holds. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/luxhello.gif" alt="" />

June 6, 2006

Wow Clio

That's really comeing out! Well done <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" /> Not too many with the courage to say that they are gifted these days. I want t ask you to pray for Everyday Adventist, if you are willing. Not anything special, just what the Holy Spirit places in your mind to pray, if anything. If you are given something for me, I will listen and, as you would expect, weight it up against scripture. I will not reject you!

So glad to meet you.

June 6, 2006

Good for you everyday.

However I have seen (in the past) a number of other people who have claimed to be thinking "outside the square" in much the same fashion as you have used the phrase.

They have since all left the church.

I am wary, therefore.

Graeme

June 6, 2006

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everyday said:

Wow Clio

That's really comeing out! Well done <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/23_30_104.gif" alt="" /> Not too many with the courage to say that they are gifted these days. I want t ask you to pray for Everyday Adventist, if you are willing. Not anything special, just what the Holy Spirit places in your mind to pray, if anything. If you are given something for me, I will listen and, as you would expect, weight it up against scripture. I will not reject you!

So glad to meet you.

No probably not. I can hear the raised eyebrows already! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Any who claim a prophetic gift must be taken with a grain of salt. Remember that according to Jesus ALL things shall be established from the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses. Make sure you receive the requisite confirmation, and make sure that one of those witnesses is the Bible.

Everyday, you must understand. I will happily pray for you, but I say again, my small tinge of the prophetic gift is not my strongest gift. And rarely does it apply more than as a strong pattern recognition applied to abstract concepts. It is just strong enough to allow me to raise my daughters who dream dreams and see Jesus.

Be wary of those who claim to dream dreams. True Jesus dreams always come in pairs. Closely study all the prophets and those to whom dreams and visions were given. There is a pattern to them that allows one to recognize their Holy origin. First is the original dream, then a second which repeats and enlarges, with a sign. The sign happens and then the dreams begin to fulfill. And the dreams will never contradict the Bible. They will repeat and enlarge upon what is there. Depending on the topic, the dreams may continue to repeat and enlarge upon the subject until all has been fulfilled.

This pattern of repetition and enlargement (the adding of details) is repeated through out the Bible.

Were it not that He has appeared to my daughters at the very moment of their immersion in baptism in the arms of two pastors as they spoke the words and baptized them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, to my shame, I probably would not have believed.

My own gifts lie in the areas of spiritual warfare among others.

I will say this, though. I would not wish the life of a prophet on anyone! :shudder: It is a very hard walk indeed. I have often thought that EGW could have used a sympathetic human shoulder.... and I don't mean her husband, but another woman friend who truly understood what it means to be a prophet.

A prophet is given to speak so much and no more, only what is given to them. The slightest disobedience yields tremendous heart-ache, turmoil, chastisement and the walking out of the consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are mitigated through True Jesus mercy, but consequences of choices must be walked out. Probably the worst heart-ache is to have the need to speak, and no message to speak because it has been removed through disobedience. *sigh* It is through such walking out, I think, that false prophets arose who could delude Israel.

Such a punishment must be walked out, accompanied by a continued repentance, pressing in to Jesus, study, and total surrender to His will in the life of the disobedient one. And a prayerful hope that mercy will obtain, and the damage not be so great that the disobedient one cannot be used in that way in the future.

To my shame, I was given a message to speak, and though I have done so, I have not done so to the level it was intended. I allowed ridicule and derision to silence me for a time. Though I was not disobedient, neither was I fully obedient to the spirit of what was required.

*shakes head*

In my weakness, His Strength is perfection!

June 6, 2006

Everyday, your kind of church is what I have craved for the last few years, to be Holy Spirit lead first and foremost, to do only if God says so and to be small, intimate, honest and safe, but most of all in Christ.

Go with God and know that as long as your search for a deeper relationship with him is your desire he will direct your paths.

Blessings

Fifiqueen

June 6, 2006

Amen fifiqueen. Very wise advice. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/amen2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif" alt="" />

June 7, 2006

Hey Fifi

Thanks! I will go with God for the rest of the day. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You speak of craving, like a desire that cannot be satisfied. I believe this craving is for Jesus and only the Holy Spirit can fulfil it in us. I am not sure a church can fulfill this craving though. I think church is just a part of that infilling. Most of it, I believe comes from our private time with God.

Have you found a church that meets your needs yet?

Can Everyday Adventist help? It is new, in development and way open to people who want to find a place where they can function, online or off? Maybe you could start a branch in the UK?

I will send you tag to our new prayer warrior to ask God to guide you to a church that helps to fill you up. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/idea.gif" alt="" />

Gods Love

June 10, 2006

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everyday said:

I love you Gerry, I don't like your anger, but I love you.

[:"blue"]Anger? Friend, I have none expressed in any of my posts. Just frank questions. [/]

Gerry

June 10, 2006

And the things you mention cannot happen within the structure of the church?

I make no apologies for thinking traditionally. Many traditions are good and have long history behind them for good reason. I ditch tradition only when it does not square with the Bible.

BTW, the SDA church here where I moved to is small, only about 30 some members. So far I have found nothing but love in the fellowship.

Gerry

June 13, 2006

Gerry, do you love me? Do you love me Gerry?

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />Everyday

June 16, 2006

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everyday said:

Gerry, do you love me? Do you love me Gerry?

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />Everyday

[:"blue"]Of course, my friend, right or wrong, I love you!!! [/]

Gerry

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