Lucifer

[8thdaypriest]

I found a service called my.wordtracker.com.   I can search to find out how many people searched the net for words related to studies on my website prophecyviewpoint.com.  This service has proved very helpful.  I discovered that very few people were searching for things like "the law" or the "genealogy of Christ".   Words like "dominion" and "millennium" had high search numbers, but the word searched most often was "Lucifer".  Yes.  There is a new TV show by that name.  Still,  I thought I would update/edit my study on Lucifer, and then change my monthly google ad to "Lucifer" to see if I can pull a few folks to my website.  My hubby and I pay for the google ad.   Google promises that my ad will be on page one or two of search results for key words in the ad.  The ad runs until the number of folks clicking on my ad meets the number I had paid for.   ($500 for $5000 clicks on my ad)  Last 4 years, the ad has produced very good results. 

How about helping me with my study on Lucifer.  You all may make some points I had not considered. 

I like this verse in the English translation of the Septuagint.

Isaiah 14:12 "How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent orders to all the nations is crushed to the earth."  (LXA)

The New Jerusalem Bible makes the whole passage a question.

Isaiah 14:12 "How did you come to fall from the heavens, Daystar, son of Dawn? How did you come to be thrown to the ground, conqueror of nations? (NJB)

Was the name "Daystar" just his name, or did it carry the idea that he was created first? 

How do we know Lucifer was "created" ?

In what way does Lucifer send orders to all the nations? 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings 8thdaypriest,

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How about helping me with my study on Lucifer.  You all may make some points I had not considered. 

Perhaps you have not considered that Lucifer is a poetical title for the King of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:4–23 (KJV): 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

Kind regards Trevor

[JoeMo]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In what way does Lucifer send orders to all the nations?

Many powerful people in powerful positions are in league with the devil.  I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are in power because they have sold out to satan.  Through the influence of these powerful leaders (I have some names in mind, but won't mention them for fear of turning this into a political thread), people are turning away from God's values and towards the values of the evil one.

I will mention a couple groups who IMHO are preparing the world for the reign of the antichrist - the entertainment and news media groups.

[8thdaypriest]

57 verses in the NT contain the word Devil.

49 verses in the whole Bible contain the name Satan.

Interesting that the words "keep us from evil" in the Lord's Prayer in the KJV, are in other translations quoted as "keep us from the Evil One".  Mat 6:13 and Luke 11:4.

Every translation but the King James quotes Jesus praying "protect them from the Evil One" (John 17:15).

2 Thessalonians 3:3 "But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one."  (NKJ)

Revelation 12:10 "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, "The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers and sisters, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down." (NET)

Appears obvious that Christ and His apostles believed "the Devil" and his army of fallen angels/demons are very real. 

Here is Strong's definition of Devil:

1228 dia,boloj diabolos {dee-ab'-ol-os}
Meaning:  1) prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely 1a) a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer, 2) metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
Origin:  from 1225; TDNT - 2:72,150; adj
Usage:  AV - devil 35, false accuser 2, slanderer 1; 38 

Hmmmmm sounds like politics or media today.  Wow!  The Devil is at work - big time.

Here is Strong's on Satan:

OT  07854 !j'f' satan {saw-tawn'}
Meaning:  1) adversary, one who withstands 1a) adversary (in general - personal or national) 2) superhuman adversary 2a) Satan (as noun pr)

NT  4567 Satana/j Satanas {sat-an-as'}
Meaning:  1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to 1a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

Destroyer is another descriptive name. 

"the LORD will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you." (Exo 12:23 NAS)

 1 Corinthians 10:10 "Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer." (NAS)

 Jeremiah 4:7 The lion is gone up from his lair, he has roused himself to the destruction of the nations, and has gone forth out of his place, to make the land desolate; and the cities shall be destroyed, so as to be without inhabitant." (Jer 4:7 LXA)

Appears to compare Satan the Destroyer, to "the lion" - king of Babylon.

Revelation 9:11 "And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon." (NKJ)

Two more names, which both mean Destroyer, destruction or ruin.

Always good to know your Enemy.

[8thdaypriest]

Is there a verse anywhere that says the Devil is in charge of a place called "Hell" ?

[8thdaypriest]

When exactly was the "accuser of the brethren" cast down? 

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

This looks future.  Rev 12:10 is at the 7th trumpet. 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings 8thdaypriest,

Perhaps you have not considered that Lucifer is a poetical title for the King of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:4–23 (KJV): 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! 5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. 6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. 7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. 8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. 9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? 11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. 21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. 22 For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD. 23 I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water: and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the LORD of hosts.

Kind regards Trevor

I don't think that Lucifer is just a title for the King of Babylon.  I think this passage is speaking about two things, one is a TYPE of the other.  The King of Babylon is a TYPE of Lucifer, the one "fallen from heaven". 

After the LORD breaks the rod of Lucifer (which he used to smite the nations), "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing."

Interesting that Lucifer "made the world as a wilderness" - an "uninhabited place". 

9 Hell [Sheol] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

This could happen at the Glorious Return.  According to Daniel 12:2-3, multitudes are resurrected on that day, "many to shame and everlasting contempt".  These wicked kings - resurrected - gloat that Satan has been brought as low as they. 

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Satan is cast into the "bottomless pit" - the abyss, when Christ returns in glory.

Revelation 20:1 "Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key of the Abyss in his hand and an enormous chain. 2 He overpowered the dragon, that primeval serpent which is the devil and Satan, and chained him up for a thousand years. (NJB)

[8thdaypriest]

When is this battle?

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night."

This looks - at first reading - like it will happen in the very last moments of this age.  

Verses 12-17 of the chapter, suggest otherwise.  The Devil goes on fighting, trying to destroy "the remnant of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." 

This makes it seem that Satan was "cast out of heaven" shortly after the resurrection of Christ. 

Or, could it be that "the remnant of her seed" will be those of "the rest of the dead" who believe and serve Christ, and Satan (newly released from his prison in the pit for 1000 years) is making war, knowing he does not have much time left. 

Obviously - at the time of Job - Satan was still able to come before God to accuse.  So Satan was not yet "cast to the earth" at that time. 

[8thdaypriest]

One thing that hit me while looking at the definitions of Satan and Devil, was that other people are not our enemies.  Satan and his angels - they are the enemy.   People are just ignorantly or stupidly being used by our Enemy. 

[stinsonmarri]

On 10/25/2019 at 3:27 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Was the name "Daystar" just his name, or did it carry the idea that he was created first? 

How do we know Lucifer was "created" ?

In what way does Lucifer send orders to all the nations? 

Rachel: Lucifer in Hebrew is actually morning star:

The morning star: - lucifer. Strong Hebrew Dictionary  However it is used for all the angels which also found in Job 37:8 Lucifer was created and he was the highest cherub, then Gabriel who took his place. Stars symbolizes angels in the Bible in certain places. The City Tyre of the Phonecians at one time like all the Canaanite worshiped THE MOST HIGH! As I have stated before the Hebrews adopted an Afrikan language created by the Phonecians. They were so proud that YAHWEH related to them to Lucifer so Ezekiel told how Lucifer was created perfect but became sinful. So in these Text of Scriptures you see how he rule this nation like all nations of the earth except those who followed YAHWEH!

Praise ye HIM, all HIS angels: praise ye HIM, all HIS hosts. Praise HIM, ye heavens of Heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. Let them praise THE NAME of YAHWEH: for HE Commanded, and they were created. Psa 148:2, 4, 5

Son of man take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the SOVEREIGN YAHWEH; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the Garden of ELOHIYM; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the Holy Mountain of ELOHIYM; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the Mountain of ELOHIYM: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Eze 28:12-19 

Oh other angels fell with him and he gives them orders. Rev 13: 2 provides this as well. Now, I pray and hope I have answered your questions!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

On 10/26/2019 at 7:46 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

One thing that hit me while looking at the definitions of Satan and Devil, was that other people are not our enemies.  Satan and his angels - they are the enemy.   People are just ignorantly or stupidly being used by our Enemy. 

Rachel: I am sorry, why would you say people are stupid? Ignorant yes, but not stupid, YAHWEH does not make people stupid! Some people have mental diseases and they are not stupid. We can think and we make choices rather to be good or bad. Satan tempts all of us and YAHWEH plead with us to pray and get understanding. We do not have to listen to false teachings, liars, adulterers, murders, thieves etc. Many choose to accept that path that the Bible says is broad. Most do not choose the straight and narrow path because they have to give up all of their wants and false beliefs and mistreatment of others.

Finally, we were made in the RESEMBLANCE and LIKENESS of THE THREE ALMIGHTY ONES! Let's not put anyone down!

Blessings!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Rachel, you're braver than I am.  There's no way I would try to put together a study on Lucifer aka Satan aka The Devil.

Tread carefully.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/3/2019 at 6:45 PM, stinsonmarri said:

Rachel: I am sorry, why would you say people are stupid? Ignorant yes, but not stupid, YAHWEH does not make people stupid! Some people have mental diseases and they are not stupid. We can think and we make choices rather to be good or bad. Satan tempts all of us and YAHWEH plead with us to pray and get understanding. We do not have to listen to false teachings, liars, adulterers, murders, thieves etc. Many choose to accept that path that the Bible says is broad. Most do not choose the straight and narrow path because they have to give up all of their wants and false beliefs and mistreatment of others.

Finally, we were made in the RESEMBLANCE and LIKENESS of THE THREE ALMIGHTY ONES! Let's not put anyone down!

Blessings!

Stinsonmarri,

Do sense a little projection.  Aren't you putting me down here? 

I wasn't putting anyone down.  I said that folks are usually NOT purely evil.  Most are simply ignorant OR stupid (meaning acting stupidly).  A young man who gets drunk and then drives is acting stupidly.  He cannot claim ignorance.  

[JoeMo]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:26 PM, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Rachel, you're braver than I am.  There's no way I would try to put together a study on Lucifer aka Satan aka The Devil.

Tread carefully.

Yeah.  I already know as much as I want to know about the evil one.  I'm sure you know what I mean and then some.

[8thdaypriest]

It's NOT that I "want to know more".  It's that I want to help folks out there who might find true freedom in Christ, if they just knew they could.    prophecyviewpoint.com now is getting 45K+ visitors average per month.  That's a lot of people searching for a better understanding of things Biblical.  If the name "Lucifer" is the word most often searched, I want to use that to draw people to ProphecyViewpoint.   They might find more than they expected. 

You know as well as I do that believers become targets of the Evil One.  How many of us have experienced harassment from the dark side?  A lot of folks don't realize that a constant repeating thought (eg I'm ugly. or I'm stupid. or "No one will like you." or "I'll get it wrong."  etc. etc. etc.) may be demonic harassment/deception. 

I'm not much for addressing or speaking to demons - eg commanding them to leave, not return, not send substitutes, go to the pit, etc. etc..   Demons only leave if forced to do so by God's more powerful angels. 

I am for verbally - out loud, renouncing past actions/behaviors which could give the Evil Ones any advantage or claim allowing them access to the mind, to deceive or harass.  Such verbal confession/repentance need not be public.  Angels can "hear". 

Though I do agree with the AA program step which involves apologizing to those we have hurt/harmed. 

I am for praying "Our Father in Heaven . . . deliver us from the Evil One".   I'm also for claiming the promises. 

2 Thessalonians 3:3 "But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the Evil One." (NKJ)

I pray for protection every day. 

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/13/2019 at 4:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Stinsonmarri,

Do sense a little projection.  Aren't you putting me down here? 

I wasn't putting anyone down.  I said that folks are usually NOT purely evil.  Most are simply ignorant OR stupid (meaning acting stupidly).  A young man who gets drunk and then drives is acting stupidly.  He cannot claim ignorance.  

 

On 11/13/2019 at 4:25 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Stinsonmarri,

Do sense a little projection.  Aren't you putting me down here? 

I wasn't putting anyone down.  I said that folks are usually NOT purely evil.  Most are simply ignorant OR stupid (meaning acting stupidly).  A young man who gets drunk and then drives is acting stupidly.  He cannot claim ignorance.  

Rachel: I wasn't putting you down, I was just disagreeing with you on the word choice you used. Well stupid is not acting stupid. It means having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense. I  believe in understanding what words mean. Dealing not only with ancient Biblical history, I was a counselor and had to deal with problem youth. One of the things that had a bad effect on young people were words. The words are "stupid, dumb, crazy, ugly, you never going to mount to anything," These harmful words took a terrible down fall on their lives. The root of the problem is that it came from adults, parents, relatives, teacher etc. I had to work with them to eradicate the false concepts they felt about themselves. It caused them to have behaviour problems and I had to work with them to make them feel good about themselves. So, this stuck with me even, as a Bible worker, when dealing with people. How we make them feel in their relationship with understanding the Bible. Did  I make mistakes, yes, I did but I learn words do hurt and we should never put a person down by the words we use. If you do ugly things or act ugly or unkind and I will express that as well!

If you felt that I was putting down please know that I wasn't at all.

Blessings!

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Rachel: I wasn't putting you down, I was just disagreeing with you on the word choice you used. Well stupid is not acting stupid. It means having or showing a great lack of intelligence or common sense.

Yup.  Getting drunk and then driving a car shows "a great lack of common sense". 

Hence "stupid". 

mid 16th century: from French stupide or Latin stupidus, from stupere  (which became our word "stupor")

If you're stuporous, you're in a stupor, or not quite fully conscious. In Latin, stupor means "insensibility, numbness, or dullness," from stupere, or "be stunned."

To drive intoxicated is to drive in a "stuporous state".  The person was rendered "stupid" by the alcohol. 

I stand by my word choice.  I have a Master's in Counseling Services, and I doubt anyone on this present thread is a poor young person likely to be crushed by that word choice in this particular context. 

[stinsonmarri]

36 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yup.  Getting drunk and then driving a car shows "a great lack of common sense". 

Hence "stupid". 

mid 16th century: from French stupide or Latin stupidus, from stupere  (which became our word "stupor")

If you're stuporous, you're in a stupor, or not quite fully conscious. In Latin, stupor means "insensibility, numbness, or dullness," from stupere, or "be stunned."

To drive intoxicated is to drive in a "stuporous state".  The person was rendered "stupid" by the alcohol. 

I stand by my word choice.  I have a Master's in Counseling Services, and I doubt anyone on this present thread is a poor young person likely to be crushed by that word choice in this particular context. 

How would you know Rachel? Even the Bible says to be humble, love your enemies, say kind words! So your Master supersede YAHSHUA THE CREATOR? I think not because Matt 5:2-12 came from HIM. I never read when HE call anyone stupid HE wink over their ignorance. 

Peace!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I doubt anyone on this present thread is a poor young person likely to be crushed by that word choice in this particular context. 

totally agree with you, Rachel...

 

[stinsonmarri]

On 10/26/2019 at 7:03 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Is there a verse anywhere that says the Devil is in charge of a place called "Hell" ?

NO! Hell is the grave! Ancient people all believed that dead really do not die. That is what the serpent told Mrs. Adam at the tree. "Ye shall not surely die." Lucifer has an ox face, as one of the four faces, and his feet are actually calf hooves!

 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.Eze 1:7, 10

 And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone. And every one had four faces: the first face was the face of a cherub, and the second face was the face of a man, and the third the face of a lion, and the fourth the face of an eagle. Eze 10:9, 14

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of ELOHIYM: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15, 16  

The Bible tells that being a cherub is naturally an ox. The main deities of the ancient people was an ox or an eagle that had large wings. They also believed that the dead goes or lives beneath the ground or in dark caves. The Indo-Europeans believed it was a deep hole where the dead were punish continually. The Christians and Islam brought in the demon in prison in this hole that had everlasting fire and torment of the quilty dead. It was control by this ox like creature with a pitch fork! All of this was a lie with a hint of truth. Lucifer's angels are in prison and the Greek word "ge," does not mean just earth. It means any global place that has a land mass or soil. Lucifer was not kick down into a perfect world at all. He could only by himself tempt them at the tree until they sinned. He was kicked out somewhere on some place that had soil or land mass. It does not have a firmament either. He can roam but his angels are on locked down and can only get permission to leave but must return. 

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings stinsonmarri,

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The Bible tells that being a cherub is naturally an ox.

I suggest that the standard view of the cherubim is with four faces as described in Ezekiel 1, and a cherub is not predominately an ox. They are symbolic creatures, the face of the lion speaking of a king, the eagle Divine or spiritual qualities, the calf servant and sacrificial qualities, and the man human qualities and possibly priestly qualities. The feet of an ox is speaking of threshing in judgement. One suggestion why Ezekiel says “the face of a cherub” is because of the position of the face of the ox on the vail. Those priests that ministered in the Holy Place would see the ox face on embroidery of the vail. The fact that the cherubim and seraphim are symbolic is evident from the fact that there are many variations in features and wings.

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

43 minutes ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings stinsonmarri,

I suggest that the standard view of the cherubim is with four faces as described in Ezekiel 1, and a cherub is not predominately an ox. They are symbolic creatures, the face of the lion speaking of a king, the eagle Divine or spiritual qualities, the calf servant and sacrificial qualities, and the man human qualities and possibly priestly qualities. The feet of an ox is speaking of threshing in judgement. One suggestion why Ezekiel says “the face of a cherub” is because of the position of the face of the ox on the vail. Those priests that ministered in the Holy Place would see the ox face on embroidery of the vail. The fact that the cherubim and seraphim are symbolic is evident from the fact that there are many variations in features and wings.

Kind regards Trevor

Trevor: I gave the Scriptures and what it clearly said. You and I do not agree on Biblical Scriptures. I presented it is up to everyone to read IT FOR THEMSELVES, the Bible said it! I study and search the Bible and each of us makes our own choice. I never read anything about the position the ox on the vail. These were the four cherubim that carry the Throne of THE MOST HIGH! If you are referring to the patterns given to Moses and Ezekiel the cherubim always showed the face like a male being. Now, I feel the reason for this is they always did when appeared before people that follow YAHWEH! The reason is for comfort. Remember I said I feel.

Where do you read they are symbolic, this is how they are made according to the Bible. You have no proof whatsoever they were symbolic! That is not true nor is it in the Bible about the eagle divine or spiritual and neither the calf what! SERVANT where did this come from? You know it is sad the Bible says very clear not add or subtract and boy had you did it making up I am sorry lies! I say it because it is not in the Bible. Plus, as I said earlier I was speaking  of the description that Ezekiel saw. I did not make up anything but stated exactly what is in THE BIBLE.

Blessings! 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

38 minutes ago, stinsonmarri said:

Where do you read they are symbolic, this is how they are made according to the Bible. You have no proof whatsoever they were symbolic!

In Ezekiel 1 there were four cherubim and each had four faces and four wings each and the tips of their wings were touching another cherubim. The seraphim in Isaiah 6 have six wings used in three different ways and no real indication of their faces, and the living creatures of Revelation 6 have one face each and six wings, but these are unique in that the four have the different faces of lion, calf, man and a flying eagle.

Ezekiel 1:6–10 (KJV): 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Isaiah 6:2 (KJV): Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Revelation 4:6–8 (KJV): 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Now unless you believe that God has created three different varieties, these are symbolic creatures, and the different environments are also connected with their unique differences. 

Kind regards Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

11 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

In Ezekiel 1 there were four cherubim and each had four faces and four wings each and the tips of their wings were touching another cherubim. The seraphim in Isaiah 6 have six wings used in three different ways and no real indication of their faces, and the living creatures of Revelation 6 have one face each and six wings, but these are unique in that the four have the different faces of lion, calf, man and a flying eagle.

Ezekiel 1:6–10 (KJV): 6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. 7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf’s foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. 8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. 9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. 10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

Isaiah 6:2 (KJV): Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

Revelation 4:6–8 (KJV): 6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Now unless you believe that God has created three different varieties, these are symbolic creatures, and the different environments are also connected with their unique differences. 

Kind regards Trevor

TrevoL: The problem is you are not noticing that there are two types of angels; cherubims  and seraphims. The differences are the number of wings they have cherubims have four and the seraphims has six. Where do you see three different varieties? Now, it is simple why the Greeks in their manuscripts said beast because three of the faces are animals. They do not understand as they should have. That's why a few of us Bible scholars feel that the original writings were in Hebrew. However, the NT says Amen to the OT, why? Because Ezekiel made it very clear they were living creatures. The Pishitta Scripts have living creatures as well. 

For MY THOUGHTS are not your thoughts, neither are your ways MY WAYS, saith the YAHWEH. Isa 55:8  

  For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are MY WAY Higher than your ways, and my thoughts than YOUR THOUGHTS. Isa 55:9

My kind suggestion to you, to stop reading into something that is not there. There might be more ranks then the two we know of. We don't know because it has not been shared with us. If it was symbolic, the Bible would have said so!

And their bodies will be on the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom, and Egypt, where our MASTER was crucified. Rev 11:8

Now, the underline is symbolic because YAHSHUA was crucified in Jerusalem! That was made clear. You nor I can figure out THE MOST HIGH, not HIS THOUGHTS, not HIS WAYS. If HE SAID living creatures with four faces then that is exactly what it is! If three of the four look like animals then that is exactly how they look. It is so sad, we cannot accept what the Bible actually says, but will believe fly saucers and alien creatures that are so distorted it is unbelievable. If you choose to believe in something that the Bible DOES NOT SAY, fine, believe it! You have that right! I choose to believe that cherubims are living creatures who had four faces an ox, the second face like a male, and the third the face a lion, and the fourth  face an eagle. In both Ezekiel and Revelation. Simple!

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

2 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The problem is you are not noticing that there are two types of angels; cherubims  and seraphims. The differences are the number of wings they have cherubims have four and the seraphims has six. Where do you see three different varieties?

Please read the three quotations again. The cherubim of Ezekiel 1 had four heads on each body and four wings on each body, the seraphim of Isaiah 6 had six wings each, and the living creatures of Revelation had only one head on each body with four different varieties and each body had six wings similar in number to the seraphim, not the cherubim of Ezekiel 1. One of my favourite questions is to ask what is the significance of the activity of the six wings of Isaiah 6? I believe that it is very interesting and informative, both in Isaiah’s time and the ministry of Jesus.

 

Kind regards

Trevor