Lucifer

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

Please read the three quotations again. The cherubim of Ezekiel 1 had four heads on each body and four wings on each body, the seraphim of Isaiah 6 had six wings each, and the living creatures of Revelation had only one head on each body with four different varieties and each body had six wings similar in number to the seraphim, not the cherubim of Ezekiel 1. One of my favourite questions is to ask what is the significance of the activity of the six wings of Isaiah 6? I believe that it is very interesting and informative, both in Isaiah’s time and the ministry of Jesus.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

I read it and presented it! I am not concern about the wings because they are apart of the living creatures. The living creatures are angels; four of them carry YAHWEH'S Throne! They administer unto YAHWEH and YAHSHUA! 

 

Happy Sabbath!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

I read it and presented it! I am not concern about the wings because they are apart of the living creatures. The living creatures are angels; four of them carry YAHWEH'S Throne! They administer unto YAHWEH and YAHSHUA! 

Please read it again carefully. You may not care about the wings, but there are six wings of the living creatures in Revelation 4 and there are four wings of the cherubim in Ezekiel 1. You have also ignored the difference in the faces. Each body in Ezekiel 1 has four faces each, while those of Revelation 4 have only one face and the four living creatures are different, having different faces. Do you really believe that God has created beings with four different faces each, and similar beings with one face each, but different? Are the wings suitable to transport these creatures from heaven to earth? The angels do not carry the throne in Isaiah 6 as the throne is stationary, in the Temple, in the Most Holy Place. Where Uzziah failed, Jesus has been enthroned.

 

The subject of the cherubim is a large one, and it commences in Genesis 3 where the cherubim are placed to protect, keep, or guard the way of the tree of life and hence everlasting life. They appear in the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle and Temple and are associated with the Ark of the Covenant and the Mercy Seat and hence again everlasting life. They appear in Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10, and they are not static, but have elements of judgement against Judah and her idolatry. The Seraphim appear in Isaiah 6 and it is a Temple scene, but here we do not encounter Cherubim in the Most Holy, nor a Mercy Seat, nor an Ark, but a King / Priest enthroned in Glory, and hence with everlasting life and the Seraphim surrounding the throne and singing praise. The Seraphim and Cherubim are thus related in concept and function, but the Seraphim represent a particular aspect of the message of Isaiah and the ministry of Jesus. John 12 is some indication of the meaning of the activity of the six wings of the Seraphim of Isaiah 6. John 12 also encompasses some parts of the theme of the Book of Isaiah summarised in Isaiah 6 and Isaiah 53.

 

One clue to the symbology of the faces is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. It is considered that the other faces are the banners of the other subdivisions of the four-fold camp of Israel; The Ox for Ephraim, the Eagle for Dan and the Man for Reuben. Jesus in his ministry incorporated all the Divine qualities represented by the four faces, and some suggest that the four Gospels could represent in part these perspectives, with some overlap, Matthew the Lion the King, Mark the Ox the Servant, Luke the Man the Humanity and the Priest, and John the Eagle the Divine the Spiritual.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/22/2019 at 8:20 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

Please read it again carefully. You may not care about the wings, but there are six wings of the living creatures in Revelation 4 and there are four wings of the cherubim in Ezekiel 1. You have also ignored the difference in the faces. Each body in Ezekiel 1 has four faces each, while those of Revelation 4 have only one face and the four living creatures are different, having different faces. Do you really believe that God has created beings with four different faces each, and similar beings with one face each, but different? Are the wings suitable to transport these creatures from heaven to earth? The angels do not carry the throne in Isaiah 6 as the throne is stationary, in the Temple, in the Most Holy Place. Where Uzziah failed, Jesus has been enthroned.

 

The subject of the cherubim is a large one, and it commences in Genesis 3 where the cherubim are placed to protect, keep, or guard the way of the tree of life and hence everlasting life. They appear in the Most Holy Place of the Tabernacle and Temple and are associated with the Ark of the Covenant and the Mercy Seat and hence again everlasting life. They appear in Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10, and they are not static, but have elements of judgement against Judah and her idolatry. The Seraphim appear in Isaiah 6 and it is a Temple scene, but here we do not encounter Cherubim in the Most Holy, nor a Mercy Seat, nor an Ark, but a King / Priest enthroned in Glory, and hence with everlasting life and the Seraphim surrounding the throne and singing praise. The Seraphim and Cherubim are thus related in concept and function, but the Seraphim represent a particular aspect of the message of Isaiah and the ministry of Jesus. John 12 is some indication of the meaning of the activity of the six wings of the Seraphim of Isaiah 6. John 12 also encompasses some parts of the theme of the Book of Isaiah summarised in Isaiah 6 and Isaiah 53.

 

One clue to the symbology of the faces is that Jesus is called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. It is considered that the other faces are the banners of the other subdivisions of the four-fold camp of Israel; The Ox for Ephraim, the Eagle for Dan and the Man for Reuben. Jesus in his ministry incorporated all the Divine qualities represented by the four faces, and some suggest that the four Gospels could represent in part these perspectives, with some overlap, Matthew the Lion the King, Mark the Ox the Servant, Luke the Man the Humanity and the Priest, and John the Eagle the Divine the Spiritual.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

TrevorL: First let me apologize about the wings because everything is important. They, however are not symbolic. As, I studied commenting with you yesterday, I notice something about the angels in Revelation:

And a sea of glass was before the throne, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne and around the throne were four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind.  And the four living creatures each one had six wings around, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Master YAHWEH Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come!Rev 4:6, 8 HRB

Now, for many years I thought they were the cherubims, who carry the Throne. But, yesterday that was a shocked to me because I had overlooked it. Then I turned to Isaiah:

In the year that King Uzziah died, then I saw YAHWEH sitting on a Throne, High and Lifted Up. And HIS Train filled the Temple. Above it stood the seraphims. Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face; and with two he covered his feet; and with two he flew. And one cried to the other and said, Holy, holy, holy is YAHWEH of Hosts; all the earth is full of HIS GLORY! Isa 6:1-3 

I realize that in Temple there is a Throne and the seraphims circle around this Throne day and night giving Glorious praise to THE MOST HIGH! I knew that THE FATHER'S Throne I thought had the cherubims underneath HIM always, but now I realize HE has two Thrones. HE has a movable Throne that the cherubims carries HIM and HE has a Throne that is stationary in THE MOST HOLY PLACE, where Judgment is set now. I also learned that when the time of the Investigated Judgment, they all took their seats for Judgment in Dan 7:9

Now, you are incorrect they are made the same except the cherubims had four wings and the seraphims have six wings.

And the first living creatures was like a lion, and the second living creatures like a calf, and the third living creatures had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. Rev 4:7  HRB

In Revelation 4:6–8, four living beings (Greek: τέσσαρα ζῷα, tessera zōa) are seen in John's vision. These appear as a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle, much as in Ezekiel but in a different order. They have six wings, whereas Ezekiel's four living creatures are described as only having four. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your views is still prevalent in Catholic and Anglican churches; however modern Bible Scholars realizes that these are angels as the Bible says in Heb 1:7 You need to know that also faces does not mean they have four heads. You have a face they have four faces on one head. the front side of their face is an ox, the right side like a male, the left side like a lion and the back of his head is a face like an eagle. The seraphims order may be different then the cherubims faces or they maynot!

As, I stated before your views are not Biblical; they are interpreted and the Bible is of no private interpretation. Accept it as it is. It will tell you when it is literal, prophetic and symbolic you do not need to. We are not like THE MOST HIGH and HE does not need us to explain the Bible; it is the job of THE HOLY SPIRIT. Gabriel always came back and explain to all what they did not understand. What we all need to do is let the Bible speak for itself, and I know it does an excellent job!

I will close and say to you, I am glad that we had the discussion because it did aid me in learning, something I overlooked. THE HOLY SPIRIT showed me what I miss and I thank you for the discussion. That is why it is good to discuss ,you can always learn something new with the aid of others! Thanks

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

First let me apologize about the wings because everything is important. They, however are not symbolic.

Whether the wings are symbolic or literal the wings take a prominent place in the Isaiah 6 vision. The following states that the three pairs of wings were involved in a particular activity, two covered the face, two covered the feet and the other two were used for flight.

Isaiah 6:1–2 (KJV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

I have already hinted at how I understand this activity. It speaks of the ministry of Isaiah, and it is more applicable to the ministry of Jesus, especially as revealed in John 12.

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

As, I stated before your views are not Biblical; they are interpreted and the Bible is of no private interpretation. Accept it as it is. It will tell you when it is literal, prophetic and symbolic you do not need to.

As you claim Holy Spirit guidance, then I will wait for you to be moved to explain the activity of the wings and not impose my “private interpretation” (even though I object to your misuse of this term) on your thoughts.

1 hour ago, stinsonmarri said:

You need to know that also faces does not mean they have four heads.

Yes, you are right to say one head and four faces. The Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 had one head with four faces and each had four wings. The Living Creatures of Revelation have one head with one face and each had six wings.

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Whether the wings are symbolic or literal the wings take a prominent place in the Isaiah 6 vision. The following states that the three pairs of wings were involved in a particular activity, two covered the face, two covered the feet and the other two were used for flight.

Trevor: That's to let you know that THE CREATOR is YAHSHUA who created all things. HE created the sephriams different then the cherubims. Hebrew tell you HE made the worlds also and the suns, the moons ect. The sephriams had six wings two to cover their face, two cover their feet, and two they use to fly with. I do not get the particular activity, this how they are made and what their wings does. Like certain animal eyes pop out and can look around. We stand on two feet and can think animals cannot!

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I have already hinted at how I understand this activity. It speaks of the ministry of Isaiah, and it is more applicable to the ministry of Jesus, especially as revealed in John 12.

The angels were created by MICHAEL who is YAHSHUA who became flesh. HE is THE SON, THE ARCHANGEL, now again a SPIRITUAL BEING like HIS FATHER.

9 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Yes, you are right to say one head and four faces. The Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 had one head with four faces and each had four wings. The Living Creatures of Revelation have one head with one face and each had six wings.

When you translate from Greek to the English unless you understand grammar, syntax etc,; you will not understand that they had four faces. They did it is understood my major scholars today and I do agree with them. There are many things I do not agree with them.

Blessings!

[TrevorL]

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

That's to let you know that THE CREATOR is YAHSHUA who created all things. HE created the sephriams different then the cherubims. Hebrew tell you HE made the worlds also and the suns, the moons ect. The sephriams had six wings two to cover their face, two cover their feet, and two they use to fly with. I do not get the particular activity, this how they are made and what their wings does. Like certain animal eyes pop out and can look around. We stand on two feet and can think animals cannot!

In Isaiah 6 the wings of the Seraphim are depicted covering the face, feet and flying, but also one of them interacts with Isaiah, and there are a few features that are unusual:

Isaiah 6:5-8 (KJV): 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

The Seraphim takes a live coal from the altar in his hand which he had gathered with the tongs and uses it to touch Isaiah’s lips. Normally this would have burnt Isaiah’s lips if real, but it cleanses his lips and removes Isaiah’s iniquity and cleanses his sins. Here again is symbolic things mixed with literal events. Another thing to consider is the derivation of the word Seraphim. There seems to be some connection with the fiery serpents in the wilderness Numbers 21:4-9, and Jesus suggests that the brazen serpent prefigured his own crucifixion John 3:14-17, 12:32-33.

 

I must admit that Isaiah 6 is one of my favourite chapters. In my youth I attended a home Bible Class that considered one chapter of Isaiah each evening, and there was open discussion. My first ever comment was with chapter 6, near the end of the class when I drew attention to the quotation of Isaiah 6:9-10 in John 12:37-41 and the statement by John is that the vision speaks of Jesus. I have been very interested in Isaiah since then, and recently collected many resources on Isaiah, including MP3 recordings and commentaries. In all of these I have not encountered what I now consider the correct view of the activity of the wings, but I have found a few interesting suggestions. I have only asked three or four of my brethren, but none have given an answer. Only one asked my opinion, and did not accept or rather was a bit sceptical at my answer, so to be honest I would rather prefer to leave it as an open question for you to consider in the future. My understanding of it is that it relates to three phases of the ministry of Jesus and John 12 reveals the meaning.

 

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

The angels were created by MICHAEL who is YAHSHUA who became flesh. HE is THE SON, THE ARCHANGEL, now again a SPIRITUAL BEING like HIS FATHER.

I am surprised at your comment here. I thought most SDAs believed in the Trinity. Michael was an Archangel, similar to Gabriel. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father created all the Angels.

 

3 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

When you translate from Greek to the English unless you understand grammar, syntax etc,; you will not understand that they had four faces.

Without checking, I most probably said earlier four heads and not four faces, and if so you corrected my error. I still suggest that this feature almost proves that these are symbolic creatures, not real.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[stinsonmarri]

10 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings again stinsonmarri,

In Isaiah 6 the wings of the Seraphim are depicted covering the face, feet and flying, but also one of them interacts with Isaiah, and there are a few features that are unusual:

Isaiah 6:5-8 (KJV): 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

The Seraphim takes a live coal from the altar in his hand which he had gathered with the tongs and uses it to touch Isaiah’s lips. Normally this would have burnt Isaiah’s lips if real, but it cleanses his lips and removes Isaiah’s iniquity and cleanses his sins. Here again is symbolic things mixed with literal events. Another thing to consider is the derivation of the word Seraphim. There seems to be some connection with the fiery serpents in the wilderness Numbers 21:4-9, and Jesus suggests that the brazen serpent prefigured his own crucifixion John 3:14-17, 12:32-33.

 

I must admit that Isaiah 6 is one of my favourite chapters. In my youth I attended a home Bible Class that considered one chapter of Isaiah each evening, and there was open discussion. My first ever comment was with chapter 6, near the end of the class when I drew attention to the quotation of Isaiah 6:9-10 in John 12:37-41 and the statement by John is that the vision speaks of Jesus. I have been very interested in Isaiah since then, and recently collected many resources on Isaiah, including MP3 recordings and commentaries. In all of these I have not encountered what I now consider the correct view of the activity of the wings, but I have found a few interesting suggestions. I have only asked three or four of my brethren, but none have given an answer. Only one asked my opinion, and did not accept or rather was a bit sceptical at my answer, so to be honest I would rather prefer to leave it as an open question for you to consider in the future. My understanding of it is that it relates to three phases of the ministry of Jesus and John 12 reveals the meaning.

 

I am surprised at your comment here. I thought most SDAs believed in the Trinity. Michael was an Archangel, similar to Gabriel. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father created all the Angels.

 

Without checking, I most probably said earlier four heads and not four faces, and if so you corrected my error. I still suggest that this feature almost proves that these are symbolic creatures, not real.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

Trevor: I have been an SDA, since I was a little girl in the 50's. I always had a problem with the name god. I went to Israel to finish my degree but the Ulpan were close to financial problems in the 80's. I had to study Hebrew in their country before going to Hebrew University. However, YAHWEH did not send me there to go to college. I learn many truths while living there. I return and finish college here. I am a Biblical Historian. I do not believe in the trinity and there others who don't but I read in the Bible that there are THREE ALMIGHTY INDIVIDUAL BEING who are SPIRITUAL BEINGS that is how THEY are made. MICHAEL/YAHSHUA sit down on the Right SIDE of HIS FATHER on HIS Throne. THEY are not the word person, that word mean flesh beings. Trinity is not in the Bible, it actually comes from the Aryan people who migrated into Shem's land and into India. The Persians are Aryan and English it is called Iran! They then migrated into Europe that why it is called Indo-Europeans. 

MICHAEL/YAHSHUA does THE WILL of HIS FATHER always so I cannot understand a trinity which is not in the Bible.

This angel is working around the golden altar and he is given something like coal. This is not a symbol. You need to realize that you are real spiritual beings are real, what he place on Isaiah tongue was real. It is not earthly, it is Heavenly. There is a real living Tree of Life. There was a real Tree of knowledge of good and evil. This not all symbolic. YAHSHUA is coming again, there are Saints who are already in Heaven. They are not flesh anymore. Flesh and blood cannot enter into Heaven. What is in Heaven is not the same here on earth due to sin. Lucifer was kick out before this earth was made. All of Satan evil angels do not roam here, there allow here base on each individual person here on earth. When a person die that evil angels returns to prison. We have allow Satan to deceive us with myth a who lot of lies with a little truth to get you so confuse. If we would take the time and write down things you don't understand and look them up with KJV+ this is the Strong dictionary or go online to hub.com lexicon after you type in the text. You will be surprize.

Read Ex 24 you see that YAHSHUA came down and eat with the elders, Moses, Aaron his two sons and Joshua. YAHSHUA said in John 5:43 HE comes in HIS FATHER'S NAME. In the OT that was YAHSHUA that Abraham saw and all the rest, not THE FATHER. I cannot understand how people cannot see that. It is in the Bible plain and clear!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

19 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Michael was an Archangel, similar to Gabriel. 

Trevor: You will not find that Gabriel  was an Archangel. This is what the Bible says:

 Yet MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Jude 1:9

Here is the meaning of ARCHANGEL:

Archō (G757): A primary verb; to be first (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over.

Archaggelos (G743): chief angel Strong Greek Dictionary

YAHSHUA is THE CHIEF of the angels, HE created them!

 All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not anything made that was made. John 1:3

 And there was war in Heaven: MICHAEL and HIS angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:7

Notice it said MICHAEL and HIS angels because HE IS THE CREATOR of all things Trevor! That's what the Bible says and that is what I believe!

Blessings!