Daniel Revisited

[Gustave]

11 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Correctly understood in context He is "vindicated in our minds - not that He needs that but we do:

If scripture talks about we should too.

According to Ellen White every extra terrestrial on every alien planet needed it as well, along with every angel. 

"Satan has asserted that men could not keep the commandments of God. To prove that they could, Christ became a man, and lived a life of perfect obedience, an evidence to sinful human beings, to the worlds unfallen, and to the heavenly angels, that man could keep God's law..........." Ellen White Signs of the Times May 10, 1899.  

Impassability precludes any suggestion that God could be put in a pickle. I note that the SDA Theologians who claim the SDA Trinity Doctrine does away with Impassability would essentially be forced to discard Impassibility because of statements like these. 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

I knew Elder Cottrell the last few years of his life, out in Loma Linda. He was a frequent speaker and very faithful to the church. While he said that he liked to give the benefit of the doubt towards the Investigative Judgement, he was sympathetic towards Desmond Ford. While I was not too sympathetic towards Ford and had a stronger acceptance of the Investigative Judgement and he was more forensic than I am,  we were in agreement with concerns over  the growth of fundamentalism in the church, concerns about the Adventist Theological Society,  and of course I admire that he wrote that most important chapter in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy". (In our discussions on Ford I was able to turn to some of his writings against his support.)

I have spent some time last night reading that chapter re Israel, it is well done!

[BlessedMan]

50 minutes ago, Gustave said:

According to Ellen White every extra terrestrial on every alien planet needed it as well, along with every angel. 

"Satan has asserted that men could not keep the commandments of God. To prove that they could, Christ became a man, and lived a life of perfect obedience, an evidence to sinful human beings, to the worlds unfallen, and to the heavenly angels, that man could keep God's law..........." Ellen White Signs of the Times May 10, 1899.  

Impassability precludes any suggestion that God could be put in a pickle. I note that the SDA Theologians who claim the SDA Trinity Doctrine does away with Impassability would essentially be forced to discard Impassibility because of statements like these. 

well; I am not going to discuss EGW if we are talking about official Adventist beliefs. Not sure why you keep going there in many different topics. 

[JoeMo]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:14 PM, Kevin H said:

Thus if we draw an analogy based on 1150 days we have nothing happening or potentially happening and thus don't have information for a correct analogy. But if we draw it on 2300 evenings-mornings, we have the analogies we can do on the cycles and one of these would point to Yom Kippur 1844

I am of the opinion that the  2300 evenings/mornings equates to 1150 days. Why is that significant? One possible answer is that it it is a period that fits well within the 1260 day prophecy.  That's about all I can say about it. I can't figure out what the 1290 days or the 1335 days Daniel talks about either. I'm also a futurist; so I don't think any of the events associated with these time periods have yet occurred.

[TrevorL]

Greetings JoeMo,

15 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I am of the opinion that the  2300 evenings/mornings equates to 1150 days. Why is that significant? One possible answer is that it it is a period that fits well within the 1260 day prophecy.  That's about all I can say about it.

As stated earlier I believe that the 2300 evening / mornings represent BC 334-333 the overthrow of the Persians by the Greeks and the down-treading of the people of Israel and Jerusalem for 2300 years to AD 1967 when Jerusalem was liberated by the Jews, refer also Luke 21:24. SDAs do not see any significance in the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, but I look for the times of refreshing and restoration at the return of Jesus, not the burning of the earth Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14. The 1260 days may have a number of fulfilments, and Daniel 7:25 equates to 1260 days. The little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy, and the legislation of Justinian AD 529-533 to the French Revolution AD 1789-83, and the Decree of Phocas AD 608-10 to the loss of temporal power of the Papacy AD 1968-70 are two fulfilments of the 1260 days.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

TrevorL,

Interesting.  Not saying your wrong, but I mostly disagree with the stuff about the papacy:

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy

I could be wrong; but I believe the identity of the Beast and the Antichrist is yet to be revealed.  Antichrist or no I do believe the papacy will have a significant role in the coming apostasy.

[BlessedMan]

38 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

TrevorL,

Interesting.  Not saying your wrong, but I mostly disagree with the stuff about the papacy:

I could be wrong; but I believe the identity of the Beast and the Antichrist is yet to be revealed.  Antichrist or no I do believe the papacy will have a significant role in the coming apostasy.

How would this statement reconcile with scripture that says:

Quote

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many anti-christs have come, by which we know that it is the last hour." (1 John 2:18)

I think that at the very least, we should think of "anti-christ" as does scripture, in the plural sense. Which begs the question: "How do we decide NOW what to call "anti-christ" being as "many anti-christs HAVE come?"  According to this, there must be some here, now?  Would this mean, for example, that "The Vatican" is "an" anti-Christ, as opposed to "THE" anti-christ? Presuming that one believes said Vatican is involved.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo,

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I could be wrong; but I believe the identity of the Beast and the Antichrist is yet to be revealed.

The futurist view must be very boring and Bible study very drab if all the detail is consigned to a future date, and for a very short period in the future. My understanding of prophecy makes many of the current events relevant to the gradual development of the Divine purpose leading up to the return of Christ. 

I also consider the SDA position in rejecting the significance of God’s purpose with natural Israel also ignores much of the interesting detail. The result of the events of 1967 have become one basis of why the nations will intervene in the Middle East, seeking to solve the problem of Jerusalem and the status of Israel and Palestine. I also consider Ezekiel 38 predicts Russia as the King of the North and Daniel 11:40-45 is parallel with this. Eventually to fulfill this Russia will invade Turkey and the present tension between Russia and Turkey may precipitate this soon or on some future occasion.

Kind regards Trevor

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The futurist view must be very boring and Bible study very drab if all the detail is consigned to a future date, and for a very short period in the future.

This I would agree with, most definitely. From what I can see, all of the Bible is for all of the people all of the times.

2 hours ago, TrevorL said:

the SDA position in rejecting the significance of God’s purpose with natural Israel also ignores much of the interesting detail.

I would question this statement. Can you explain briefly what makes you think this about the Adventist position/s on Israel? I think it was in 1947 when the UN voted to form a Jewish State, and even by 1967 Israel was still very divided, one example being that "the Western wall" was closed off to Jews.

The Bible does say:

"it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel," (Rom 9:6)

I likely don't understand what you are getting at yet re "1967?"

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings BlessedMan,

12 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

This I would agree with, most definitely. From what I can see, all of the Bible is for all of the people all of the times.

Yes I agree with you here. I accept that Daniel 2 gives the framework of the continuous historical view, each of the four nations succeeding each other and the fourth continuing in some form until the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth. I consider that the seals, trumpets and vials are sequential, in total covering from say AD96 to the return of Jesus and that each seal, trumpet or vial had a relevance to the contemporary generation, and rested in God’s revelation and guidance for them. I believe that we are now in the period of the sixth vial, waiting for the final drying up of the Euphratean power of Turkey and the establishment of Russia in Constantinople to become the voice behind the seat of the dragon, preparing for Armageddon. Sometime in the midst of this Jesus returns to the faithful Revelation 16:12-16. So the present Russian-Turkish tensions may precipitate the anticipated Russian takeover, also mentioned in Daniel 11:40.

12 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I would question this statement. Can you explain briefly what makes you think this about the Adventist position/s on Israel? I think it was in 1947 when the UN voted to form a Jewish State, and even by 1967 Israel was still very divided, one example being that "the Western wall" was closed off to Jews.

The Bible does say: "it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel," (Rom 9:6)

You mention 1947 and 1967 but to a SDA is the establishment of the State of Israel and the recapture of Jerusalem of any real significance? Are they really an indication of end times events and the near return of Jesus to establish his kingdom?

Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.  

This speaks of the two events, in 1947 and 1967, the establishment of the state of Israel and the recapture of Jerusalem. Verse 2 speaks of an invasion of the Land after these events, and more details are mentioned in verses 9-17 and the outcome of the establishment of the Kingdom. But if the SDA view of the burning of the earth then these details are irrelevant.

 

Ezekiel 38:11-12 (KJV): 11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, 12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Ezekiel 38 has been used to indicate that the northern invasion will occur after the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, in unbelief of Jesus as Messiah, their establishment there as agriculturalists and traders, and their conversion as a result of these judgements, and then the building of the Temple of the Age to come. So the subject here is not spiritual Israel, but natural Israel before their conversion when Jesus returns.

 

12 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

I likely don't understand what you are getting at yet re "1967?"

The recapture of Jerusalem and the occupation of the West Bank as a result of the events of 1967 appear to be a major catalyst of the present tension between Israel and the Palestinians and this is one reason for the nations to invade, and the capture of Jerusalem and the removal of the Jews from the Eastern half of city is relevant Zechariah 14:1-2. I have not met a SDA who believes that Zechariah 14 will be fulfilled, but in my youth a senior SDA said to me that he could not understand why Zechariah 14 has been given.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[BlessedMan]

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

You mention 1947 and 1967 but to a SDA is the establishment of the State of Israel and the recapture of Jerusalem of any real significance? Are they really an indication of end times events and the near return of Jesus to establish his kingdom?

thanks for the reply, above. But IMO you really just presented one huge riddle. I dont see any substantial answers here to my questions about the specific Adventist beliefs that would indicate what you are saying here.

19 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I also consider the SDA position in rejecting the significance of God’s purpose with natural Israel also ignores much of the interesting detail.

Adventists teach the same as Jesus, about His second coming. There are many things our Lord has mentioned as "signs" that His coming is near. Its not an Adventist idea  that scripture doesn't make much mention of "literal" Israel in the context of the second coming; except in the context of Romans 9:6.

Adventists tend to teach a unity of thoughts on the second coming rather than conscripted, segmented thoughts about the second coming. IDT its accurate to circumscribe the doctrine of the second coming with isolated ideology about "literal" Israel, which I have noticed never means the same thing to most people discussing it.

Adventist official teachings on the second coming includes also the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, as it IS HIS-Story, NOT history that counts in Bible prophecy. Christians are imploding themselves with predictions, that are not in fact centered on Christ; and Him crucified. THAT is the context and the rule-book for the second coming, and our involvement in it; either as individuals, or as the corporate body of the church:

9-The Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ

In Christ’s life of perfect obedience to God’s will, His suffering, death, and resurrection, God provided the only means of atonement for human sin, so that those who by faith accept this atonement may have eternal life, and the whole creation may better understand the infinite and holy love of the Creator. This perfect atonement vindicates the righteousness of God’s law and the graciousness of His character; for it both condemns our sin and provides for our forgiveness. The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming. The bodily resurrection of Christ proclaims God’s triumph over the forces of evil, and for those who accept the atonement assures their final victory over sin and death. It declares the Lordship of Jesus Christ, before whom every knee in heaven and on earth will bow. (Gen_3:15; Psa_22:1; Isa_53:1-12; Joh_3:16; Joh_14:30; Rom_1:4; Rom_3:25; Rom_4:25; Rom_8:3-4; 1Co_15:3-4; 1Co_15:20-22; 2Co_5:14-15; 2Co_5:19-21; Php_2:6-11; Col_2:15; 1Pe_2:21-22; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_4:10.)

25-The Second Coming of Christ
 The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour’s coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ’s coming is near. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Mat_24:1-51; Mar_13:1-37; Luk_21:1-38; Joh_14:1-3; Act_1:9-11; 1Co_15:51-54; 1Th_4:13-18; 1Th_5:1-6; 2Th_1:7-10; 2Th_2:8; 2Ti_3:1-5; Tit_2:13; Heb_9:28; Rev_1:7; Rev_14:14-20; Rev_19:11-21.)

[from 28 Fundamental beliefs]

The above two fundamental beliefs are what true "prophecy" from scripture IS all about.

 

[JoeMo]

21 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The futurist view must be very boring and Bible study very drab if all the detail is consigned to a future date

The futurist view does not say ALL details are consigned to a future date.  Some futurist view prophecies have been and are being fulfilled:

1917 - the Balfour Declaration; Jews begin moving back to Israel

1947 - Israel becomes a nation; Jews move back to Israel en masse

1967 - Israel wins the 6-day war - recovers part of Jerusalem and much of the land promised th Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

2017 - The United States recognizes Jerusalem an the capital of Israel

Notice the 50 year span between events of 1917 and 1967; and again between 1967 and 2017.  Just a conjecture (also put forth by some Messianic jewish rabbis), but could 1917,1967, and 2017 been Jubilee years? Just a question.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again BlessedMan,

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

But IMO you really just presented one huge riddle. I dont see any substantial answers here to my questions about the specific Adventist beliefs that would indicate what you are saying here.

Perhaps one way to explain this is to refer to the SDA book “SDAs answer questions on doctrine” pages 478-479 where three categories of Millerites are mentioned. It speaks of “literalists”, and some of these “taught the restoration of the Jews”. In contrast the view adopted by Miller and others was that only the faithful would survive the return of Jesus. From my own experience, when I was 23 I discussed a few aspects of the Bible with a workmate, whose mother was a SDA. She arranged for a SDA Pastor and his assistant to visit my home and I asked about some of the detail of the OT prophecies. Their answer was that these details will not be fulfilled, and that they were conditional on Israel repenting at the time. My understanding of many of these prophecies is that Israel’s failure to respond is prophesied, but nevertheless despite their scattering there would be a partial restoration before the return as a basis for the events surrounding the return of Jesus and the conversion of a remnant and the subjection of the nations Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8.

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

The death of Christ is substitutionary and expiatory, reconciling and transforming.

I agree with most of this except that I believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus is as a representative, not substitution.

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven

I disagree with this aspect.

Kind regards Trevor

[Kevin H]

The Jubilee years start the Yom Kippur of a year that ends in our number 4 and where in January we start a year ending in 5. Yom Kippur 1844 happened to be the end of a cycle of sabbatical years and the start of a Jubilee according to the high date. 1455 BC or number 00 or number 50 years according to the low date, 1250 BC. 

As to the final fulfillment of the prophecies, God will let us know when it is time. In the mean time there will be things that can apply over history. As we learn more about the exegesis, and more about applications (at least the good ones) the foundation will be built for what we need to know including if we live in the last time the principle cycles around. 

There is a big problem with our application of the 1260 days because we make it a day year, yet the textual context is that they are literal days in the 70 weeks that we have already used the year day principle, so we have to be very careful of applications that use other principles outside of the literal days.

We look at the application of the Papacy as the little horn in Daniel, and I believe correctly, but there was another application that we can also look at to learn both what we need to learn about the exegesis (sometimes they were not literally fulfilled but could have been in or soon after the generation that gets the message) but the Flavian Emperors also fit. There were 10 Roman Emperors, and 3 plucked up with Vespasian becoming emperor, his son Titus destroying the temple and other son Domitian being the emperor of Revelation reviving the persecution of Nero, 666 (or 616 depending on how much of his name you use). Every time we again have the persecution that originated with Nero we can re-apply 666. Domitian may have prided himself on being the great little horn of Daniel, but John pointed out that whether the world ends under his persecution is not based on him but on the spreading of the gospel, and that the church had lost it's first love and the theme of Revelation is "Preach again!" God is not waiting for the exile, the fall of Jerusalem, Domitian, Sunday Laws etc. but when the gospel has been spread into all the world, then shall the end come. 

The application of Revelation 13 is any organization that replaces Christ in our life. Had Hezekiah shared the gospel with the Babylonians his reformation could have spread to the whole world and not too long before the Messiah was king. Instead he showed them his stuff and they brought to Babylon the memory of his stuff and they came back and took it and instead of the Messiah, the son of David ruling over God's people, it entered a period  or others instead of Christ or in Greek "Antichrist" and seven periods to cover from the Son of David until we are again ruled by the Son of David. These are: Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome, The Holy Roman Empire, the deadly wound (the crowns are on the horns not the head. thus the beast is and is not and is yet to come). The deadly wound is a period of independent nations, some based on the American Revolution offering freedom, others based on the French Revolution (with a different understanding of freedom where they came to feel that the elite could be free and needed more control over the common people). as well as some trying to maintain catholic Europe where the place you were born decided if you were Roman Catholic, Reformed Roman Catholic (with a reformation based on the Bible, i.e. Protestantism), Eastern Orthodox, or Islam, which was apparently an early reformation, but did not know how much of the church's corruption crept into the Bible.  (Sadly, in current politics too many Republicans want to bring us back to catholic Europe, and too many Democrats want to bring us to post French Revolution Europe, and too many have forgotten a little thing called the American Revolution. )

Then there is the 7th head, which is different from the others since the others use politics and warfare to conquer, the 7th head is the world volunteering union under economic cooperation where the merchants of the earth (or corporations) instead of politicians are leading out. 

 

[BlessedMan]

2 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

There is a big problem with our application of the 1260 days because we make it a day year, yet the textual context is that they are literal days in the 70 weeks that we have already used the year day principle, so we have to be very careful of applications that use other principles outside of the literal days.

We look at the application of the Papacy as the little horn in Daniel, and I believe correctly, but there was another application that we can also look at to learn both what we need to learn about the exegesis (sometimes they were not literally fulfilled but could have been in or soon after the generation that gets the message)

Great post, I mostly agree, when I have time will come back with a question or two.

And of course MHO.

4 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

As to the final fulfillment of the prophecies, God will let us know when it is time. In the mean time there will be things that can apply over history.

I may not be reading your context or intention quite correctly here; but this is a good point. God tends to (although not always) let us know on an as needed basis. For eg; He doesn't dole out "grace," in advance, before whatever we need it for has happened. "As your days, so shall your strength be." Many applications similarly, in NT.

I can summarize really briefly how I currently view it. As some might have figured by now, I am very interested in any views that have "Christ and Him crucified" at the Center and helm of a given "prophecy."  (Gal 6:14).  is a major reason, but there are many others. I really have been having marvellous studies on prophecy lately that lead one along such lines. I have also said elsewhere, we could likely use less emphasis & energy spent on "predictions," and more on Jesus; His life, His death, his resurrection, and His second coming. IMO these ARE the four Pillars of all Bible prophecy. All other prophecy is corresponded with power and influence; according to their relation to this theme.

On a similar note, OT prophecy does play several important roles in the more modern NT Bible prophecy; such as "the repeating of history" and building the theme of Christ and Him crucified as the central pillar, rather than a side issue of our prophetic dogmas. I can give one quick example here then have to run - I am looking after a very sick loved one these days, so "time is short."

A lot of people, I have noticed that get into "Israel" and "Israel In Bible Prophecy," choose to delve into Ezekiel; and getting  too caught up in predictions and dates. Im not saying its wrong to delve into - just not very central to "christ and Him crucified." Let me explain really fast with a passage from Ezekiel:

The Lord God Will Seek Them Out
Eze 34:11  'For thus says the Lord GOD: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.
Eze 34:12  As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13  And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Isnt this very similar to an occassion where Jesus said: ""What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?" (Mat 18:2)

So this shows that history can repeat itself, Jesus often uses said history to tell people how to have a relationship with Jesus. THAT is what prophecy is about

"Great Controversy, pg 622: "We should acquaint ourselves with God NOW by proving His promises."

Quote

by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.(2 Pet 1:4)

(compare Ezekiel 34:15)

till next time. Ill get to your post asap Trevor

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 2/28/2020 at 11:13 PM, JoeMo said:

I am of the opinion that the  2300 evenings/mornings equates to 1150 days. Why is that significant? 

I believe that while the book of Daniel did not specifically spell it out, the prophet Daniel knew exactly what 2300 days meant. And he knew that it was to begin sometime in the future. Part of the reason he became so disturbed is the realization that the kingdom of God to come was still thousands of years in the future. So, I will stick the the 2300 years that have come and gone. No "time" prophecies remain to be fulfilled in the Bible.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is a challenge to the proposal in the opening post of this thread:

https://atoday.org/response-to-cyrus-or-artaxerxes-decree-issues-in-dating-the-70-week-prophecy/

[JoeMo]

On 3/2/2020 at 10:18 AM, B/W Photodude said:

the prophet Daniel knew exactly what 2300 days meant.

The Hebrew (or Aramaic) words translated as "days" in the KJV actually mean "Evenings and mornings"; ( "ereb boker") and is translated as such in many other versions of the Bible. This probably refers to the daily evening and morning sacrifices.  2300 evening-morning sacrifices equals 1150 days.

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The following is a challenge to the proposal in the opening post of this thread:

https://atoday.org/response-to-cyrus-or-artaxerxes-decree-issues-in-dating-the-70-week-prophecy/

The author does not explain the 70th week (which by my interpretation) seems to be cut off from the previous 69 weeks.  Could the last 7-year period be referring to the 7 year tribulation which we must still face in the future?

[stinsonmarri]

On 2/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, TrevorL said:

Greetings JoeMo,

As stated earlier I believe that the 2300 evening / mornings represent BC 334-333 the overthrow of the Persians by the Greeks and the down-treading of the people of Israel and Jerusalem for 2300 years to AD 1967 when Jerusalem was liberated by the Jews, refer also Luke 21:24. SDAs do not see any significance in the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, but I look for the times of refreshing and restoration at the return of Jesus, not the burning of the earth Acts 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14. The 1260 days may have a number of fulfilments, and Daniel 7:25 equates to 1260 days. The little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy, and the legislation of Justinian AD 529-533 to the French Revolution AD 1789-83, and the Decree of Phocas AD 608-10 to the loss of temporal power of the Papacy AD 1968-70 are two fulfilments of the 1260 days.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

As I read many of the comments, I find that is really why I know that we are in the shaken time. Some have the right idea but collectively we need to let go of SDA mistakes and correct them. First, we must recognize that certain words and sentence structure has been changed in the Bible. The word Jew is not Biblical at all! The Ashkenazi who comes from Gomer converted into a false religion after the death of all of the disciples, apostles and prophets of YAHSHUA. IsraEL was the name of the people, the nation and the true form of worship. The people came from Abraham who was a Chaldean and all the children of Eber were named after him were call Hebrews.

*And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. Gen 10:3  (* All my Scriptures are from WOY unless indicated)

As to what is objected that Eber and Abraham Chaldeans and spoke the Chaldees language this has been replied to already and whereas it is observed that from the time of Eber to Abraham no one ever called an Hebrew from him it is not to be wondered at since Eber to the time of Abraham and even to the time of Jacob according to both Jewish and Scripture chronology. John Gill

Yehûdâh was the name of Judah which is Biblical. The kingdom of Yehûdâh was recognized but after Hezekiah many of the other 12 tribes return to Judah including the priest and Levities for the kingdom of Israel before it was destroyed by the Assyrians.

And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to The House of YAHWEH at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto YAHWEH ELOHIYM of IsraEL. 2Ch 30:1

And when Hezekiah and the princes came and saw the heaps, they blessed YAHWEH, and HIS people IsraEL. 2Ch 31:8  

Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew." 1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3

This false idea that there were lost tribes of IsraeEL is not Biblical at all. In the time of Ezra, the Bible made it clear that IsraEL was still the name of the people and not the nation!

Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of IsraeEL: Ezra 2:2

 And when the seventh month was come, and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem. Ezra 3:1

And offered at the dedication of this house of ELAH an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs: and for a sin offering for all IsraEL, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of IsraEL. Ezra 6:17  

During the time of YAHSHUA to the stoning of Stephen, the people were call IsraEL. Disciples and the Apostles had formed a sect called THE WAY. However, the still consider themselves IsraEL.

HE saved others HIMSELF HE cannot save. If HE be THE KING of IsraEL, let HIM now come down from the cross, and we will believe HIM. Mat 27:42  

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to IsraEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:25

And he found a certain Yehuḏi ((Yehûdâh meaning a person actually came from the tribe of Judah) named Aqulas, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla – because Claudius had commanded all the Yehuḏim (Yehuda is all the 12 tribes that all became a part of the country call Judah after the Babylonian exile), to leave Rome – and he came to them. This man was instructed in THE WAY of THE SOVEREIGN; and being fervent in THE SPIRIT, he spoke and taught diligently the things of YAHSHUA, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him THE WAY of ELOHIYM more perfectly. Act 18:2, 25, 26  
But when some were hardened and did not believe, speaking evil of THE WAY before the crowd, he withdrew from them and separated the taught ones, reasoning daily in the school of Turannos. And about that time there came to be a great commotion about THE WAY. Act 19:9, 23  TS2009

“I am indeed a Yehuḏi (Yehûdâh and Paul came from the tribe of Judah ), having been born in Tarsos of Kilikia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamli’ěl, having been instructed according to the exactness of the Torah of our fathers, being ardent for ELOHIYM, as you all are today, who persecuted THE WAY to the death, binding and delivering up into prisons both men and women, Act 22:3, 4  TS2009

But this I confess unto thee, that after THE WAY which they call heresy, so worship I the ELOHIYM of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And having heard this, having known more exactly about THE Way, Felix put them off, saying, “When Lysias the commander comes down, I shall decide your case.” Act 24:14, 22  TS 2009

Linguists say the name "Christian" [Christiani] is originally Latin and meant something like partisans of Christus, soldiers of Christus, the household of Christus. (The Greek word is Christos, the anointed one.) The name was given to the believers by outsiders and likely had a mocking tone: "Christ-ites" or "Messiah groupies."

In addition, Paul and the other followers of Yeshua chose other descriptive titles for themselves. Some of them are: Followers of "the Way" [Grk, he hodos; Heb, ha-derekh] http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/ntstudies/custom.html

After the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the people of Judean who were still Israel were spread from Afrika to Europe. The Rabbinic Judaism actually formed in Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity. They called themselves Pharisees who were the scribes of the Temple. This group grew during the Maccabean period and became a mighty force during the time of YAHSHUA! Paul was one of them but converted, but the movement never died even after the destruction of the temple.

The priesthood, known as the Sadducees, did. Rabbi Johanan Ben Zakkai‘s who left Jerusalem before the destruction of the temple. It was after it destruction that he negotiate with the Roman general, it said by humbling to allow a group to live peacefully in the city of Yavneh; which is not far from Tel Aviv. There a school of oral thought was formed. 

It must be understood that those who were called the followers of “THE WAY,” also left Jerusalem remembering the prediction of YAHSHUA! They fled and the original writings in Hebrew of the New Testament was destroyed by the Rabbinic Judaism:

After the destruction of the second temple in 70 C.E. the rabbis gathered in Yavneh and launched the process which yielded the Mishnah approximately one hundred years later. Most modern scholars see these rabbis as Pharisees triumphant who define “orthodoxy,” expel Christians and other heretics, and purge the canon of “dangerous” books. The evidence for this reconstruction is inadequate. In all likelihood most of the rabbis were Pharisees, but there is no indication that the rabbis of the Yavnean period were motivated by a Pharisaic self-consciousness (contrast the Babylonian Talmud and the medieval polemics against the Karaites) or were dominated by an exclusivist ethic. The Significance of Yavneh: Pharisees, Rabbis, and the End of Jewish Sectarianism, Shaye J.D. Cohen, Hebrew Union College Annual 55.

The writer above was prejudice and call them Christians this was not true as I stated. The disciples nor Paul who were Hebrews used the word Christ. This is not true at all, so the historical explanation why Antioch begin to use the word Christian is easy. They were given the truth but continue to followed their pagan beliefs as the Canaanites did to IsraEL with Baal. Bible Scholars can try to cover up the truth, but archaeological digs will reveal the truth! Antioch was located in Turkey and the finds shows it very clear the true:

These links are demonstrated convincingly in her exhibit, illuminating that period of history when Paul's message triumphed: when Greco-Roman paganism was superseded by Christianity. The emperor Constantine converted in 312, and by the time of his death in 337, Christianity had become the official religion of the Roman empire. In Antioch, the pagan temples were closed by the year 400. All the same, the myths and motifs of paganism retained their hold for centuries on both Christians and Jews, in their worship and in their homes.
Many false pagan beliefs were formed that Constantine felt that this was a part of his pagan religion. Paul stated iniquity had already started in his day and it begin at Antioch.

Antichristos From G473 and G5547; an opponent of the MESSIAH: - (change to) antichrist.
 

Erythraean Sybil. [IESOUS CHREISTOS THEOU HUIOS SOTER STAUROS]. Antioch Revealed
The prophecy relates to the coming down upon the Earth of the Spirit of Truth (Christos), after which advent will begin the Golden Age; the verse refers to the necessity before reaching that blessed condition of inner (or subjective) theophany and theopneusty, to pass through the crucifixion of flesh or matter. (NB: This IMO refers to ASCETICISM) The words meaning literally "Iesus, Christos, God, Son, Savior, Cross," are most excellent handles to hang a Christian prophecy on, but they are pagan, not Christian.

The terms Christ and Christians, spelt originally Chrest and Chrestians, were borrowed from the Temple vocabulary of the Pagans.

Chrestos meant in that vocabulary  a disciple on probation, a candidate for hierophantship. 
When he had attained to this through initiation, long trials, and suffering, and had been anointed"
 

For instance, Krishno-vatarati, Krishna incarnates, Krishna comes down, crosses down. Avatara, in other words, is the incarnation or passing into human flesh, of a divine being. There are other meanings applied to this, but they are subtle, and they are beyond our present purpose. So, for the present we can remember that avatara is practically the same as incarnation; incarnation you will remember meaning in-fleshing. The incarnation, according to the Christian theory, was thus an avatara or the second person of the Trinity; a very, very old conception indeed in its elements. Greek mythological story is full of the incarnations of gods and goddesses, and so are the religions of Hindustan. http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/chj-chz.htm
 

The word MESSIAH meaning more than just anointing. It meant the anointing of PROPHET, HIGH PRIEST and KING! You will not find this meaning in the word Christ or Chresto!

Well these are the Biblical and historical facts that I have research and presented. You can present the truth and facts, but it is between each individual and THE HOLY SPIRIT to choose. I will soon address the beast and the opponent against THE MESSIAH who is falsely called antichrist! I agree with Joe, but I will give more details base on the Bible itself!

Blessings to all!
 

[Kevin H]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

The Hebrew (or Aramaic) words translated as "days" in the KJV actually mean "Evenings and mornings"; ( "ereb boker") and is translated as such in many other versions of the Bible. This probably refers to the daily evening and morning sacrifices.  2300 evening-morning sacrifices equals 1150 days.

Actually the phrase is not "Evenings and mornings" but "Evenings-mornings".  The term for the daily sacrifice is "morning and evening".  I've read in more than one commentary that the author of Daniel suffered from dyslexia and meant to write "Morning and evening" but that by mistake switched them around and forgot to include the word "and" in between them. That is what is necessary for us to correct what he actually wrote so that it can be not what he wrote but what he meant to write for it to apply to the morning and evening sacrifice. 

The term "Evenings-mornings" is similar to the evening and morning of the creation week, indicating a connection to the daily cycle, but also in a focus on the cycles. The ancient near east had many cycles. A day in Egypt was either the 24 hour cycle of the sun or the annual flooding of the Nile (Yes, one of those day-year situations that Desmond Ford said does not exist.) Two fantastic books to study the cycles are "Before Philosophy" 1946 University of Chicago Press by Henri Frankfort and others. (Why our church does not reprint this book amazes me. So many of our arguments would end if our people would read this book.) Another is "The Myth of the Eternal Return" by Mircea Eliade.

We find the Hebrew cycles in Leviticus 23 and here and there in Deuteronomy.  Leviticus 23 tells us what a Hebrew week is: It is 6 days and the Sabbath, Six months and either the Day of Atonement or Passover, Six years and the Sabbatical year, and six Sabbatical years and the Jubilee.  From this we see that the daily cycles are literal days, literal months, literal years, or literal Sabbatical years. Since Deuteronomy downplays the Jubilee and Daniel was a Deuteronomist we can not focus on the Sabbatical years. Thus to Daniel 2300 evenings-mornings can mean 2300 days, 2300 months or 2300 years.

Daniel knew that which one it would be was based on the spreading of the gospel to fit the condition. If the Hebrews could be faithful over the next few years, the prophecy of Deuteronomy 4 would have been fulfilled and the exile end with a second great exodus lead by the Messiah.  When this did not happen Daniel 9 connects it to the 70 weeks of years. Ezekiel applies it to the last 2300 days of the 70 weeks of years and tells what could have happened had Jesus been accepted. With his rejection we move on to the possibility of 2300 months or 2300 years. The 2300 year application brings us to 1844, which was the end of a Sabbatical year and the start of a Jubilee, and the first Sabbatical year and Jubilee since Edward Robinson did the first serious study of the Holy Land that brought us to the dawning of the age of exegesis, the rediscovery of the ancient world, an age where we could start to investigate the pages of scripture like never before. If we were to do the math we can probably find a time when something could have happened at the 2300 month mark, but it was the 2300 year application that was the last time this prophecy could cycle around and where things did happen. 

In Ezekiel (who was a priest and would take the Sabbatical years as an option) we find a prophecy for 2310 days, and they are the last 2310 days of the end of the great controversy for the burring the wicked after they are destroyed.  If we remove the 10 days between the New Year and Day of Atonement, we have another 2300 day prophecy. Ezekiel places it in what would have happened had Jesus been accepted and they would have been the last 2300 days of the 70 week prophecy. Ezekiel's prophecy is a sister prophecy and fits with 2300 days, not 2300 morning and evening sacrifices. 

There is nothing to support the 1150 days or 2300 morning and evening sacrifices. Those who want to apply the book of Daniel to Antiochus still does not have the prophecy fit but it is closer to 1150 days than 2300 days. But they need a dyslexic Daniel who meant to write "morning and evening" but by mistake wrote "evenings - mornings" But "evenings-mornings fits the emphases  that Daniel is thinking about the cycles, it fits with in the exegetical context of Deuteronomy 4 where the world could have ended with the exile, and the third year of Belshazzar covered the year that was exactly 1150 days from business as usual and exactly 2300 days from the year that has Medio-Persia laying seize to Babylon, Belshazzar's feast and the early days of the Medio-Persia rule, and it fits with the 2310 day sister prophecy in Ezekiel. 

[BlessedMan]

5 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Actually the phrase is not "Evenings and mornings" but "Evenings-mornings".  The term for the daily sacrifice is "morning and evening".  I've read in more than one commentary that the author of Daniel suffered from dyslexia and meant to write "Morning and evening" but that by mistake switched them around and forgot to include the word "and" in between them. That is what is necessary for us to correct what he actually wrote so that it can be not what he wrote but what he meant to write for it to apply to the morning and evening sacrifice. 

The term "Evenings-mornings" is similar to the evening and morning of the creation week, indicating a connection to the daily cycle, but also in a focus on the cycles. The ancient near east had many cycles. A day in Egypt was either the 24 hour cycle of the sun or the annual flooding of the Nile (Yes, one of those day-year situations that Desmond Ford said does not exist.) Two fantastic books to study the cycles are "Before Philosophy" 1946 University of Chicago Press by Henri Frankfort and others. (Why our church does not reprint this book amazes me. So many of our arguments would end if our people would read this book.) Another is "The Myth of the Eternal Return" by Mircea Eliade.

We find the Hebrew cycles in Leviticus 23 and here and there in Deuteronomy.  Leviticus 23 tells us what a Hebrew week is: It is 6 days and the Sabbath, Six months and either the Day of Atonement or Passover, Six years and the Sabbatical year, and six Sabbatical years and the Jubilee.  From this we see that the daily cycles are literal days, literal months, literal years, or literal Sabbatical years. Since Deuteronomy downplays the Jubilee and Daniel was a Deuteronomist we can not focus on the Sabbatical years. Thus to Daniel 2300 evenings-mornings can mean 2300 days, 2300 months or 2300 years.

Daniel knew that which one it would be was based on the spreading of the gospel to fit the condition. If the Hebrews could be faithful over the next few years, the prophecy of Deuteronomy 4 would have been fulfilled and the exile end with a second great exodus lead by the Messiah.  When this did not happen Daniel 9 connects it to the 70 weeks of years. Ezekiel applies it to the last 2300 days of the 70 weeks of years and tells what could have happened had Jesus been accepted. With his rejection we move on to the possibility of 2300 months or 2300 years. The 2300 year application brings us to 1844, which was the end of a Sabbatical year and the start of a Jubilee, and the first Sabbatical year and Jubilee since Edward Robinson did the first serious study of the Holy Land that brought us to the dawning of the age of exegesis, the rediscovery of the ancient world, an age where we could start to investigate the pages of scripture like never before. If we were to do the math we can probably find a time when something could have happened at the 2300 month mark, but it was the 2300 year application that was the last time this prophecy could cycle around and where things did happen. 

In Ezekiel (who was a priest and would take the Sabbatical years as an option) we find a prophecy for 2310 days, and they are the last 2310 days of the end of the great controversy for the burring the wicked after they are destroyed.  If we remove the 10 days between the New Year and Day of Atonement, we have another 2300 day prophecy. Ezekiel places it in what would have happened had Jesus been accepted and they would have been the last 2300 days of the 70 week prophecy. Ezekiel's prophecy is a sister prophecy and fits with 2300 days, not 2300 morning and evening sacrifices. 

There is nothing to support the 1150 days or 2300 morning and evening sacrifices. Those who want to apply the book of Daniel to Antiochus still does not have the prophecy fit but it is closer to 1150 days than 2300 days. But they need a dyslexic Daniel who meant to write "morning and evening" but by mistake wrote "evenings - mornings" But "evenings-mornings fits the emphases  that Daniel is thinking about the cycles, it fits with in the exegetical context of Deuteronomy 4 where the world could have ended with the exile, and the third year of Belshazzar covered the year that was exactly 1150 days from business as usual and exactly 2300 days from the year that has Medio-Persia laying seize to Babylon, Belshazzar's feast and the early days of the Medio-Persia rule, and it fits with the 2310 day sister prophecy in Ezekiel. 

which verse in Ezekiel are you referring to Kevin? (re 2300) Good post.

[Kevin H]

16 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

which verse in Ezekiel are you referring to Kevin? (re 2300) Good post.

It is somewhat pieced together in the times given in Ezekiel 38-39 which describes how the world would have ended had Jesus been accepted, and corresponds to what could have happened with the 70 weeks. We studied it years ago in college, not sure if I can find the notes or not to get more specific. Since the dispensations have kidnapped these chapters, and since we can't find clear applications as we do in Daniel and Revelation we tend to avoid those chapters. We need to read them in light of "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy" and see these as what could have happened. By analogy they will cycle around to events at the end of the thousand years.  

[BlessedMan]

32 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

It is somewhat pieced together in the times given in Ezekiel 38-39 which describes how the world would have ended had Jesus been accepted, and corresponds to what could have happened with the 70 weeks.

thank you! This answers my question very well and I am sure I can work with this. IDK if its coincidence or not but I have been reading Ezekiel this week.

[Kevin H]

May I recommend reading Ezekiel in light of the chapter "The Role of Israel in Old Testament prophecy" and Deuteronomy 4 which says that the exile could have been the last days, and that Ezekiel did not see a second coming, but the messiah setting up the kingdom after his resurrection.