The rich young ruler

June 16, 2006

I'll start by quoting the following:

As the young man [see Matt chapter 19] turned away, Jesus said to His disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God." These words astonished the disciples. [:"red"]They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven[/]; worldly power and riches they themselves hoped to receive in the Messiah's kingdom; if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men? [COL 393]

June 16, 2006

“They had been taught to look upon the rich as the favorites of heaven”….if the rich were to fail of entering the kingdom, what hope could there be for the rest of men?”

Okay...clearly "they had been taught" that the rich are the favorites of heaven. Where did they [the Jews] get this idea?

Before I answer this question let's go to the Bible. Let's read Mark 10:23-27

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words.

But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them [:"red"]that trust in riches[:"black"] to enter into the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man [who trusts in his riches] to enter into the kingdom of God. 26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? [1901 American Standard Version]

What does salvation [being saved] have to do with "trusting" in one’s wealth…i.e., being the favorites of heaven?

Turn to the book of the law, Deuteronomy 27:26:

‘Cursed is he who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’

28:1 “NOW it shall be, if you will diligently obey the LORD your God, being careful to do all His commandments which I command you today, the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. 2 “And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you will obey the LORD your God….

Verse 11: And the LORD will make you abound in prosperity….

In the days of Christ a Jew was taught that if you obey God’s law [the Torah] then in return God would open up the sky and pour buckets of the green stuff into your lap. In other words the proof of being “a commandment-keeper” was your wealth. Even today “the world” tends to look at a rich man as a good man blessed of God. Hence, to the Jews a rich man was a good man .

So when Christ said, “It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man [who trusts in his riches] to enter into the kingdom of God”, the disciples fully understood His position. That’s why they were amazed! In their eyes if a rich man, blessed of God for His obedience, couldn’t make it into heaven then who could be saved.

To understand this at deeper level we will have to examine the context of Matt chapter 19.

Later,

Rob

June 16, 2006

Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me [Good Master/teacher] good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

but [i.e., to answer your question (see verse 16) if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself [notice that Christ replaced "thous shall not covet" with "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"].

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, [:"Red"]go and sell that thou hast[/], and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [KJV]

[Mark 10:23] And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26 And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved?

27 Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is mpossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.

[ASV]

June 16, 2006

Uh, uh, here comes the gospel of poverty and self-deprivation again.

[:"red"]"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 NKJ

[/]

Gerry

June 16, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

Uh, uh, here comes the gospel of poverty and self-deprivation again.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 NKJ

Gerry

The question is what are "all these things"?

Verse 31: “Do not be anxious then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘With what shall we clothe ourselves?’....your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.

What things? Riches and wealth? Money falling from the sky? A fine house? A good education? No! Food, drink and clothing - the essentials of life.

Rob

June 19, 2006

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Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

Uh, uh, here comes the gospel of poverty and self-deprivation again.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 NKJ

Gerry

The question is what are "all these things"?

Verse 31: “Do not be anxious then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘With what shall we clothe ourselves?’....your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.

What things? Riches and wealth? Money falling from the sky? A fine house? A good education? No! Food, drink and clothing - the essentials of life.

Rob

[:"blue"]And the food, drink and clothing, they fall out of the sky?

And does the God who owns cattle on a thousand hills, who emptied heaven's storehouse in the person of His Son, is that what He wants His children only to have? Just food, drink, & clothing? No shelter? No pillow? No blanket? No 401K for when you can't work anymore?

[:"red"]"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" Rom 8:32 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

June 20, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

Uh, uh, here comes the gospel of poverty and self-deprivation again.

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added to you." Mt 6:33 NKJ

Gerry

The question is what are "all these things"?

Verse 31: “Do not be anxious then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘With what shall we clothe ourselves?’....your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 “But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.

What things? Riches and wealth? Money falling from the sky? A fine house? A good education? No! Food, drink and clothing - the essentials of life.

Rob

Just food, drink, & clothing? No shelter? No pillow? No blanket? No 401K for when you can't work anymore?

I gave you the context. Please don't add.

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"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?" Rom 8:32 NKJ

Out of context! Nothing is said of riches, etc....Read the context.

But let's say you are right, how come God made you rich but lots of other Christian folks are poor? Please don't tell me that God practices favoritism.

Rob

June 20, 2006

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Robert said:Matt 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

This rich man addressed Christ as a teacher, not as the Son of God. But notice the question: "What good thing" can I do to get into heaven? Does this sound like a man standing on the doctrine of justification by faith or does it sound like a man who wants to earn heaven through a works program? Right, the latter!

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17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me [Good Master/teacher] good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

The first thing Christ questions is why this man referred to Him as a "good" person? Remember that he looked at Christ as a teacher, but not as the Son of God.

How many are "good"? None but One - that is, God! He was trying to tell this man something, but knowing that he wouldn't be convinced Christ gave him his answer:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

but [i.e., to answer your question (see verse 16)] if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Notice that Christ replaced "thou shall not covet" with "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"! In other words from His point of view they are one and the same.

You see in heaven the object of our ambition will never be inward, but rather outward. We will live for others, never ourselves. [see 2T 132]

Here we love-self (some more than others). The spirit of the law demands that we take that natural, sinful love of self and project it towards our neighbor. Anything outside this selfless love is coveting. Hence all that we have gathered in this world involved self-seeking and is contrary to the heavenly principle of agape love. Maybe that's why by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in God's sight....Of course this does not deny growth.

More later,

Rob

June 20, 2006

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Robert said:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

What an attitude! "What lack I? Basically he was saying, "I've been keeping these rules ever since Primary Sabbath School."

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21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, [:"Red"]go and sell that thou hast[/], and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

In other words if you really love your neighbor as you naturally love yourself, then give all your possessions to your neighbor. That's heaven's love! It has no "self" in it...no self-seeking and building of one's kingdom of wealth.

You see Jesus didn't participate in our worldly practices. He was never preoccupied with "getting". So to follow Christ is to follow Him in His self-denial (see RH 7-4-12 ). This is what God's law requires if one desires heaven by "doing something".

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22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [KJV]

He didn't want to let go of his possessions! Why? Because if he did he would be admitting that they weren't gained through his goodness. He would be denying that a rich man is a good man blessed of God because of his law obedience.

More later,

Rob

June 20, 2006

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Here we love-self (some more than others). The spirit of the law demands that we take that natural, sinful love of self and project it towards our neighbor.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but saw this and wanted to say something.

I don't believe that we are to keep this self love alive. We are to die to self. This is the goal, this is what Christ is looking forward to in us. What I'm saying is that the sinful love of self is not to be projected to others. It is to die.

This is obviously not something we just decide to do and it's done. It's a daily falling in love with Christ and as we see more of His love towards us in the state that we are in we are broken and amazed by His love for us.

It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. I look at it this way. I see my sinfulness but not as does Christ but there are times when He reveals this to me and it sickens me. So I ask for forgiveness and ask for help.

I don't try to change although I really want to but I have been a Christian long enough to know that there's very little I can do to change myself except pray and work with God as He reveals to me what I should do.

I have found that true changes come when I am in the act or process of seeking the lost. My desire is to be pure and live right so that no sin clouds my conscience. I have learned of Jesus, "I sanctify myself for their sakes"

Not until we individually see sin as disgusting to God and how it saddens Him that we just play around with it, can we really begin to see a change into that which Christ seeks in us, and we want as well.

Even when this change occurs it will not leave us wanting to give all our possesions away unless we know that it is the time to do so. That time will come.

I think of the five wise virgins they wouldn't share of their oil. That seems selfish but it is not. I think of the pearl of great price. The man sold everything to get it. That seems selfish. I think of the woman who lost her coin and spent a lot of time looking for it. That seem to be selfish but it is not.2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed: That seems selfish too. I also think of Christ in Matt 23 telling the religious leaders what He thought of them and what they were truly like. That can seem selfish too, But it is not.

My point? things that may appear selfish to you and I may not be selfish at all. So how do we determine what is selfish? Every situation and circumstance has its own perameters that need to be taken into account. As we are brought closer into relationship with Christ and the Father we will be able to tell for ourselves and see it in other as well. We see it in us to help us see our need and Christ's great love for us regardless of what we are like and we have the mind of Christ to see it in others to be able to pray for them and minister to them.

That's about it, just had to jump in for a sec. Make sense?

Norman

June 20, 2006

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Norman said:

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Here we love-self (some more than others). The spirit of the law demands that we take that natural, sinful love of self and project it towards our neighbor.

What I'm saying is that the sinful love of self is not to be projected to others. It is to die.

Oh, you misunderstood me. Human love is sinful because it is directed towards oneself - it is inward. Human love is a u-turn agape. When our love is outward and impartial that is God's love.

Here's an example:

Luke 22:24 And there arose also a dispute among them [the disciples] as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 “But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. 27 “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

What Christ is saying is that politicians haven't changed much...they are still self-serving. They're really not servants of the people as they claim to be. They are self-seeking.

Christ gives another example: “For who is greater [in human terms], the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? [in human terms] is it not the one who reclines at the table? But agape love says, "But I am among you as the one who serves."

God lives to serve. He is the greatest because He is servant of all. In heaven we will be just like Him. Yes, we can experience some of this now.

Robert

June 20, 2006

Hi Rob,

I've read what you posted and I want to share some other thoughts with you concerning this.

This is what came to mind as I read what you wrote.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing .

Note that if I give my body as a Martyr to be burned and do not have Agape it profits me nothing. Agape is not something we possess or can originate.

Also,

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Receiving the Holy Spirit gives us this Agape. This Agape is what was lost in the Garden of Eden.

Also, Paul talks about this in Rom 5:5 "and the hope doth not make ashamed, because the love of God hath been poured forth in our hearts through the Holy Spirit that hath been given to us." YLT

If all that was nesscessary to have God's love was to focus our love on others, what would be the point of the Spirit pouring God's love into our hearts.

Finally, 1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Basically John is saying that that only way we can love one another is to have God dwelling in us. That is how we know that God is in us. Well, if we could have our human love do this by turning it outward, there would be no need of God dwelling in us. Then we'd be in confusion not knowing for sure if God is in us. But when God is in us our human love is no longer the guilding force. The love of God shed abroad in our hearts empowers or constrains us to love in a way that is foreign to us because our natural unrenewed heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17: 9 By that we know that it is no longer I that is loving but the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us.

That is what gives us the greatest joy, to be able to overcome things without making up strict rules to try and keep us from doing those things, that we end up breaking anyways. Overcoming and loving give us the assurance that we are living in Christ. Otherwise if we had human love and had to overcome in our own strength we'd have no joy and we'd begin to think we have something to boast about when we actually overcame.

Norman

June 20, 2006

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Norman said: Receiving the Holy Spirit gives us this Agape.

Not necessarily....It's not automatic. I received the HS years ago, but I was very unChrist like. Because of the gospel things have changed, yet I'm still falling short of God's agape....All of us are!

The more we understand the love of God the more we will reflect Him. Where do I get this idea?

2 Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord [his agape love], are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

1 cor 13:9 For our knowledge [context: of love] is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; 10 but when the perfect comes [Jesus], the imperfect will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood. 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Agape is something we reflect more and more as we look unto Christ, resting in His work of redemption obtained some 2000 years ago. We will never perfectly reflect that love according to the above, i.e., until we see Him face to face. Until then grow, but never as a means of salvation.

Rob

June 21, 2006

Hi Rob,

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Agape is something we reflect more and more as we look unto Christ, resting in His work of redemption obtained some 2000 years ago. We will never perfectly reflect that love according to the above, i.e., until we see Him face to face. Until then grow, but never as a means of salvation.

Makes sense and I agree. I was not saying that we would do it perfectly only that it is not our human love, it does not originate with in us. It's not our selfish love that is turned outward. We will have different levels of love if you will. What I mean is that there are some who will open themselves up more to the Holy Spirit than others and will be changed more into the likeness of Christ. But one thing is certain, the selfishness that we posses now must die. There is enough of a revelation of God's love to us to accomplish this.

As we see him through a glass darkly we are revealed things to us by the Holy Spirit that will change us, or crucify us so that we no longer live but Christ lives in us.

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

June 21, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Agape is something we reflect more and more as we look unto Christ, resting in His work of redemption obtained some 2000 years ago. We will never perfectly reflect that love according to the above, i.e., until we see Him face to face. Until then grow, but never as a means of salvation.

Rob

[:"blue"]It was disobedience that put our Lord on the Cross, does agape continue to drive nails into the hands and feet of the One who showed us mercy by continueing in a life of disobedience? [/]

Gerry

June 21, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Agape is something we reflect more and more as we look unto Christ, resting in His work of redemption obtained some 2000 years ago. We will never perfectly reflect that love according to the above, i.e., until we see Him face to face. Until then grow, but never as a means of salvation.

Rob

It was disobedience that.... [/]

Gerry

Someone tell Gerry that he is not measuring up. He doesn't realize this.

Rob

June 22, 2006

There is a universe of difference between not measuring up unintentionally because of our fallen nature and deliberately/intentionally falling short.

There is a world of difference between a bank teller giving you the wrong change because he/she miscounted from scheming and deliberately short-changing the customer. The born again Christian may unintentionally short-change a customer but never deliberately/intentionally short-change anyone.

Gerry

June 22, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

There is a universe of difference between not measuring up unintentionally because of our fallen nature and deliberately/intentionally falling short.

There is a world of difference between a bank teller giving you the wrong change because he/she miscounted from scheming and deliberately short-changing the customer. The born again Christian may unintentionally short-change a customer but never deliberately/intentionally short-change anyone.

And God knows the heart in both cases, so He is a righteous Judge

June 22, 2006

Amen!!!

Gerry

June 22, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:There is a universe of difference between not measuring up unintentionally because of our fallen nature and deliberately/intentionally falling short.

The law doesn't care if it is deliberate or unintentional. Yet you keep insisting that we are under the jurisdiction of the law. Which is it, Gerry...are we under grace or under law? Just answer that with no additions.

June 23, 2006

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Robert said:

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are we under grace or under law?

Not that you are asking anyone but Gerry, Robert, thought this might explain the position in which some find necessary assurance.

[:"red"] "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." [/] Hebrews 4:15 NKJV

[:"red"] "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. " [/] John 15:10 NASB

Seems to me the logic is that the way to abide in God's love is to keep the commandments, whether Jesus' or the Father's.

[:"red"] "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [/] Isaiah 9:6 KJV

[:"red"] "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." [/] Galatians 6:2 NASB

Keep the faith!!

[:"red"] "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?" [/] James 2:17,18,20 NKJV

June 23, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2 NASB

Bad theology, LifeHicost.

As long as I bear my fellow believers' burdens I can enjoy the women at a topless bar, etc, etc.. In other words as long as I'm taking care of my fellow believers' burdens I am fulfilling the law of Christ even though I am indulging the flesh. Wow, this is great!

June 23, 2006

Who is under the jurisdiction of the law/married to the law/under condemnation of the law? The one is obeying it or the one who has disobeyed it?

Gerry

June 23, 2006

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Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2 NASB

Bad theology, LifeHicost.

As long as I bear my fellow believers' burdens I can enjoy the women at a topless bar, etc, etc.. In other words as long as I'm taking care of my fellow believers' burdens I am fulfilling the law of Christ even though I am indulging the flesh. Wow, this is great!

[:"blue"]Actually it is YOUR theology that tries to accommodate TWO masters, i.e. claiming to serve God while still satisfying the lusts of the flesh. [/]

Gerry

June 23, 2006

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Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2 NASB

Bad theology, LifeHicost.

As long as I bear my fellow believers' burdens I can enjoy the women at a topless bar, etc, etc.. In other words as long as I'm taking care of my fellow believers' burdens I am fulfilling the law of Christ even though I am indulging the flesh. Wow, this is great!

Sorry for the sarcasm. I was trying to make a point while to rushing out the door this morning. I perceived that you were trying to limit the law to only burden bearing when in reality it is so much more.

Your turn,

Rob

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