Real Torture

[Dr. Shane]

I haven't heard it reported on any American media outlets yet. The Mexican channels are reporting the American soldiers that we captured had their eyes gouged out, the finger nails pulled off and were beheaded.

Somehow I think I would rather be tortured by US soldiers in Abu Grab than to be caught by these misunderstood terrorsist following the peaceful religion of Islam.

[Planey]

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Somehow I think I would rather be tortured by US soldiers in Abu Grab (sic) than to be caught by these misunderstood terrorsist following the peaceful religion of Islam.

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I would prefer to avoid either option. US troops are not exactly flavour of the month in the rest of the world at the moment, Shane.

When you adopt a posture as Saviour of the World or even just Policeman of the World, you have set yourself up to be watched through a large magnifying glass. It is difficult to maintain a position of occupying the high moral ground when incidents such as the latest reported atrocities following on from the Abu Ghraib business come to light.

Graeme

[Gregory Matthews]

There is a large number of U.S. military officers who feel shamed by the events at AG. No one should assume that the majority of military officers find that to have been acceptable.

Many of us believe that such will cost us dearly in the long run.

[Dr. Shane]

I think the incidents at AG, and the coverage by the anti-American media, has cost us a lot already. However when we see how these savages torture their enemies it really places things in prespective.

American soldiers didn't jerk out fingernails or gouge out anyone's eyes. What the American soldiers did was wrong and they played right into the anti-American media but it was not even close to the level of torture these savages use.

The savage torture of these soldiers should steel America's resolve to win this war. Leaving without winning would be dishonoring everyone that gave their life over there.

[Gregory Matthews]

I understand the points that Shane has made. He has made some that in thier own venue are worthy of consideration.

But, I will say that many military personnel would take strong exception to his statement that the brutal actions of the other side puts things in perspective. It does not.

[Neil D]

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Somehow I think I would rather be tortured by US soldiers in Abu Grab than to be caught by these misunderstood terrorsist following the peaceful religion of Islam.

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Let's think about this...you've grown up in a poverty country, where the haves are not much better than you...your basic source of information is various newspapers who have taken stock of the world opinion from thier point of view,[and when the US and Europe have not helped in the political relm] and your religious leaders have taken a stand against opulant wealth, you are then vulnerable to extreme views...And when things like Abu Grab happen, your newspapers make a big deal about it...So, when guysof your pursuasion [aka political point of view] grab some of your enemy [ie US soldiers] and torture them like the US soldiers did to your freedom fighters [they don't know how much 'torture' we did, and besides, ALL newspapers either underreport the news, spin it toward the US, don't tell all of the truth], well, your guys are justified in torturing and beheading your enemies....It's called 'eye for an eye' revenge....

[bevin]

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However when we see how these savages torture their enemies it really places things in prespective.

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We blow away whole wedding parties, and kill children, just because some "insurgent" might be in the house. This makes us humane and righteous, because blowing bodies apart with 500lb of high explosive is ok if done from a $18M plane at 30,000 feet.

Our enemies capture our soldiers, and pull their fingernails out with pliers. This makes them inhumane and evil, because using cheap tools is naughty.

Welcome to assymetric warfare. If you have a huge $$$ and tech advantage over your enemy, expect them to do things that don't require those attributes.

We have killed over 100,000 Iraqi's.

We invaded their country to do it.

They have killed less than 10,000 of us.

What makes us so righteous?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

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I will say that many military personnel would take strong exception to his statement that the brutal actions of the other side puts things in perspective. It does not.

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What the US does, which is considered torture, is exposing prisoners to tempenture extreames (heat and cold), making them sweat and then shiver. Making them sleep in the own urine and excrement. Depriving them of sleep while making them listen to hard rock music. These types of things are considered to be torture by anti-americans.

Contrast those things to ripping out finger nails, gouging out eyes, cutting out tounges, and beheading and one starts to see that the US isn't as bad has her enemies would have one believe.

There is a lot of truth to the suggestion that the terrorists are themselves victems of their clerics and bias forms of media. Yet that doesn't change the fact that they are savages although it explains why they are the way they are.

Innocent victems of war happen in every single war. How many bombs that fell from allied planes killed innocent victems in Germany during WW2? Yet we do not blame President Roosevelt or Winston Churchchill for the war. The blame is placed upon Hitler. In the same respect, Saddam is to blame for the war in Iraq. He was bluffing in a game in which he shouldn't have even been dealt a hand. He was given 48 hours to leave the country. He is to blame for this war - not President Bush or Tony Blair.

[Nan]

What do you call locking up people for years in extremely basic conditions, depriving them of all hope, and when in desperation they commit suicide, call it an act of warfare?

[Dr. Shane]

Sounds like a Mexican jail.

[bevin]

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The blame is placed upon Hitler. In the same respect, Saddam is to blame for the war in Iraq. He was bluffing in a game in which he shouldn't have even been dealt a hand.

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The blame for WW-II, in my New Zealand education (i.e. pro-British) history courses, was placed on the allies treatment of Germany at the end of WW-I. The rise of Hitler was largely a consequence of the economic mess created by the allies.

Saddam was bluffing? How? By telling the truth that he didn't have WMD? By showing the UN weapons inspectors?

THE UN WEAPONS INSPECTORS TOLD BUSH THAT THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF WMD.

And Bush, as I have repeatedly given you the reference for, knew the evidence was flimsy.

Furthermore everyone except Bush et al KNEW that Iraq was not going to be "mission accomplished" after a few days.

We needed to wins the hearts and minds of most of the world to get them to cooperate with us. Instead GWB's bungling has turned the USA from having the sympathy of the world - after 9/11 - to being seen as THE BIGGEST danger to world peace.

Torture - I remind you - was what Bush wanted to be officially part of US policy! Only after Congress really pushed him did he relent - and STILL he claims he doesn't have to follow the law of the land anyway, so he can sign a piece of paper saying "The US makes it illegal to torture" AND AT THE SAME TIME order his secret warriors to torture people in secret bases in foreign countries.

GWB is undoubtably the worst USA president in my lifetime, and possibly ever.

/Bevin

[aldona]

[]http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/06/21/svCARTOON_gallery__470x331.jpg[/]

[Bravus]

I'm not sure that 'I may be a murderer but I'm not as bad as Jack the Ripper' is exactly the moral high ground...

[Dr. Shane]

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The blame for WW-II... was placed on the allies treatment of Germany at the end of WW-I.

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There is a lot of truth to this but it is like saying the girl dressed in slutty clothes and drinking at a college frat party was asking to be raped or the guy leaving a $100 on the dashboard of his car was asking to get robbed. The way the Allies treated Germany at the end of WW1 did set the wheels in motion for WW2 but two wrongs never make a right.

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Saddam was bluffing? How? By telling the truth that he didn't have WMD?

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Saddam leaked false information which claimed he had WMDs while publicly claiming he didn't have them. His own intelligence agency believed he had WMDs.

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And Bush, as I have repeatedly given you the reference for, knew the evidence was flimsy.

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This is simply not true. While there was some doubt, the weight of the evidence was that Saddam had WMDs. Over 30 nations joined the US in its action against Iraq. 30 nations are not going to act together on flimsy evidence.

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GWB is undoubtably the worst USA president in my lifetime, and possibly ever.

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The same was said about Harry Truman by many at the time.

[bevin]

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This is simply not true. While there was some doubt, the weight of the evidence was that Saddam had WMDs. Over 30 nations joined the US in its action against Iraq. 30 nations are not going to act together on flimsy evidence.

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The UN Weapons Inspectors said that the weapons weren't there. Bush et al ridiculed them.

Most of the 30 nations did it to get in GWB's good books.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The UN inspectors didn't claim there were no WMDs in Iraq until after the coalition forces had moved in and discovered that themselves.

Now we know that Saddam didn't destroy all the WMDs he claimed he destroyed.

What did Hans Blix say in March 2003 abo...ad Disarmed? NO

[Dr. Shane]

One of these boys was from just down the street. News reports are saying he was from Houston because that is where is 18 year-old widow now lives. But his family is from Brownsville and that is were they are bringing his remains. They are collecting money for a his family.

Reports say they ripped off his fingernails, gouged out his eyes, cut out his heart and then cut off his head. I can't imagine how hard it is for his family to have to deal with this.

[bevin]

Probably about as hard as it is for the parents of the children torn to shreds by missiles targeted at houses where we thought insurgents might be.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

That is doubtful and shows a real lack of sympathy for what these people are going through. Now the family of the people Saddam fed through tree shedders may understand what these folks are going through.

[cricket]

Actually, it shows an understanding that the loss of life is tragic to all who have lost a loved one. Especially in senseless cases as children being killed.

[Dr. Shane]

Grieving the loss of a loved one is hard. When a person is wounded and bleeds to death that certainly isn't pain free. However it is much worse when a person is tortured to death. It is harder to recover from the grief when a person knows their child died by having their finger nails ripped off one by one. Then their eyes gouged out. Then theie heart cut out. Those are the things going through this family's mind when they lay down to sleep and close their eyes. Oh how their loved one must have been tormented. It would have been so much easier for him just to be wounded and bleed to death.

To compare this act of deliberate torture to the accidental killing of children shows a person doesn't grasp the issues at hand. War is hell and civilians have always been killed accidentally. However POWs are not to be tortured and killed. How dare someone criticise the US for how it handles prisoners in Guantanamo and then make light of how these savages torture our soldiers!

[cricket]

In the eyes of the torturers, these soldiers are the very ones who "accidentally" killed their children.

[Dr. Shane]

Yes, their false religion has twisted their minds. It almost seems as if to the point where there is no hope for them. That aspect of the story makes it even more tragic.

[bevin]

Shane, when a military force deliberately targets a house full of people to get some persons who might be in the house, it is not an accident.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The blame in that circumstance lies with the terrorists. How dare they place innocent women and children inside military targets. The US military doesn't allow members of our military to take their families into combat with them. If the terrorists were to bomb one of our military establishments they would not kill any innocent women and children because we wouldn't have them there. If terrorists insist on placing their women and children inside their mililtary headquarters, then their women and children will become targets as much as their headquarters are.