Death Penalty for sex offenders?

July 7, 2006

Removal of the prostate gland would not affect testosterone production. If he was given one of the chemical castration implants the osteoporosis could well have been a side effect of that drug. There are other side effects also and I only took two implants before I said NO MORE! Some prostate cancers are very slow but others are not. I had 5 weeks of radiation treatments which appear to have been successful but only time will tell. I am 89.

As far as the study quoted by Amelia goes I doubt if it proves anything but that the hormone therapy appears to be implicated there also. Otherwise there are just too many vaiables that could cause fractured bones.

But we digress from the title of the thread.

mel

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

I would like to see ALL sex offenders neutered, and monitored afterward that they not take sex hormones. No man will ever be able to use his weapon ever again after this procedure.

Gerry

Okay...then I would like to see all women who have their offspring aborted to have their tubes permanently tied so as not to murder again.

How's that for an eye for an eye?

Rob

July 8, 2006

And while we are at it let's not stop with just rape and murder. Let's go all the way:

Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Let's stone the person who gathers firewood on the Sabbath!

Lev 24:16 Anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him.

Okay...who has took the name of the Lord in vain? You must die!

Let’s continue to look at these “heinous" criminals:

Deut 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us….” 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

In a nutshell, "You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." [Deuteronomy 19:19-21]

July 8, 2006

Abortion is not considered a crime in this country; rape is.

Gerry

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

Abortion is not considered a crime in this country; rape is.

Gerry

Oh, sorry...then it's a righteous thing to do. Dumb me,

Rob

July 8, 2006

[:"blue"]"The soul who sins shall die.....But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die." Ez 18:20-24 NKJ

"The wages of sin is death." Rom 6:23 [/]

Gerry

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: [:"blue"]"The soul who sins shall die.....But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

I see a contradiction. See if you can follow:

1] The soul who sins shall die!

2] if a wicked man turns from all his sins...he shall not die.

According to # 1 if I sin I must die.

According to # 2 if I turn from my sin I can live.

How can I turn if I am dead?

Did the sinners who got stoned in the O.T. under the O.C. get a second chance? Heck no!

So what are you talking about Gerry, huh?

Are you saying if the child rapist/murder repents he should go free?

Make your mind up!

Rob

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:... None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

This is Old Testament, old covenant junk...period!!! It produces legalists....

Think about it: If my righteous deeds makes up for my unrighteous deeds I can MERIT heaven. God's going to have some grand scale with my transgressions on one side and my good deeds on the other. If they tip towards my good deeds I get heaven! Glory for me!

Legalism I say, Legalism of the highest order! Go to the NT and read Paul. He cleared this mess up....

Rob

July 8, 2006

Hi Rob,

God said to His people that if they committed these types offenses that they would be stoned to death. (OT) The nations surrounding His people were not stoned for the same type of offenses, but after a certain time God dealt with them.

Well now we don't have stonings, but there will be a Stone that will crush all that offends in the end.( which is the substance of the shaddow) Our mission is to bring Jesus to all and let God take care of these things through His appointed people in government.

If this happens in the church, then it should be reported to the authorities. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

In a nutshell? We can discuss this all we want but it is not up to us to determine what to do with any criminals. We are the church and cannot make decisions like this. We start getting into church and state issues if we do. Our Example never got involved in these types of things because He had a greater mission and so do we.

Norman

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Norman said:God said to His people that if they committed these types offenses that they would be stoned to death

Funny Jesus let the woman caught in adultery go....And she didn't even repent!

Norm what you need to understand is that the Jews chose to be "under law"! It's called the Old Covenant!

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil.

I'm not sure what Paul had in mind when he stated this (murder, stealing, etc?). This same government (Roman) crucified an innocent man - Jesus Christ! This same corrupt, government would crucify runaway slaves. This same government killed Christians. This same government murdered Paul (and many of the other disciples). This same government had gladiators who would fight to the death, legally. Prostitution was legal.

I think what Paul is trying to say is that any government is better than no government. Why? Because you have anarchy.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

We can discuss this all we want but it is not up to us to determine what to do with any criminals.

And if you think that God has given absolute authority to sinful governments think again! Here in the US many sins are okay and carry no sentence. The worst is abortion. We live in a world that practices discrimination. We live in a world of preferential treatment. We really live in a world that practices lawlessness and injustice.....

July 8, 2006

The doctors told us it was the prostate removal that caused the Osterperosis. Argue with the doctors then. Yes it is the testicles that produce the testosterone. However it is done the removal of the prostate did affect my grandfathers testosterone levels which caused the osterperosis.

Low levels of testosterone do cause Osteoprosis

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July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Norman said:God said to His people that if they committed these types offenses that they would be stoned to death. (OT) The nations surrounding His people were not stoned for the same type of offenses, but after a certain time God dealt with them.

Sorry Norm...I was rude…This is a hot subject and people get passionate....Let me restate my position:

Jesus says, "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out"....Okay?

The Jews wanted to be ruled by law. They said, God you give us your law and we will keep it and in return you give us heaven. So God entered this covenant with them on the condition of obedience, but IF they messed up they had to die. No grace...law, law, law!

Now what about the Gentiles who were destroyed? Did God do it? Well, no....You see they persistently rejected Christ. They refused to come to Him....So He had to abandoned them. When He did trouble followed - i.e., cause and effect.

July 8, 2006

Oh...and BTW I have a conundrum for you:

Deut 19:21 “Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person....43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies

July 8, 2006

Hi Rob

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Sorry Norm...I was rude…This is a hot subject and people get passionate

I wasn't offened, but accept your kindness.

There were times when God let the Gentiles reap what they sowed but there were times when angels of God destroyed them at God's command.

Norman

July 8, 2006

Hi Rob

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Sorry Norm...I was rude…This is a hot subject and people get passionate

I wasn't offened, but accept your kindness.

There were times when God let the Gentiles reap what they sowed but there were times when angels of God destroyed them at God's command.

As for today's governments, yes I agree there is a lot of corruption that is sickening. I realized that as I was writing. I believe there are still men and women in government that are doing God's bidding. There will come a time when it will be as the days of Noah and all will be corrupt. There are still some good laws made by government. It seems we have a problem with some judges though.

We still have a mission and it's not determining what to do with criminals. God has set up a government that is barely able to do what's right but is still in most cases doing good. (The abortion laws will be changed I beleive.)

Norman

July 8, 2006

now how did that happen???

I replied once and it didn't go through so I replied again and now they are both here,

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Oh...and BTW I have a conundrum for you:

Deut 19:21 “Thus you shall not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person....43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies

Not a problem,

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Stoning was a shadow of that which is to come Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.

Let me know what you think,

Norman

July 8, 2006

I AM a doctor, an internist. Mel is correct. Removal of the prostate does NOT deprive the man of testosterone. What happens is that when the cancer recurs AFTER the prostate is removed, or recurs AFTER radiation treatments, the testes are removed as another treatment option of last resort. That's when testosterone deprivation occurs & osteoporosis sets in. Of course, aging itself causes osteoporosis. There are other causes for osteoporosis, e.g. the medications that either stops the production of testosterone or neutralizes the testosterone. These are often given in preparation to radiation or bracchytherapy (radioactive seed implants), or when the cancer has widely metastasized. Other causes of osteoporosis: excess thyroid hormone, excess intake of acidic substances that have to be buffered by the calcium salts that has to come from the bones (e.g. too much soda pop with its carbonic acid content), my recollection is that even coffee can contribute to osteoporosis.

June last year, I had prostate surgery by robotic (DaVinci machine). Of course, a surgeon still has to manipulate the machine, but this is microsurgery. Only tiny incisions are made; there is minimal blood loss, and I went home the day after surgery. I can assure you, my testosterone level is NORMAL. I just checked it 2 weeks ago, along with my PSA which was so far undetectable (good news for me). And the equipment still works (after a fashion <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />), and I have total urinary control.

For all you men who might have prostate ca and are candidates for surgery, in the current state of medical technology, robotic or laparascopic prostatectomy is the only way to go.

Gerry

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:... None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

This is Old Testament, old covenant junk...period!!! It produces legalists....

[:"blue"]God's OT words junk? Huh? Did God change His mind that those who persist in a life of sin now live instead of die?

According to the last book in the NT, "..the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 NKJ. John a legalist, huh? [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Think about it: If my righteous deeds makes up for my unrighteous deeds I can MERIT heaven.

[:"blue"]Only born-again people who have a TRUE LIVING faith can produce good works, the RESULT/EVIDENCE/FRUIT of that faith. [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

God's going to have some grand scale with my transgressions on one side and my good deeds on the other. If they tip towards my good deeds I get heaven! Glory for me!

[:"blue"]No, woe to you or anyone, if after you believe you still continue to live in sin, Heb 10:26-29. [/]

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Legalism I say, Legalism of the highest order! Go to the NT and read Paul. He cleared this mess up....

Rob

[:"blue"]Yeah, he said, "the wages of sin IS death", Rom 6:23, same thought as Ez 18! [/]

Gerry

July 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: God's OT words junk?

It is when you try to use it on me. The old covenant was given to a people because they wanted to be "under law". You seem to have the same desire.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yeah, he said, "the wages of sin IS death", Rom 6:23, same thought as Ez 18!

Absolutely not! Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Because of the gift I get to go scott free where in Ez its about performance.

July 9, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: God's OT words junk?

It is when you try to use it on me. The old covenant was given to a people because they wanted to be "under law". You seem to have the same desire.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Yeah, he said, "the wages of sin IS death", Rom 6:23, same thought as Ez 18!

Absolutely not! Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Because of the gift I get to go scott free where in Ez its about performance.

[:"blue"]So the gift is still mine even if continue to steal, fornicate, murder, or cheat? You can claim the gift all you want, God says: [:"red"]"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 NKJ. No aid and comfort to your false assurance here. [/] [/]

Gerry

July 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: So the gift is still mine even if continue to steal, fornicate, murder, or cheat? You can claim the gift all you want, God says: "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 NKJ. No aid and comfort to your false assurance here. [/]

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry (and I am shaking my head). You are deceived by your own righteousness. If God were to let you represent yourself before His Holy law you be treated just like a sex offender for you would be guilty.

Rev 21:8 is referring to the unbelieving, hence their sins are listed. When you accept the gift God no longer views you in your wretched state rather He sees you "in Christ". You are clothed with His righteousness.

You just don't get it. And neither does a lot of the folks who run our judicial system. Hence the attitude, "Kill'm!"

July 10, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: So the gift is still mine even if continue to steal, fornicate, murder, or cheat? You can claim the gift all you want, God says: "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 NKJ. No aid and comfort to your false assurance here. [/]

Gerry, Gerry, Gerry (and I am shaking my head). You are deceived by your own righteousness. If God were to let you represent yourself before His Holy law you be treated just like a sex offender for you would be guilty.

Rev 21:8 is referring to the unbelieving, hence their sins are listed. When you accept the gift God no longer views you in your wretched state rather He sees you "in Christ". You are clothed with His righteousness.

You just don't get it. And neither does a lot of the folks who run our judicial system. Hence the attitude, "Kill'm!"

[:"blue"]And who is the REAL believer? The one who says, "I believe," but keeps on living/doing the same old life, or the one who turns on a new leaf?

"Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter....but he who does the will..." [/]

Gerry

July 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: And who is the REAL believer? The one who says, "I believe," but keeps on living/doing the same old life, or the one who turns on a new leaf?

"Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter....but he who does the will..."

Gerry

I've got a great idea - why don't you represent yourself before God's law? Again, if you did you would be just as guilty as those sex-offenders! The law would put you in death row, no matter how righteous you might think yourself to be.....

Rob

July 12, 2006

I, too, as well as others here working in the medical field, I'm sure support Gerry's explanation in re: the source of testosterone in the male body. Cyberguy's grandfather, regardless of what those doctors 'said' or what is perceived they 'said, probably had either or both the tendency via inheritance to osteoporosis, or, he had along with his prostate removal, castration. In past years castration was more commonly used to 'fight' prostate cancer than it is today....because of men's desires to continue to have or preserve the possibility to have sexual relations...even though they may die from prostate cancer.

It will be no surprise that men cherish the ability to have sex. And without testicles producing testosterone there isn't going to be much sex and libido will be greatly diminished, also. I've never known of a man to have sex after castration. I suppose its possible but, believe me, its pretty rare. Therefor, I would treat all court-judged men convicted of 'rape' to have as a first treatment the removal of ONE testicle, whatever other punishment the court might require. That'd be a warning to the sensible guilty. If the victim was killed or harmed seriously physically I would favor total castration as well as whatever punishment the court would determine. Sexual offenders have a very high degree of recidivism. But removing ONE testicle for each offense of 'rape' conviction would be a deterrent to many and would be very effective in reducing additional recidivism. If they rape after full castration, they have forfeited their 'right' to life on this earth, IMO.

Soon it would get around to young men that rape, actual, or accused might cost him ONE testicle each time. I've never known of a man with more than TWO testicles. Of course some men may have only one testicle...Well, if that's the case he'd better be DOUBLE sure he doesn't get accused of rape. (No law is perfect and injustice simply is never able to be totally avoided....so-o-o, life has its risks!)

Ben

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