The Reformers Understanding of Moral Vs. Ceremonial Law

[stinsonmarri]

2 hours ago, bonnie said:

I am glad I  did not insult you, never had been my intent. Again questioning comments made by you is only hateful and angry to those that feel they should not be challenged.

Hopefully with that squared away you are willing to return to the original topic. GH Hansen and Gustave seem to want to continue the topic so out of consideration for them it would probably be a good idea. I for one find the back and forth between the two and their different viewpoints interesting. 

For someone that is always praying for those they believe are angry, the sarcasm used does not jell with the words of piety. Just saying  Oh great one!

Have a good day, I am looking forward to Gustave and GH Hansen continuing the topic

Bonnie: It's a fact you still on something I chose to say about those who do not wanted to be mandated. Anything to start a fight. You want to continue to talk to someone who you feel is petty. You are full of hatred and I stand because you Bonnie do not like what I write. So what! Well there is another person who is saying the same thing I have stated and you did not mention him. It's all about me! We both know why! You have truly shown your true color today and I will continue to say that YAHWEH'S Commandments are not the Sacrificial Laws. The latter could never take away sin and the Sabbath is still binding. Now, what's your point? I putting anyone down because the Catholic is the little horn of Daniel? Come on Bonnie here is you Scripture for the unvaccinated who not want to be told what do.

 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I AM YAHWEH. Lev 19:18

But in vain they do worship ME, teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men. Mat 15:9

If you have a problem with man's laws (mandate) and do not want to be safe for your neighbor sake that is what the vaccination is for. Then you will have a problem with YAHWEH'S Commandment. When I was young we went by the law of the land and had to be vaccinated. It saved us  from a lot of diseases. It is going to come down that businesses will not allow people to work, eat, sleep, fly or whatever unless you vaccinated. What gets me it was your man last year who started the warp speed and he is vaccinated but many won't and they are dying. So, Bonnie it's a choice and now children and babies are dying. Sad!

Blessings!

Edited August 6, 2021 by stinsonmarri
Corrections

[GHansen]

3 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

So, the only question that remains for me was HOW Luther viewed "the rite of the Sabbath" prior to Moses & the Ten Commandments. From what I've read & understood Luther was TOTALLY against the ceremonial aspects of the Sabbath as it went beyond "MORAL" or "NATURAL" Law. From what I've read about Luther observing the Sabbath could occur on ANY day of the week one read / listened to the Word of God. 

All I'm attempting to do with my questions is determine IF Luther's understanding of the rite of the Sabbath ( pre Moses ) IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING. Does your definition of keeping the Sabbath align with what Luther meant when he said Abraham observed it.  If it turns out in the end that experts concur with you I'll have to concede I was totally wrong which I won't have any problem doing whatsoever. If it goes the other way I'll simply add this to my growing list of other Sabbath canard's I've heard affirmed by Christadelphians, SDA"s and WWCOG folks. 

 

Gustave, volume 1 of Luther's  works, on the first chapters of Genesis, mentions the Sabbath numerous times.  He makes it fairly clear there that he believed that the earth was about 6000 years old. He noted that the Jews reckoned days from sundown to sundown; he also clearly indicated that a day was not an allegorical or mystical reference to a period of time. It was a day in the sense that  people of his era understood a day, i.e., the earth was created in 6 periods [days] of sunset to sunset. The sabbath was observed on the 7th day. It was to be a special day of praise, worship and devotion to God. Note the following references to How the Sabbath was observed or how it should have been observed by Adam:

"It follows, therefore, from this passage [Gen. 2:3] that if Adam had remained in the state of innocence, he nevertheless would have held the seventh day sacred. That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle. Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"So, then, this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the place where trees of this kind were planted in large number, would have been the church at which Adam, together with his descendants, would have gathered on the Sabbath day. And after refreshing themselves from the tree of life he would have praised God and lauded Him for the dominion over all the creatures on the earth which had been given to mankind" [Comments on Gn. 2:16,17].

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, p. 105). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, volume 1 of Luther's  works, on the first chapters of Genesis, mentions the Sabbath numerous times.  He makes it fairly clear there that he believed that the earth was about 6000 years old. He noted that the Jews reckoned days from sundown to sundown; he also clearly indicated that a day was not an allegorical or mystical reference to a period of time. It was a day in the sense that  people of his era understood a day, i.e., the earth was created in 6 periods [days] of sunset to sunset. The sabbath was observed on the 7th day. It was to be a special day of praise, worship and devotion to God. Note the following references to How the Sabbath was observed or how it should have been observed by Adam:

"It follows, therefore, from this passage [Gen. 2:3] that if Adam had remained in the state of innocence, he nevertheless would have held the seventh day sacred. That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle. Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"So, then, this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the place where trees of this kind were planted in large number, would have been the church at which Adam, together with his descendants, would have gathered on the Sabbath day. And after refreshing themselves from the tree of life he would have praised God and lauded Him for the dominion over all the creatures on the earth which had been given to mankind" [Comments on Gn. 2:16,17].

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, p. 105). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

 

For clarification, how much of the above Luther quotes do you agree with? 

[GHansen]

Gustave, What I might agree with is not important. Luther colored his commentary with his imagination, which was quite active. He was in many, respects, quite conservative. Certain facts I agree with, such as the Jewish reckoning of days. The age of the earth, based on the existing chronology of Scripture, literally understood, is relatively short. Interesting to note that he was in agreement with Ellen White in several areas that are not clearly described in Scripture. 

I definitely disagree with his characterization of parts of the Decalogue as ceremonial, specifically the Sabbath and the proscription of idolatry. 

[Gustave]

4 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, What I might agree with is not important. Luther colored his commentary with his imagination, which was quite active. He was in many, respects, quite conservative. Certain facts I agree with, such as the Jewish reckoning of days. The age of the earth, based on the existing chronology of Scripture, literally understood, is relatively short. Interesting to note that he was in agreement with Ellen White in several areas that are not clearly described in Scripture. 

I definitely disagree with his characterization of parts of the Decalogue as ceremonial, specifically the Sabbath and the proscription of idolatry. 

Do you agree that Moses and the Children of Israel reckoned the evening ushered in the following day so that Monday evening after the sun went down meant that it was actually Tuesday. 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

Do you agree that Moses and the Children of Israel reckoned the evening ushered in the following day so that Monday evening after the sun went down meant that it was actually Tuesday. 

Gustave, As for the reckoning of a day, I submit the following passage. It appears to state, rather clearly, that the day of Atonement began on the evening of the 9th day and went to the evening of the 10th day. That period of time is defined as the 10th day. I would expect that all Sabbaths would be reckoned in that manner:

26  The LORD spoke to Moses, saying:
27  Now, the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you: you shall deny yourselves and present the Lord’s offering by fire;
28  and you shall do no work during that entire day; for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29  For anyone who does not practice self-denial during that entire day shall be cut off from the people.
30  And anyone who does any work during that entire day, such a one I will destroy from the midst of the people.
31  You shall do no work: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.
32  It shall be to you a sabbath of complete rest, and you shall deny yourselves; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.

[stinsonmarri]

3 hours ago, GHansen said:

That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle.

GHansen: I love most definitely, how you defend the Sabbath. It was great and true. However, in the Garden the Adams both male and female had the same name.

 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that ELOHIYM created man (the word is Adam and does not mean man. It means flesh with blood [ruddy]), in the LIKENESS of ELOHIYM made HE him (this word him is not in the Hebrew it was added in the middle ages.); Male and female created HE them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Gen 5:1, 2

Was the male mortal or flesh being made first, yes! To name the animals and to see that had both male and female. Each animal female was called in aid to protect and surround him according to the actual root meaning. For meet in Hebrew it mean a counterpart to stand boldly out opposite by his side as equal partners. They did not have to till but keep it. They did not have tend to the cattle all the animals in the Garden were obedient. Finally they did not have to sacrifice either that means to kill animals. There were no blood shedding the Garden.

4 hours ago, GHansen said:

"So, then, this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or the place where trees of this kind were planted in large number, would have been the church at which Adam, together with his descendants, would have gathered on the Sabbath day. And after refreshing themselves from the tree of life he would have praised God and lauded Him for the dominion over all the creatures on the earth which had been given to mankind" [Comments on Gn. 2:16,17].

You cannot go by mythological comment. The Tree of Good and Evil was only place in the center of the Garden. It was one tree and the word church did not exist in ancient times.

Happy Sabbath and Blessings!

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, As for the reckoning of a day, I submit the following passage. It appears to state, rather clearly, that the day of Atonement began on the evening of the 9th day and went to the evening of the 10th day. That period of time is defined as the 10th day. I would expect that all Sabbaths would be reckoned in that manner:

26  The LORD spoke to Moses, saying:
27  Now, the tenth day of this seventh month is the day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation for you: you shall deny yourselves and present the Lord’s offering by fire;
28  and you shall do no work during that entire day; for it is a day of atonement, to make atonement on your behalf before the LORD your God.
29  For anyone who does not practice self-denial during that entire day shall be cut off from the people.
30  And anyone who does any work during that entire day, such a one I will destroy from the midst of the people.
31  You shall do no work: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your settlements.
32  It shall be to you a sabbath of complete rest, and you shall deny yourselves; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening you shall keep your sabbath.

So you're applying what God told the Israelites to do pertaining to the Day of Atonement to another Feast day (the Sabbath)? So, you're adding to what God said. 

In any event IF the next day started in the evening of the prior day there wouldn't have been an instruction like that for the Day of Atonement. 

Nor would you see things like below: 

Genesis 16,23: And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field

 

Genesis 1,3:  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

The 3rd Commandment says to honor the 7th DAY. 

This is different than the Commandment to honor the Day of Atonement by starting its observance prior to the tenth day when it became DARK (night) in the evening of the 9th day. 

Matthew 28, 1:  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, As for the reckoning of a day, I submit the following passage. It appears to state, rather clearly, that the day of Atonement began on the evening of the 9th day and went to the evening of the 10th day. That period of time is defined as the 10th day. I would expect that all Sabbaths would be reckoned in that manner:

 

 

 

Actually, the Bible defines that period of time as including parts of two days - the evening of the 9th and the 10th day. 

Verse 27: Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you

Verse 32: "It [ the D.O.A ] shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

 

Leviticus 7,15
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving SHALL BE EATEN THE SAME DAY IT WAS OFFERED; HE SHALL NOT LEAVE ANY OF IT UNTIL THE MORNING.

If you offered a sacrifice at the equivalent of 2pm on Monday you had to eat it the same day it was offered AND you had until Tuesday morning [ which the Bible says would be the NEXT DAY ] to get the job done. 

[GHansen]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

 

Actually, the Bible defines that period of time as including parts of two days - the evening of the 9th and the 10th day. 

Verse 27: Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you

Verse 32: "It [ the D.O.A ] shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

 

Leviticus 7,15
And the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offerings for thanksgiving SHALL BE EATEN THE SAME DAY IT WAS OFFERED; HE SHALL NOT LEAVE ANY OF IT UNTIL THE MORNING.

If you offered a sacrifice at the equivalent of 2pm on Monday you had to eat it the same day it was offered AND you had until Tuesday morning [ which the Bible says would be the NEXT DAY ] to get the job done. 

Not sure what your point is here. According to Leviticus 23. the 10th day of the 7th month began during the twilight/sunset of the 9th day. It ended when the sun set on the 10 the day. Times were not exact. 

Judges 8:33 explains that the morning began with the sunrise. I would therefore guess that the day ended with sunset.

As for Leviticus 7, if the peace offering were made in the evening, it would be consumed prior to the following sunrise. There are other possible explanations that would be speculation at this point. If you work hard enough, you can probably come up with numerous alternatives to the obvious. Some people have made careers of ridiculing and scoffing at Scripture in one way or another.

According to Leviticus 23, the tenth day began at sunset of the 9th day and ended at sunset on the tenth day. For example, the weekly Sabbath begins at sunset on the 6th day and ends with sunset of the 7th day, which is also the beginning of the 1st day.

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, GHansen said:

Not sure what your point is here. According to Leviticus 23. the 10th day of the 7th month began during the twilight/sunset of the 9th day. It ended when the sun set on the 10 the day. Times were not exact. 

Judges 8:33 explains that the morning began with the sunrise. I would therefore guess that the day ended with sunset.

As for Leviticus 7, if the peace offering were made in the evening, it would be consumed prior to the following sunrise. There are other possible explanations that would be speculation at this point. If you work hard enough, you can probably come up with numerous alternatives to the obvious. Some people have made careers of ridiculing and scoffing at Scripture in one way or another.

According to Leviticus 23, the tenth day began at sunset of the 9th day and ended at sunset on the tenth day. For example, the weekly Sabbath begins at sunset on the 6th day and ends with sunset of the 7th day, which is also the beginning of the 1st day.

 

According to Leviticus 23 the Day of Atonement was on the 10th day BUT the Israelites were instructed to start celebrating it on the evening of the 9th day. The fact is that Leviticus or Exodus does not instruct the weekly Sabbath to be observed like this. 

Deuteronomy 21,22
And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed by God; you shall not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance.

A Jew who murdered 3 people is caught and is hanged on a tree at 3:00 pm on the 6th day of the week. The man MUST be buried before Dawn because Dawn is when the 7th day starts.  Matthew 28,1

Numbers 11,31
And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and it brought quails from the sea, and let them fall beside the camp, about a day’s journey on this side and a day’s journey on the other side, round about the camp, and about two cubits above the face of the earth. And the people rose all that day, and all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quails; he who gathered least gathered ten homers; and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp.

Now, was "all night" part of "that 1st day" OR was it part of "THE NEXT DAY"?

As for the peace offerings if the day was understood by ancient Israel the way you say the person would have until sunset the following day. 

[GHansen]

Gustave, It's a mistake to interpret Deuteronomy 21:22 with Matthew 28:1. It's not even necessary. A person who was hung on a tree in the afternoon would be taken down and buried before night fall. That's what happened to Jesus. 

Mary coming to the tomb on Sunday morning is recorded in all four gospel records of the ESV:

Jn 20:1 ¶  Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. ESV

Lk 24:1 ¶  But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.

Mk 16:2  And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.

Mt 28:1 ¶  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

Most new versions translate the passages as above e.g., NKJV, NASB, WEB, LEX, RSV translate the passage in the above sense i.e., after the Sabbath, early in the morning, Mary went to the tomb.

I might also point out that the Jews were concerned about Christ hanging on the Sabbath day. They wanted his body removed before sundown because that's when the Sabbath began.

Here's an explanation of time reckoning from Edersheim's "The Temple" 

The week was divided into seven days, of which, however, only the seventh—the Sabbath—had a name assigned
to it, the rest being merely noted by numerals. The day was computed from sunset to sunset, or rather to the
appearance of the first three stars with which a new day commenced. Before the Babylonish captivity, it was divided
into morning, mid-day, evening, and night; but during the residence in Babylon, the Hebrews adopted the division
of the day into twelve hours, whose duration varied with the length of the day. The longest day consisted of
fourteen hours and twelve minutes; the shortest, of nine hours forty-eight minutes; the difference between the two
being thus more than four hours. On an average, the first hour of the day corresponded nearly to our 6 a.m.; the
third hour (when, according to Matthew 20:3, the market-place was full), to our 9 a.m.; the close of the sixth hour,
to our mid-day; while at the eleventh, the day neared its close. The Romans reckoned the hours from midnight, a
fact which explains the apparent discrepancy between John 19:14, where, at the sixth hour (of Roman calculation),
Pilate brings Jesus out to the Jews, while at the third hour of the Jewish, and hence the ninth of the Roman and of
our calculation (Mark 15:25), He was led forth to be crucified. The night was divided by the Romans into four, by
the Jews into three watches. The Jews subdivided the hour into 1,080 parts (chlakim), and again each part into seventy-six moments (pp. 65,66 online .pdf version).

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, It's a mistake to interpret Deuteronomy 21:22 with Matthew 28:1. It's not even necessary. A person who was hung on a tree in the afternoon would be taken down and buried before night fall. That's what happened to Jesus. 

Mary coming to the tomb on Sunday morning is recorded in all four gospel records of the ESV:

Jn 20:1 ¶  Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. ESV

Lk 24:1 ¶  But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices they had prepared.

Mk 16:2  And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb.

Mt 28:1 ¶  Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

Most new versions translate the passages as above e.g., NKJV, NASB, WEB, LEX, RSV translate the passage in the above sense i.e., after the Sabbath, early in the morning, Mary went to the tomb.

I might also point out that the Jews were concerned about Christ hanging on the Sabbath day. They wanted his body removed before sundown because that's when the Sabbath began.

Here's an explanation of time reckoning from Edersheim's "The Temple" 

The week was divided into seven days, of which, however, only the seventh—the Sabbath—had a name assigned
to it, the rest being merely noted by numerals. The day was computed from sunset to sunset, or rather to the
appearance of the first three stars with which a new day commenced. Before the Babylonish captivity, it was divided
into morning, mid-day, evening, and night; but during the residence in Babylon, the Hebrews adopted the division
of the day into twelve hours, whose duration varied with the length of the day. The longest day consisted of
fourteen hours and twelve minutes; the shortest, of nine hours forty-eight minutes; the difference between the two
being thus more than four hours. On an average, the first hour of the day corresponded nearly to our 6 a.m.; the
third hour (when, according to Matthew 20:3, the market-place was full), to our 9 a.m.; the close of the sixth hour,
to our mid-day; while at the eleventh, the day neared its close. The Romans reckoned the hours from midnight, a
fact which explains the apparent discrepancy between John 19:14, where, at the sixth hour (of Roman calculation),
Pilate brings Jesus out to the Jews, while at the third hour of the Jewish, and hence the ninth of the Roman and of
our calculation (Mark 15:25), He was led forth to be crucified. The night was divided by the Romans into four, by
the Jews into three watches. The Jews subdivided the hour into 1,080 parts (chlakim), and again each part into seventy-six moments (pp. 65,66 online .pdf version).

 

Deuteronomy 21,22: says nothing about "before night fall", you are getting this from Jewish (Talmudic) Tradition. 

Does Genesis 19 indicate "all night" to be prior to night fall? 

Genesis 19:  And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;  And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

It means, according to common sense and Strong's all night until the next morning. Exactly as does Genesis 24, 54, Genesis 28, 11, Genesis 31, 54, Leviticus 6, 9, & 19, 13, Deuteronomy 16,2, in fact you can pull up all the Scriptures that use the term and in each case the meaning is the same - excepting your novel interpretation of Deuteronomy  21, 22 which you claim means "before nightfall". 

In an area with hills or mountains it can be dawn and yet still be dark depending if the sun has crested the mountain or hill. Matthew 28 states that long after sunset on the 6th day of the week it was still "in the Sabbath", it just wasn't the Sabbath "DAY". 

And the 4th watch, according to Jewish reckoning,  would have still been dark, & still part of the Sabbath according to Matthew. Speaking of that. 

Matthew 27, 57:  When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:  He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.  And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth

 I've looked at some walk-through's about the timing of the events surrounding Jesus' death and burial and it seems very reasonable that Jesus' body was laid to rest after sunset especially given that usually it took days for someone to die by that method of execution. Pilot was in disbelief Jesus was already dead - actually sent orders for the Military Officer in charge to personally come to him and confirm Jesus' death. 

I became convicted several years ago that Roland De Vaux, and Ismar Schorsch were right that Ancient Israel reckoned the day as starting at sunrise and it wasn't until later - long after the Exodus and around the Babylon Exile that Judaism adopted a change in the how the day was reckoned. 

 

[GHansen]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

Deuteronomy 21,22: says nothing about "before night fall", you are getting this from Jewish (Talmudic) Tradition. 

Does Genesis 19 indicate "all night" to be prior to night fall? 

Genesis 19:  And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;  And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

It means, according to common sense and Strong's all night until the next morning. Exactly as does Genesis 24, 54, Genesis 28, 11, Genesis 31, 54, Leviticus 6, 9, & 19, 13, Deuteronomy 16,2, in fact you can pull up all the Scriptures that use the term and in each case the meaning is the same - excepting your novel interpretation of Deuteronomy  21, 22 which you claim means "before nightfall". 

In an area with hills or mountains it can be dawn and yet still be dark depending if the sun has crested the mountain or hill. Matthew 28 states that long after sunset on the 6th day of the week it was still "in the Sabbath", it just wasn't the Sabbath "DAY". 

And the 4th watch, according to Jewish reckoning,  would have still been dark, & still part of the Sabbath according to Matthew. Speaking of that. 

Matthew 27, 57:  When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:  He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.  And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth

 I've looked at some walk-through's about the timing of the events surrounding Jesus' death and burial and it seems very reasonable that Jesus' body was laid to rest after sunset especially given that usually it took days for someone to die by that method of execution. Pilot was in disbelief Jesus was already dead - actually sent orders for the Military Officer in charge to personally come to him and confirm Jesus' death. 

I became convicted several years ago that Roland De Vaux, and Ismar Schorsch were right that Ancient Israel reckoned the day as starting at sunrise and it wasn't until later - long after the Exodus and around the Babylon Exile that Judaism adopted a change in the how the day was reckoned. 

 

Gustave, My understanding of Deuteronomy 21:22 isn't novel. It's demanded by the text itself. I use the word "nightfall"  because the text says he must be buried the same day he was hanged.  If days were calculated from sunset to sunset and the victim had to be taken down the same day he was hanged, he would have to be taken down before nightfall. The passage in Leviticus 23  states that the reckoning of a day was from sunset to sunset. I accept what the Bible reveals. What passage do you have which contradicts Leviticus 23 vis-a-vis, the reckoning from sunset to sunset?John 19:31 says that the the body of Jesus was removed from the cross on the preparation day because bodies could not remain hanging on the Sabbath. Luke 23:54 says that the body of Jesus was wrapped and placed in the tomb on the preparation, as the Sabbath drew on. This was all taking place on Friday evening, before sunset. 

[stinsonmarri]

21 hours ago, Gustave said:

Do you agree that Moses and the Children of Israel reckoned the evening ushered in the following day so that Monday evening after the sun went down meant that it was actually Tuesday. 

I agree that at the time of Creation that was meant.

 And ELOHIYM called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:5

This is very clear that evening comes before the day. So, when the sunset, it is evening and that start the Sabbath and ends when the sunset and then it starts Sunday. Bible shows that the evening was the beginning of the 24 hour period.

 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of IsraEL shall kill it between the evenings. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.  And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.Exo 12:6, 8, 10 

Now before [the feast (These two word were put in italic and not  in the original Script)]  the disciples came to   YAHSHUA, saying unto HIM, Where wilt thou that we prepare for THEE to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Yahshua had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, HE sat down with the twelve. Mat 26:17-20

And before the day of Unleavened Bread, when they were wont to kill the passover, his disciples said unto HIM, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And in the evening HE cometh with the twelve. Mark 14:12, 17 

The first day of the week cometh Miriam Magdalena early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1

So, to be frank all nations of the Bible knew and accepted until the Roman change time.

Blessings!

[Gustave]

15 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, My understanding of Deuteronomy 21:22 isn't novel. It's demanded by the text itself. I use the word "nightfall"  because the text says he must be buried the same day he was hanged.  If days were calculated from sunset to sunset and the victim had to be taken down the same day he was hanged, he would have to be taken down before nightfall. The passage in Leviticus 23  states that the reckoning of a day was from sunset to sunset. I accept what the Bible reveals. What passage do you have which contradicts Leviticus 23 vis-a-vis, the reckoning from sunset to sunset?John 19:31 says that the the body of Jesus was removed from the cross on the preparation day because bodies could not remain hanging on the Sabbath. Luke 23:54 says that the body of Jesus was wrapped and placed in the tomb on the preparation, as the Sabbath drew on. This was all taking place on Friday evening, before sunset. 

"IF" being the operative word. 

"In Israel, the day was for a long time reckoned from morning to morning...and it was in fact in the morning, with the creation of light, that the world began; the distinction of day and night, and time too, began on a morning...... (Gen. 1:3-5, cf. 14:16, 18). Ancient Israel page 181

You're using "Day" in the sense of daylight hours only - as in when Jesus said that there is 12 hours in a "day". I suppose one could interpret it this way but wouldn't it cause problems with the general understanding of groups that follow the Rabbinical tradition of keeping the feast of the Sabbath (by starting it early (on the evening of the 6th day)?

The Commandment speaks of the "Day",  not of the "Night". 

More interesting to me is what do you believe Luther got wrong in the distinctions he made between the natural & more laws? 

 

[GHansen]

I really don't have an opinion on Luther's distinctions between natural and moral law. Jesus came to set us free from bondage to laws. That's what interests me.

[Gustave]

16 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I agree that at the time of Creation that was meant.

 And ELOHIYM called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:5

This is very clear that evening comes before the day. So, when the sunset, it is evening and that start the Sabbath and ends when the sunset and then it starts Sunday. Bible shows that the evening was the beginning of the 24 hour period.

 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of IsraEL shall kill it between the evenings. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.  And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.Exo 12:6, 8, 10 

Now before [the feast (These two word were put in italic and not  in the original Script)]  the disciples came to   YAHSHUA, saying unto HIM, Where wilt thou that we prepare for THEE to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Yahshua had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, HE sat down with the twelve. Mat 26:17-20

And before the day of Unleavened Bread, when they were wont to kill the passover, his disciples said unto HIM, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? And in the evening HE cometh with the twelve. Mark 14:12, 17 

The first day of the week cometh Miriam Magdalena early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. John 20:1

So, to be frank all nations of the Bible knew and accepted until the Roman change time.

Blessings!

 

That's a Hebrew Idiom. 

The text literally reads that dawn of the following day closed out the prior day. 

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Notice that there is the act of creation, God names the elements of His creation and immediately after the act of creation evening follows and than morning AND THEN IT SAYS - "and the evening and the morning WERE the first day". 

For the sake of protecting "Talmudic" tradition you are placing the evening (which didn't exist) and morning PRIOR to the act of creation when Scripture clearly says it was AFTER. 

"Second, the talmudic innovation of reckoning a day from the eve before suggests a larger view of life. While we may never know what prompted the Rabbis to reconfigure the day, the existential benefit is indisputable. By inaugurating the celebration of Shabbat or a festival at sunset, they have framed a stretch of time that can be ritually filled to heighten the religious experience. At the other end of the day, an eventide that does not mark a boundary between sacred and profane time would tend to be anti-climactic, an appendage of time to be endured till sunrise catches us unawares. To celebrate from sunset to sunset is to experience the passage of time each day consciously and bravely."

 

 

[Gustave]

5 minutes ago, GHansen said:

I really don't have an opinion on Luther's distinctions between natural and moral law. Jesus came to set us free from bondage to laws. That's what interests me.

Well, to a greater or lessor degree I can agree fully with that! 

[GHansen]

Gustave, As a matter of interpretation, there is a plain statement in Leviticus 23 that the Day of Atonement was to be reckoned from sunset to sunset. Unless you have a text that indicates the days were reckoned in some other way, I'm obliged to accept that.  Do you believe that it was only the DoA that was observed from evening to evening?

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, As a matter of interpretation, there is a plain statement in Leviticus 23 that the Day of Atonement was to be reckoned from sunset to sunset. Unless you have a text that indicates the days were reckoned in some other way, I'm obliged to accept that.  Do you believe that it was only the DoA that was observed from evening to evening?

No, there were a couple of other Feasts who's observance was to be started the evening prior to the actual day - but NOT ALL the Feasts. What Feast are you referring to where observance was to start on the day prior to the Feast were there WASN'T instructions to do so? 

 

[stinsonmarri]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

That's a Hebrew Idiom. 

The text literally reads that dawn of the following day closed out the prior day. 

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day."

Notice that there is the act of creation, God names the elements of His creation and immediately after the act of creation evening follows and than morning AND THEN IT SAYS - "and the evening and the morning WERE the first day". 

For the sake of protecting "Talmudic" tradition you are placing the evening (which didn't exist) and morning PRIOR to the act of creation when Scripture clearly says it was AFTER. 

"Second, the talmudic innovation of reckoning a day from the eve before suggests a larger view of life. While we may never know what prompted the Rabbis to reconfigure the day, the existential benefit is indisputable. By inaugurating the celebration of Shabbat or a festival at sunset, they have framed a stretch of time that can be ritually filled to heighten the religious experience. At the other end of the day, an eventide that does not mark a boundary between sacred and profane time would tend to be anti-climactic, an appendage of time to be endured till sunrise catches us unawares. To celebrate from sunset to sunset is to experience the passage of time each day consciously and bravely."

 

 

So, it is you that have your own strange idiom because that is not what the language states, which you don't show at all!

'ôr light of heavenly luminaries (moon, sun, stars)

yôm   day (as opposed to night)

chôshek darkness, obscurity

layil / lêyl / layelâh -night

bôqer- break of day, of end of night: Browns-Drivers-Briggs

‛ereb- dusk

bôqer- dawn Strong Hebrew Dictionary.com

Dawn (N English) 1590s, "first appearance of daylight in the morning," from dawn (v.). Middle English words for "first appearance of light in the morning" were day-gleam (late 14c.), dayspring (c. 1300), and dawning. Dawn (n.) in the figurative sense of "first opening or expansion of anything" is from 1630s. Etymology Online Dictionary

It originates from the 2nd century CE. The word Talmud is derived from the Hebrew verb 'to teach', which can also be expressed as the verb 'to learn'. The Talmud is the source from which the code of Jewish Halakha (law) is derived. It is made up of the Mishnah and the Gemara. Religions - Judaism: The Talmud - BBC

Dead Sea Scroll showed that many of the pieces of the Paleo Hebrew Script was much older than the 2nd century. If you care to read history you will find that after the exile of Babylon that the Pharisee false belief begin it oppose everything that was true. It is these leaders that eventually wrote the Talmud. 

The reason why I use Paleo Hebrews because Moses did not write in Hebrew. The Egyptians hieroglyphics was more of what we call a picture script. It was the Phoenicians that started the symbol scripts we call letters. Common sense will tell people that Moses grew up in Egypt. Then he lived with Jethro a Median who is mixed and a grandson of Abraham. Abraham came to the Amorites a Canaanite tribe. These people did not speak a Semitic language. That was taught by European's. Why? To cover up the truth and intellect of people of color. Now, that we know and have discovered writings that predate Abraham, here comes this Critical theory race junk. I do not believe in theories, I believe historical proven facts. THEY DON'T LIE! What's ever in the dark will come out in the light. Because the Europeans couldn't find how to dismiss the truth it hit them in the face. The Chinese and Asians come from Canaan, but they write hieroglyphics or picture grams like the Egyptians. So they had to put them together and call it Afroasiatic and then put Hebrew under it calling it is those Afrikans who spoke a subname Semitic. Yet, Elam is Semitic and cannot be deciphered so they call it part of Persia. This totally false Persia lived in the upper steps of the Caucasus Mountains. They are Aryans and these tribes were known to be an aggressive people, who also moved into India. The Persian took over the kingdom of Elam. Here is a newsflash a lot of Kushites were king in Elam and they spoke a Semitic language. This is in historical books but not taught, I wonder why?

So, now it is coming more to light that Abraham spoke a Canaanite language and Europeans need to accept the truth! These people knew YAHWEH and Abraham was sent their to learn the truth. Moses was sent to the Midianites, one of Keturah's son, a Canaanite woman. These people lived close to Egypt and that's why Moses was able to meet up with his brother. They also knew and worship YAHWEH! This also shows that Hebrews were not slaves another big lie. The Egyptian never moved them from Goshen and they were giving them straw to make the bricks. They were servants and yes the Egyptians did them wrong. But they could move around Black slaves couldn't and they were not chattel Afrikan's were!

History upholds the truth of the Bible!

Blessings!

[Gustave]

 

Does the Bible say that the evening and morning followed God creating light or not Stinsonmarri?  This is a yes or no question. 

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

No, there were a couple of other Feasts who's observance was to be started the evening prior to the actual day - but NOT ALL the Feasts. What Feast are you referring to where observance was to start on the day prior to the Feast were there WASN'T instructions to do so? 

 

There is a plain statement in Leviticus 23 about the timing of the DoA. Could you cite an example of any other feast which would not commence at sunset and end at a following sunset? Regarding the Passover in verse 5, it was to begin "at even" on the 14th day. Verse 6 then says that the feast of unleavened bread was to begin on the 15th day. It doesn't say at what time it begins; therefore, I assume that it would also begin at even, the following day e.g., Passover begins at sundown on Friday/Sabbath and ends at sundown on Sabbath/ Sunday. The feast of unleavened bread then begins. Exodus 12:15-18 explains that the feast of unleavened bread was for 7 days, beginning at "even" and ending at "even." The Passover and the feast of unleavened bread and the Day of Atonement are all from even to even. Which feast is not from even to even? 

[Gustave]

20 minutes ago, GHansen said:

There is a plain statement in Leviticus 23 about the timing of the DoA. Could you cite an example of any other feast which would not commence at sunset and end at a following sunset? Regarding the Passover in verse 5, it was to begin "at even" on the 14th day. Verse 6 then says that the feast of unleavened bread was to begin on the 15th day. It doesn't say at what time it begins; therefore, I assume that it would also begin at even, the following day e.g., Passover begins at sundown on Friday/Sabbath and ends at sundown on Sabbath/ Sunday. The feast of unleavened bread then begins. Exodus 12:15-18 explains that the feast of unleavened bread was for 7 days, beginning at "even" and ending at "even." The Passover and the feast of unleavened bread and the Day of Atonement are all from even to even. Which feast is not from even to even? 

 

Yes, but that Feast was already explained in Scripture as requiring abstaining from leavened bread starting on the evening of the 14th day.. Are you saying that there are no feasts that God required the Israelites to observe that didn't include the start of observance on the evening prior to the day of the Feast? 

Exodus 12, 18: In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.

 

In both cases the actual feast starts is stated to be on a day other than the day the preparation of the feast comes on. Is that it? 

Are there no Feasts that you can name that start on the evening prior without specific instructions from God to do so?