Soul Sleep before Adventism

[GHansen]

37 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I am fine with that because that position supports my basic position.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying. Because you know Lutherans who agree that what Luther said is "all over the map," you feel vindicated. Is that correct? My view of Luther's antisemitism is that he was not opposed to Jews as individuals but to the system of Judaism which made war on the gospel and to those Jews in particular who did. He was a great friend to them until they betrayed that friendship. He then turned against them. Thats neither antiSemitic nor all over the map. It seems quite sensible.

Perhaps you can explain to me just what it is that SDA clergy have against Luther. I wouldn't say that all SDA clergy oppose Luther but some do, both of ordinary stature and influence. Yourself, for example. An SDA clergyman, engaged in noble work, yet you dismiss Luther as an antiSemite. Could you tell me why that is? 

[Gregory Matthews]

I consider Martin Luther to be a great person, used by God in many ways. 

I also consider him to be a flawed person, as am I.

In the record of God's interactions with people on Earth, I find God regularly using flawed people.

That use of flawed people causes me to love God even more and increases my faith in the activities of God in my life.

[stinsonmarri]

Remember Pastor Matthew all of us are flawed. But, THE HOLY SPIRIT can come in and change us if we choose to be change. We do not have to continue to be flaw. That's what happen to Martin Luther he did continue understand and obey YAHWEH'S WORD! He realized that just shall live by faith and faith comes by changing and not sining. We can do this through THE POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT! There are things I use to do that were against YAHWEH and my neighbor. I do not do them anymore. My eating habits have changed. So, I know if I keep exercising my faith, I will change all my flaws.

Blessing please pray for me, as I pray for everyone on this forum!

 

[Gustave]

Its true is it not that at one point Luther said he wasn't sure if he could defend the Immortality of the soul, HOWEVER, after he spent time studying the subject decidedly affirmed it. 

In my view when Christ answered the Sadducees on a question they didn't even ask that settles it for me.  

[GHansen]

On 9/14/2021 at 8:39 AM, Gustave said:

Its true is it not that at one point Luther said he wasn't sure if he could defend the Immortality of the soul, HOWEVER, after he spent time studying the subject decidedly affirmed it.

Gustave, Would you take the time to give references to support the remark that Luther decidedly affirmed the immortality of the soul? He wrote extensively on man's state in death in his comments on Genesis 25:7-10 [~1535/1536]. He dismissed as "silly" contemporary views of RC on man's state in death. In a letter to Nicolas Amsdorf [1522] he clearly sets forth his views on man's state in death. In both cases, he is not dogmatic, stating that there are things about death that we just don't know. 

Luther held that Abraham's bosom is a position that exists in the mind of the believer based on his faith in Christ. It is not a quantifiable place in another dimension of time and space. It's a state of awareness in the mind of the believer, that the person has been accepted by God in Christ.

It's not easy to explain Luther's position exactly, as articulated in the works mentioned; however, it would be safe to say that Luther's understanding of man's state in death did not correspond to what is nowadays understood by the expression "man's soul is immortal." If you have primary references that clarify what you mean, I'd like to see them.

[Gustave]

44 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, Would you take the time to give references to support the remark that Luther decidedly affirmed the immortality of the soul? He wrote extensively on man's state in death in his comments on Genesis 25:7-10 [~1535/1536]. He dismissed as "silly" contemporary views of RC on man's state in death. In a letter to Nicolas Amsdorf [1522] he clearly sets forth his views on man's state in death. In both cases, he is not dogmatic, stating that there are things about death that we just don't know. 

Luther held that Abraham's bosom is a position that exists in the mind of the believer based on his faith in Christ. It is not a quantifiable place in another dimension of time and space. It's a state of awareness in the mind of the believer, that the person has been accepted by God in Christ.

It's not easy to explain Luther's position exactly, as articulated in the works mentioned; however, it would be safe to say that Luther's understanding of man's state in death did not correspond to what is nowadays understood by the expression "man's soul is immortal." If you have primary references that clarify what you mean, I'd like to see them.

 

"In the interim the soul does NOT sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, AND has converse with them." Luther's Works Volume XXV page 321

 

"The fourth question is: Should we pray for the dead? Here in this Gospel reading no middle state is pointed out between the bosom of Abraham and hell; those in Abraham’s bosom do not need that prayer, and it does not benefit those in hell. We have no command from God to pray for the dead; therefore, no one can sin if they do not pray for them. No one can sin in what God has not commanded or forbidden. Yet, on the other hand, since God has not let us know what the condition of the souls is, and we must be uncertain about what is happening with them, we would not and could not prevent them nor make it a sin to pray for them. We know for certain from the Gospels [Mark 5:42; Luke 7:15; 8:55; John 11:44; Matt. 27:52] that many dead people have been raised, and we must confess that they had not yet received their final verdict. Thus we also cannot be certain that any other person has received his final verdict. Now, since this is uncertain, and we do not know whether the soul has been sentenced, it is not a sin to pray for them. However, you should pray in such a way that you let it remain uncertain and say, “Dear God, if the soul is still in the state that it can be helped, then I pray that You would be gracious to it.” When you have done that once or twice, then cease and commend the soul to God. God has promised that He will hear what we pray. Therefore, when you have prayed once or three times, you should believe that He has granted your prayer and never again pray it, so that you do not tempt or mistrust God." Luther's 1522 Sermon 

Sounds like the opposite of soul sleep to me.

[GHansen]

8 hours ago, Gustave said:

Sounds like the opposite of soul sleep to me.

Obviously you have not read Luther's comments on Genesis 25. He uses the word "sleep" several times to describe the condition of the soul in death, noting that the sleep of the soul in death is different than the sleep of a person in this life.

Even the quote you provide expresses Luther's uncertainty about man's condition in death:  "no one can sin if they do not pray for them. No one can sin in what God has not commanded or forbidden. Yet, on the other hand, since God has not let us know what the condition of the souls is, and we must be uncertain about what is happening with them, we would not and could not prevent them nor make it a sin to pray for them."

"Thus we also cannot be certain that any other person has received his final verdict. Now, since this is uncertain, and we do not know whether the soul has been sentenced, it is not a sin to pray for them. However, you should pray in such a way that you let it remain uncertain and say, “Dear God, if the soul is still in the state that it can be helped, then I pray that You would be gracious to it.” When you have done that once or twice, then cease and commend the soul to God."

Luther says God does not let us know the condition of the souls is [in death]. "Uncertain," "we do not know" is how he describes our knowledge regarding the state of man in death.

A 1522 sermon? Any idea how many sermons Luther preached in 1522?  I've got 8 volumes of his sermons so I'd like something a bit more specific. Volume 25 of Luther's Works contains his Romans commentary. There is no such quotation like the one you cited on page 321 or the few pages around it. Perhaps I overlooked it? Those pages contain commentary on Romans 6 and 7. His comments on Genesis 25: 7-10 contain, not a passing reference, but a full discussion on man's condition in death. He denounces as "silly" and "foolish" RC views of that era and refers to the sleep of the soul in death numerous times. He does appear to understand it differently than SDA do nowadays, however.

 

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, GHansen said:

Obviously you have not read Luther's comments on Genesis 25. He uses the word "sleep" several times to describe the condition of the soul in death, noting that the sleep of the soul in death is different than the sleep of a person in this life.

Even the quote you provide expresses Luther's uncertainty about man's condition in death:  "no one can sin if they do not pray for them. No one can sin in what God has not commanded or forbidden. Yet, on the other hand, since God has not let us know what the condition of the souls is, and we must be uncertain about what is happening with them, we would not and could not prevent them nor make it a sin to pray for them."

"Thus we also cannot be certain that any other person has received his final verdict. Now, since this is uncertain, and we do not know whether the soul has been sentenced, it is not a sin to pray for them. However, you should pray in such a way that you let it remain uncertain and say, “Dear God, if the soul is still in the state that it can be helped, then I pray that You would be gracious to it.” When you have done that once or twice, then cease and commend the soul to God."

Luther says God does not let us know the condition of the souls is [in death]. "Uncertain," "we do not know" is how he describes our knowledge regarding the state of man in death.

A 1522 sermon? Any idea how many sermons Luther preached in 1522?  I've got 8 volumes of his sermons so I'd like something a bit more specific. Volume 25 of Luther's Works contains his Romans commentary. There is no such quotation like the one you cited on page 321 or the few pages around it. Perhaps I overlooked it? Those pages contain commentary on Romans 6 and 7. His comments on Genesis 25: 7-10 contain, not a passing reference, but a full discussion on man's condition in death. He denounces as "silly" and "foolish" RC views of that era and refers to the sleep of the soul in death numerous times. He does appear to understand it differently than SDA do nowadays, however.

 

 

If you have Luther's commentary on Genesis can you confirm the following exists? 

“But now another question arises. Since it is certain that the souls are living and are in peace, what kind of life or rest is this? But this question is too lofty and too difficult for us to be able to define it. For God did not want us to know this in this life. Thus it is enough for us to know that souls do not go out of their bodies into the danger of tortures and punishments of hell, but that there is ready for them a chamber in which they may sleep in peace.

Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God. With this analogy, which I have from the sleep of a living person, I am satisfied; for in him there is peace and quiet. He thinks that he has slept barely one or two hours, and yet he sees that the soul sleeps in such a manner that it also is awake.”[LW 4:313].

If you experience discourse you are aware or hearing conversation. Luther appears to be saying here that the soul of man "LIVES BEFORE GOD". Luther is absolutely speaking of the soul after the death of the body here. 

As for the quote you asked for more information on I'm told it comes from Luther's Works Volume 25. I found it referenced in a book I'd bought about 25 years ago. I can see the same quote listed multiple times on various websites and from what I've seen thus far in Luther's own words he had a radically different understanding of soul sleep than SDA's do. 

I wonder if I should reach out to the Lutheran Seminary again, they were pretty cool about my prior questions. 

 

[GHansen]

The quote from Volume 4, page 313 is accurate; however, the entire pericope should be read to get the sense of what he is saying. He definitely believed in soul sleep. The quote you offer says "they enter a chamber where they may sleep in peace." It is a different type of sleep than what we experience in this world. It is just wrong to say Luther didn't believe in soul sleep. He did but his understanding of "sleep" was different than most of our contemporaries. If you want to understand his position, get his Genesis Commentary and read the comments in chapter 25. One portion of a much longer piece doesn't do justice to his view.

The quote from volume 25 p. 321(?) is in the midst of his comments on Romans 6 & 7. The quote is not  there, regardless of how many websites say it is. Page 321 looks to be the beginning of comments on chapter 7 of Romans.

Following is part of  Luther's response to Amsdorf's question about the location of departed souls. This is from volume 48, pp360-363:

"Concerning your “souls,” I have not enough [insight into the problem] to answer you.2 I am inclined to agree with your opinion that the souls of the just are asleep and that they do not know where they are up to the Day of Judgment. I am drawn to this opinion by the word of Scripture, “They sleep with their fathers.”3 The dead who were raised by Christ and by the apostles testify to this fact,4 since they were as if they had just awakened from sleep and didn’t know where they had been. To this must be added the ecstatic experiences of many saints. I have nothing with which I could overthrow this opinion. But I do not dare to affirm that this5 is true for all souls in general, because of the ecstasy of Paul,6 and the ascension of Elijah7 and of Moses8 (who certainly did not appear as phantoms on Mount Tabor).9 Who knows how God deals with the departed souls? Can’t [God] just as well make them sleep on and off (or for as long as he wishes [them to sleep]), just as he overcomes with sleep those who live in the flesh? And again, that passage in Luke 16 [:23 ff.] concerning Abraham and Lazarus, although it does not force the assumption of a universal [capacity of feeling on the part of the departed],yet it attributes a capacity of feeling to Abraham and Lazarus, and it is hard to twist this passage to refer to the Day of Judgment."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 48: Letters I. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 48, pp. 360–361). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

There are Lutheran websites that specialize in answering questions about the Lutheran faith. I asked a question about Melanchthon and got a rapid answer.

[GHansen]

It may be easier to describe what Luther  didn't believe on the topic of death than to describe what he did believe:

"On purgatory I have this opinion:15 I do not think, as the sophists16 dream, that it is a certain place, nor do I think that all who remain outside heaven or hell are in purgatory. (Who could assert this, since [the departed souls] could sleep suspended between heaven, earth, hell, purgatory, and all else, just as could happen with the living, when they are in a deep sleep?) I think purgatory is that punishment17 which they call a foretaste of hell and under which Christ, Moses, Abraham, David, Jacob, Job, Hezekiah, and many others suffered. This punishment is similar to hell, yet restricted in terms of time; it is purgatory for me regardless of whether this punishment takes place emotionally18 or physically,19 since we attribute such punishment to purgatory. Yet while it is declared that this punishment takes place physically, and that this is certain, it also cannot be denied that [this punishment] takes place emotionally, although this cannot be proven. Consequently you are by no means in error, whatever you may believe here. Even if you deny purgatory, you are no heretic, since you do not deny that the punishment [of purgatory] can be felt physically and emotionally, but you deny only that purgatory is a definite place and that it has been proven that such punishment is felt emotionally.20 This I deny too. For they who feel that punishment physically are actually no longer in the body, but dead, as far as life itself [and the senses] are concerned. And so it is not possible for you to deny that this punishment can be felt this way, that is emotionally.21 This is how I see it. If you have something else to say, let me know."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 48: Letters I. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 48, pp. 362–363). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

"But here one must also censure the foolishness of the papists, who have devised five places after death: (1) the hell of the damned; (2) the hell of infants who were not baptized; (3) purgatory; (4) the limbo of the fathers (in the New Testament they added Paradise on account of Christ’s statement in Luke 23:43: “Today you will be with Me in Paradise”); and (5) the open heaven.18

They say that the first place, which is torment by eternal fire, is for the damned. But whether the souls of the ungodly are tortured immediately after death I am unable to affirm, although the example of the rich glutton applies here. But there is a passage to the opposite effect in 2 Peter 2:4. It deals with the wicked angels who are being kept until the judgment. And in 2 Cor. 5:10 Paul says: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.” It seems that they, too, are sleeping and resting; but I am making no positive statement.

The second place is that of infants who were not baptized. They maintain that while those infants are damned, they are not suffering punishment by fire or by worms but are merely without the vision of God. They do not have the light which would enable them to see God and the angels. Nevertheless, they are not tormented.

The third sphere is that of purgatory, into which neither the damned nor infants enter; it is for those who, while they believe, yet have not rendered satisfaction for their sins. The souls of these are ransomed by means of indulgences. From this source comes the hogwash of indulgences and the entire papistic religion.

The fourth place is the limbo of the fathers. They say that Christ descended to this place, broke it open, and set free—not from hell but from the limbo—the fathers who were troubled by the longing and waiting for Christ but were not enduring punishment or torments."

He described the above as "silly ideas."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 4: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 21-25. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 4, pp. 314–315). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

[Gustave]

10 hours ago, GHansen said:

The quote from Volume 4, page 313 is accurate; however, the entire pericope should be read to get the sense of what he is saying. He definitely believed in soul sleep. The quote you offer says "they enter a chamber where they may sleep in peace." It is a different type of sleep than what we experience in this world. It is just wrong to say Luther didn't believe in soul sleep. He did but his understanding of "sleep" was different than most of our contemporaries. If you want to understand his position, get his Genesis Commentary and read the comments in chapter 25. One portion of a much longer piece doesn't do justice to his view.

The quote from volume 25 p. 321(?) is in the midst of his comments on Romans 6 & 7. The quote is not  there, regardless of how many websites say it is. Page 321 looks to be the beginning of comments on chapter 7 of Romans.

Following is part of  Luther's response to Amsdorf's question about the location of departed souls. This is from volume 48, pp360-363:

"Concerning your “souls,” I have not enough [insight into the problem] to answer you.2 I am inclined to agree with your opinion that the souls of the just are asleep and that they do not know where they are up to the Day of Judgment. I am drawn to this opinion by the word of Scripture, “They sleep with their fathers.”3 The dead who were raised by Christ and by the apostles testify to this fact,4 since they were as if they had just awakened from sleep and didn’t know where they had been. To this must be added the ecstatic experiences of many saints. I have nothing with which I could overthrow this opinion. But I do not dare to affirm that this5 is true for all souls in general, because of the ecstasy of Paul,6 and the ascension of Elijah7 and of Moses8 (who certainly did not appear as phantoms on Mount Tabor).9 Who knows how God deals with the departed souls? Can’t [God] just as well make them sleep on and off (or for as long as he wishes [them to sleep]), just as he overcomes with sleep those who live in the flesh? And again, that passage in Luke 16 [:23 ff.] concerning Abraham and Lazarus, although it does not force the assumption of a universal [capacity of feeling on the part of the departed],yet it attributes a capacity of feeling to Abraham and Lazarus, and it is hard to twist this passage to refer to the Day of Judgment."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 48: Letters I. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 48, pp. 360–361). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

There are Lutheran websites that specialize in answering questions about the Lutheran faith. I asked a question about Melanchthon and got a rapid answer.

 

The difference being that Luther version of soul sleep has the individuals soul conversing with God and the angels? That's the difference I'm seeing so far. 

About every authoritative Lutheran site I've found said that Luther initially supported a version of soul sleep but after further study rejected it as soundly as he did Sabbatarianism. 

I'm assuming, with your knowledge of Luther you are also familiar with Hugh Kerr's book "A Compend of Luther's Theology". Perhaps you have this book?  If so can you confirm page 421 has the following?

" It is true that souls hear, perceive, and see after death; but how it is done, we do not understand… If we undertake to give an account of such things after the manner of this life, then we are fools. Christ has given a good answer; for his disciples were without doubt just as curious. ‘He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,’ (John xi.25); likewise: ‘Whether we live, or whether we die, we are the Lord’s,’ (Rom. Xiv.8)… 

I'm pretty sure that the above affirmation by Luther (if it really exists) isn't compatible with the SDA understanding of soul sleep. I'm going to take the easy route here since I'm hardly a Luther expert - I'll email the two Lutheran seminaries again and ask them for a specific location for that one quote you're asking for and if Luther, after studying the subject supported and advocated soul sleep like Adventist groups. I bet I'll get an answer pretty fast.  

 

[GHansen]

"The difference being that Luther version of soul sleep has the individuals soul conversing with God and the angels? That's the difference I'm seeing so far." 

 

I'm just using the two references, comments on Genesis 25 and the Amsdorf letter. I'm not at all suggesting that Luther held views like those of contemporary SDA. He definitely believed in soul sleep but defined it in his own way. I don't read much in the way of secondary sources. As I said before, isolated quotes, apart from larger contexts don't accomplish much.  All I'm saying here is that Luther rejected typical RC views of the intermediate state in his day. Really not relevant to contemporary Adventism. In the larger context of the Genesis comments and Amsdorf letter, Luther is admittedly uncertain about various points he makes. At times, he seems to be arguing with himself or thinking aloud.

 

 

[GHansen]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:16 PM, Gustave said:

"In the interim the soul does NOT sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, AND has converse with them." Luther's Works Volume XXV page 321

You seem to cling to this quotation. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, it's rubbish. There is no such quote in volume 25, page 321 of LW.

[Gustave]

17 hours ago, GHansen said:

You seem to cling to this quotation. As far as I'm concerned, at this point, it's rubbish. There is no such quote in volume 25, page 321 of LW.

Just shot the email off asking for confirmation the statement Walter Martin and Robert Morey used in their books was rubbish and in fact no where to be found in Luther's writings. Something tells me this will end up like the Sabbath question ended up - with actual Lutherans who study Luther as a job saying your overreading Luther. If they say Luther never made such a statement and in fact it's "rubbish" that would surprise me but I'll accept it and report the finding in this thread. 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is much information available on the Internet as to the position of Martin Luther on what happens to a person at death. A review of this mass of material will likely lead one to conclude that Luther was not always consistent in his stated belief and also that when he did express belief in the sleep of the soul, his view differed in some ways of the SDA position.

I suggest that the following article will be of interest.  However, if you read it, read the entire article.

 

A Re-examination of Luther's View on the State of the Dead (andrews.edu):

 

 

[GHansen]

If the Lutheran scholars said I "overread" Luther regarding his belief that Abraham kept the Sabbath either you asked them the wrong questions or THEY don't know what they are talking about. It's written very plainly in his Genesis commentary what he believed. Any high school kid could ascertain that. The issue is not whether Luther ever made such a statement about converse with angels by the dead The issue is that if he did, you don't know where it is found. Without proper documentation, it is rubbish. That's the problem. It can't be verified from the reference you provided. If you develop  your views from second hand and tertiary sources, you've got more serious problems than lack of sources.

You should have asked this question: "Is this quote found on page 321 of volume 25 of Luther's Works" --

"In the interim the soul does NOT sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, AND has converse with them." Luther's Works Volume XXV page 321".

I'd like to see the email you sent to them regarding both the Sabbath and this issue. 

My guess is that you are referring to this quotation from LW volume 4, page 313. These are comments on Genesis 25:

 

"Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God. With this analogy, which I have from the sleep of a living person, I am satisfied; for in him there is peace and quiet. He thinks that he has slept barely one or two hours, and yet he sees that the soul sleeps in such a manner that it also is awake."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 4: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 21-25. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 4, p. 313). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, GHansen said:

If the Lutheran scholars said I "overread" Luther regarding his belief that Abraham kept the Sabbath either you asked them the wrong questions or THEY don't know what they are talking about. It's written very plainly in his Genesis commentary what he believed. Any high school kid could ascertain that. The issue is not whether Luther ever made such a statement about converse with angels by the dead The issue is that if he did, you don't know where it is found. Without proper documentation, it is rubbish. That's the problem. It can't be verified from the reference you provided. If you develop  your views from second hand and tertiary sources, you've got more serious problems than lack of sources.

You should have asked this question: "Is this quote found on page 321 of volume 25 of Luther's Works" --

"In the interim the soul does NOT sleep but is awake and enjoys the vision of angels and of God, AND has converse with them." Luther's Works Volume XXV page 321".

I'd like to see the email you sent to them regarding both the Sabbath and this issue. 

My guess is that you are referring to this quotation from LW volume 4, page 313. These are comments on Genesis 25:

 

"Nevertheless, there is a difference between the sleep or rest of this life and that of the future life. For toward night a person who has become exhausted by his daily labor in this life enters into his chamber in peace, as it were, to sleep there; and during this night he enjoys rest and has no knowledge whatever of any evil caused either by fire or by murder. But the soul does not sleep in the same manner. It is awake. It experiences visions and the discourses of the angels and of God. Therefore the sleep in the future life is deeper than it is in this life. Nevertheless, the soul lives before God. With this analogy, which I have from the sleep of a living person, I am satisfied; for in him there is peace and quiet. He thinks that he has slept barely one or two hours, and yet he sees that the soul sleeps in such a manner that it also is awake."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 4: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 21-25. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 4, p. 313). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

I'm aware of the quote you posted above - which should inform you that Luther's understanding of soul sleep was quite different than any of the Adventist groups that promulgate soul sleep. 

 

I'll wait for an answer back from the Lutherans practicing Lutheranism as to the quote that I pulled from a well known book in my library and incorporate that answer into how Lutherans practicing Lutheranism described you weren't reflecting Luther's position on the Sabbath - since you asked so nicely!

Obviously, I don't want to be using quotes that are "rubbish" and were not made by the person that they were attributed to. 

Since we are going to having a deeper discussion I'll be blunt and ask - are you a Seventh-day Adventist or a member of one of the the other Adventist groups (Christadelphian, Jehovah's Witnesses, WWCOG 7th day (or what's left of it)? 

 

 

[Gustave]

On 2nd thought I might as well start early. 

Question to the LCMS: 

"I am looking for someone who has knowledge on this question as the SDA's are claiming that Luther believed and taught that from Adam all the Saintly figures up to the slavery in Egypt observed what would be equivalent to a Saturday Sabbath. The SDA's maintain that because the Israelites were slaves so long that they forgot the true Sabbath and therefore God had to remind them of it. Later on the Catholic Church switched the days in effect stealing away the true Sabbath in place of Sunday - I know this sounds odd but this is what they claimed.

Is it true that Luther believed and taught what the SDA's are claiming or is it simply a matter of Luther believing that the ceremonial part of the Sabbath commandment WAS when it was enjoined on Israel to be "The 7th day of the week they were accustomed to" and prior to that anyone who took time to listen to God on any day of the week was observing the moral or natural part of the 3rd (Sabbath) commandment?

Please forward my question to anyone who could answer it for me or direct me to a definite answer somewhere in Luther's works that I could get access to."

 

1st Response from the LCMS:

"Hello Gustave, and thank you for reaching out to us. We contacted our seminary staff and they provided the following response.

The closest Luther comes to this is in the Genesis lectures (American Edition 1:79ff) The SDA overread this very much and its significance, as the Small Catechism demonstrates.

Thank you for the opportunity to serve you. Be safe, and may God richly bless your day"

 

My Follow up question: 

"Basically they were claiming that Adam taught his posterity when the true Sabbath was AND that it would coincide with todays Gregorian Saturday. They posted multiple quotes from Luther's Commentary on Genesis and I could see where they would get their idea IF they didn't know what Luther said in context.

So, would it be accurate to say that Luther's definition of what the Sabbath is - is NOT the definition of what Sabbatarians say the Sabbath is?

In Christian Charity I'd like to set the record straight with these guys as they convince many people with their teachings.

Thanks again,"

Final response from LCM:

"Yes, it is fair to say Luther did not define Sabbath for a Christian as Saturday, but as any time that God's people gather for worship. The definition of the Small Catechism is the substance of Luther's teaching on the Sabbath. The Genesis lectures are to be seen for what they are, Lectures to students of theology, not doctrinal teaching of the church. The other problem: the Jews did not follow the Gregorian calendar. The bottom line, is the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come. (Colossian 2:16-21)

Thank you again for contacting us. Be safe, and may God richly bless your day."

 

I have another one (response)  from another Lutheran group that I need to find in my email but it essentially says the same thing differenty. I'm meeting my Son for Lunch shortly so I'll have to come back to this later. 

[GHansen]

6 hours ago, Gustave said:

I'm aware of the quote you posted above - which should inform you that Luther's understanding of soul sleep was quite different than any of the Adventist groups that promulgate soul sleep. 

That is what I have also said. Luther believed in soul sleep. He understood the sleep of the soul differently than people today understand it. Luther also considered the RC view of the intermediate state as "silly" and "foolish." He understood the intermediate state differently that the RC church did. In that respect, he is closer to SDA than to the RC church; consequently, to say, these days,  as you did that Luther believed in the immortality of the soul, without explaining how he understood that immortality will naturally lead to misunderstanding.  
 

Your question to the LCMS on the Sabbath does not at all reflect what we discussed.  What I said and stand by is that Luther believed that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and passed down until Abraham received it from Shem. The entire discussion was about whether or not Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath, which you had said he did not. It had nothing to do with SDA or other contemporary denominations. I would characterize your follow up question as a falsehood. I'm not sure who  "they" or "these guys" are, the ones who made such claims. Those remarks don't accurately represent  what I had to say during the discussion. Obviously, you can't be trusted to honestly  represent our discussions to third parties.

I'd like to contact the person you are writing to to point out your misrepresentations.  Please send me his email in a private message.

[Gustave]

2 hours ago, GHansen said:

That is what I have also said. Luther believed in soul sleep. He understood the sleep of the soul differently than people today understand it. Luther also considered the RC view of the intermediate state as "silly" and "foolish." He understood the intermediate state differently that the RC church did. In that respect, he is closer to SDA than to the RC church; consequently, to say, these days,  as you did that Luther believed in the immortality of the soul, without explaining how he understood that immortality will naturally lead to misunderstanding.  
 

Your question to the LCMS on the Sabbath does not at all reflect what we discussed.  What I said and stand by is that Luther believed that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and passed down until Abraham received it from Shem. The entire discussion was about whether or not Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath, which you had said he did not. It had nothing to do with SDA or other contemporary denominations. I would characterize your follow up question as a falsehood. I'm not sure who  "they" or "these guys" are, the ones who made such claims. Those remarks don't accurately represent  what I had to say during the discussion. Obviously, you can't be trusted to honestly  represent our discussions to third parties.

I'd like to contact the person you are writing to to point out your misrepresentations.  Please send me his email in a private message.

Yeah, he understood it differently alright. Here Luther speaks of someone who recently died

"We know that he is blessed and has life and eternal joy in fellowship with Christ and the heavenly church, in which he now personally learns, sees, and hears of those things which he proclaimed here in the church in accordance with the Word of God."  Sciamus beatum esse et habere vitam et Iaeticiam aeternam in societate Christi et Ecclesiae coelestis, in qua nunc ea coram discit, cernit et audit, de qui bus hic in Ecclesia iuxta verbum Dei disseruit." Preface to Urbanus Rhegius, Prophetiae veteris testamenti de Christo,
1542, WA 53, 400, 17-19. 

And in the works below Luther says that God talks to the dead AND that the dead not only hear God's voice but that the dead also see through spiritual eyes. 

lam non aliter morietur quam in 5 sensi [bus}." Predigt (Rorer's Nachschrift), 1532, WA 36, 248, 9. (See 30-31 of the printed edition.)

loquitur Deus cum mortuis non aliter." Genesis Vorlesung, on 26:24-25, after 1540, WA 43, 481, 24-25.

"Est ist war: Animae audiunt, sentiunt, vi dent post mortem, aber wie es zugehet, VOfsthen wir nicht." Tischrede (Heidenreich), 1542/43, WA TR 5, No. 5534, 219,3-8. And see Tessaradecas comolatoria pro laborantibus
et oneratis, 1520, WA 6, 122, 38-123, 1; Predigt (Luther's edition), 1522, WA 10 III, 192, 28-29/Lenker 13, 27; Predigt (Rorer's Handschri/t), 1523, WA 11, 127, 13-19 (see the printed edition, WA 12, 596, 12-17); Annotationes in aliquot capita Matthaei, 1538, WA 38, 653, 34-654, 3; Genesis Vorlesung, on 4:10, 1536, WA 42, 212, 19-25/AE 1, 287.

Now, GHansen, IF somehow I've misunderstood you - you have my apology here. I was under the impression that you are a believer in the Adventist (Jehovah's Witness, SDA, Christadelphian) state of the dead doctrine and were appealing to Luther as if to say;

SEE, what we believe isn't that odd at all, matter of fact the great Grand Daddy of all Protestants believed like we do

Do I understand correctly now that this isn't at all what you meant in this discussion and factually you only intended to say that while Luther believed in soul sleep his definition of soul sleep was 100% incompatible with the Adventist doctrine on the subject. Is that what you've been saying? I do owe you a BIG Apology if that's the case. 

On the matter of the Sabbath did you not confirm after I asked you if you were affirming that the Sabbath Abraham would have observed back then would have coincided with Saturday of our current Gregorian Calendar? This is a question that warrants a yes or no answer from you. 

I hope to have more information from Concordia early next week if its needed. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, I seriously doubt that you can read either medieval Latin or German; consequently, your quotes in Latin and references to works that you can't read merely demonstrate a pseudointellectual pompositys that is unbecoming. It's very convenient that, after you slander the Adventists, essentially bear false witness against them, that you realize your error. I plainly stated before that I am a non denominational Christian, that my views are not intended to represent the position of the SDA denomination. I referred you to Chaplain Matthews for authoritative pronouncements on SDA doctrine. I also plainly stated that I was addressing a single issue about the Sabbath, whether Luther believed Abraham kept it. He did. There are multiple witnesses to that effect, previously quoted. 

As to the "intermediate state" I am aware of two major comments on that topic that can be read and understood in the American edition of Luther's Works. One is the letter to Amsdorf, the other is his comments on Genesis 25. These comments are in English, documented by the editors of LW. Anyone can read them and understand them. A few sentences in any language, isolated from the broader context, don't prove anything. Even in the English works cited, Luther goes back and forth, often stating his uncertainty. It's entirely possible that the next paragraph of the Latin works you cited mitigates what he said in the quoted paragraph.

Reading Luther's remarks in their context is the only way to get a sense of his position, or lack of one. It's much clearer what he rejected than what he received. He rejected the views of Rome on purgatory, limbo and other teachings he described as silly and foolish. His  concept of an immortal soul was different than that of a Missionary  Baptist with whom I studied. His understanding of soul sleep was different than that of an SDA.

I addressed your stated falsehood that Luther believed Abraham did not keep the Sabbath. He believed that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and passed down to Abraham through Shem. It's got nothing to do with calendars, denominations, etc. Luther was not a Sabbatarian. I never said or believed he was. His views on the intermediate state were his own views. He defined terms in his own way. If you want the official SDA position on the intermediate state, direct your inquiry to Chaplain Matthews. I assume he can speak for the denomination.

I'd still like the email of your correspondent so I can point out to him your disingenuousness. Did you introduce yourself as a Roman Catholic (?) who trolls an SDA site, spreading falsehoods about Luther and misrepresenting ongoing discussions? You should have, in the interests of full disclosure.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, I seriously doubt that you can read either medieval Latin or German; consequently, your quotes in Latin and references to works that you can't read merely demonstrate a pseudointellectual pompositys that is unbecoming. It's very convenient that, after you slander the Adventists, essentially bear false witness against them, that you realize your error. I plainly stated before that I am a non denominational Christian, that my views are not intended to represent the position of the SDA denomination. I referred you to Chaplain Matthews for authoritative pronouncements on SDA doctrine. I also plainly stated that I was addressing a single issue about the Sabbath, whether Luther believed Abraham kept it. He did. There are multiple witnesses to that effect, previously quoted. 

As to the "intermediate state" I am aware of two major comments on that topic that can be read and understood in the American edition of Luther's Works. One is the letter to Amsdorf, the other is his comments on Genesis 25. These comments are in English, documented by the editors of LW. Anyone can read them and understand them. A few sentences in any language, isolated from the broader context, don't prove anything. Even in the English works cited, Luther goes back and forth, often stating his uncertainty. It's entirely possible that the next paragraph of the Latin works you cited mitigates what he said in the quoted paragraph.

Reading Luther's remarks in their context is the only way to get a sense of his position, or lack of one. It's much clearer what he rejected than what he received. He rejected the views of Rome on purgatory, limbo and other teachings he described as silly and foolish. His  concept of an immortal soul was different than that of a Missionary  Baptist with whom I studied. His understanding of soul sleep was different than that of an SDA.

I addressed your stated falsehood that Luther believed Abraham did not keep the Sabbath. He believed that the Sabbath was kept by Adam and passed down to Abraham through Shem. It's got nothing to do with calendars, denominations, etc. Luther was not a Sabbatarian. I never said or believed he was. His views on the intermediate state were his own views. He defined terms in his own way. If you want the official SDA position on the intermediate state, direct your inquiry to Chaplain Matthews. I assume he can speak for the denomination.

I'd still like the email of your correspondent so I can point out to him your disingenuousness. Did you introduce yourself as a Roman Catholic (?) who trolls an SDA site, spreading falsehoods about Luther and misrepresenting ongoing discussions? You should have, in the interests of full disclosure.

I can't read anything other than English GHansen, this is why I leverage other peoples accomplishments in those areas. What I'm telling you above came from Concordia. By the way they happened to agree with Greggory Matthews that Martin Luther was all over the map with the general Lutheran Scholars consensus being that as Luther pondered the state of the dead question more he settled on the side of historic Christianity as the quotes above clearly demonstrated. 

Look, IF your point was that Abraham "KEPT THE SABBATH" AND that the Sabbath could be at any time than I was wrong. IF however your argument was that Abraham kept the Sabbath and that Luther meant that the Sabbath Abraham kept WAS THE SAME SABBATH as todays 7 day cycling Saturday on the Gregorian Calendar than I stand by what I said and what the Lutherans said who do Lutheranism for a living.  

Never been a troll, I meet the issues head on and do my own apologetic work. Perhaps you've not read over the threads about the peccability of Christ and the Personality of God - that's probably what I'm best known for here. Thus far you appear to be best known for representing Luther in a matter that not consistent with how real Lutheran's associated with Lutheran seminarians see it. 

I emailed several staff and each Lutheran org and the two who emailed me back did so out of the kindness of their own hearts so you will not be getting their email addresses. However I will forward the email to Gregory who can confirm it's indeed valid. Additionally I did provide both the forum name and link to the active thread along with what you were saying. 

Thanks for clarifying for me that you are not Denominationally oriented - what day do you assemble for worship with those you worship with and do you regard Ellen White as authoritative in any way? In your view did she exhibit the spirit of prophecy or do you view her no differently than Luther. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave has provided me with specific information at to the Lutheran professor with whom he has been communicating.  In addition, he had provided me with a copy of the questions that he addressed to that professor and also a copy of the response.

*  Essentially the response of the professor was that Luther taught a Sabbath without a concern over which day that one chose to be a Sabbath. 

*  Gustave and I agree that the response of that professor was to Gustave and not intended for publication.  I consider it to be a violation of ethical standards to identify him and then publish his response to Gustave.  Therefore, I am not doing so.  It should be noted that I often ask SDA leaders questions, but I do not then identify them in a published response.  This practice of mine has resulted in SDA leaders giving me accurate answers because they have learned to trust me.   Frankly, some information simply should not be public.

*  Gustave has recently been called a troll.  I consider that to be false under any understanding of the meaning of that word.  Gustave has been quite open as to who and what he is.  In addition, he has openly acknowledged that he has been wrong, at times.  He and I continue to differ on some issues.  But, I often differ with people who post here.  This forum allows people to post her who differ from standard SDA thought.  Personally, I think that the person who called Gustave a troll should apologize.  But, that is not a requirement to post here.  He posts material worthy of consideration, even if not always correct.

*  Previously I said that Luther was often all over the map.    One can argue as to whether or not that was an over statement.  But, the fact remains:  Luther was often inconsistent in what he wrote and it is often not easy to understand what he actually thought.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

For further information on the views of Martin Luther as to death, see:

http://www.ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/CTMBookReview38-7.pdf

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1118&context=jats

 

[GHansen]

33 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

*  Gustave has recently been called a troll. 

Won't be any apology coming from me on this point. Gustave clearly misrepresented the issue in his questions, essentially crafting them to elicit a response that would besmirch SDA. He specifically said he wanted to "set the record straight with these guys...", referring to who? Me, who is a non denominational Christian, SDA in general? The matter of what Luther believed about Abraham has nothing to do with SDA. He has made false statements about Luther's view of the canon, the Sabbath,  the intermediate state, and misrepresented the discussion in his appeal to third parties.  Also cites erroneous  references, vagaries, Latin quotes and references to Luther's Works in German. He admits he can't read his own "proofs". That's trolling, as far as I'm concerned.

I've been to numerous SDA meetings, never heard the issue of Luther's views on Abraham's Sabbath observance even mentioned, certainly not discussed.  Not a bother to me personally since the question was grossly inaccurate and did not represent my position. My position was simply that Martin Luther taught that Abraham kept the same Sabbath that Adam kept in Eden. He was informed that my remarks were not on behalf of SDA and  referred to you for official pronouncements; nevertheless, he referred to our discussion as one between himself and  "these guys" an apparent disrespectful reference to 7th day Adventists, who, incidentally, on my father's side go back to E.J Waggoner through marriage.