Soul Sleep before Adventism

[Gustave]

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Gustave clearly misrepresented the issue in his questions, essentially crafting them to elicit a response that would besmirch SDA. He specifically said he wanted to "set the record straight with these guys...", referring to who? Me, who is a non denominational Christian, SDA in general? The matter of what Luther believed about Abraham has nothing to do with SDA. He has made false statements about Luther's view of the canon, the Sabbath,  the intermediate state, and misrepresented the discussion in his appeal to third parties.  Also cites erroneous  references, vagaries, Latin quotes and references to Luther's Works in German. He admits he can't read his own "proofs". That's trolling, as far as I'm concerned.

I didn't craft anything to elicit a besmirching response - in fact the two Lutheran Staff I spoke with on the phone after my emails considered SDA's to be part of the Family. I made it very clear in my dialog with you that I was not in agreement that the Sabbath Abraham kept was the same as todays Saturday as found on a Gregorian Calendar. I had asked you this specific question to which you replied in affirmative - that it was the SAME day as found on a Gregorian Calendar.

As for the quote you identified as "rubbish" I pulled it from two books (Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults & Morey's Death and the Afterlife). While I concede that its possible that the quote both these authors attributed to Martin Luther may not exist or that Luther made those comments in another work other than what was said I think this to be unlikely. I've asked for clarification as to this question. 

The references I cited came from the Concordia folks and as you said I can't read those things but your implication that they are anything other than valid (especially as they came from Lutherans who specialize in this field) shows that there is something else going on with you aside from the way I write. 

 

I've been to numerous SDA meetings, never heard the issue of Luther's views on Abraham's Sabbath observance even mentioned, certainly not discussed.  Not a bother to me personally since the question was grossly inaccurate and did not represent my position. My position was simply that Martin Luther taught that Abraham kept the same Sabbath that Adam kept in Eden. He was informed that my remarks were not on behalf of SDA and  referred to you for official pronouncements; nevertheless, he referred to our discussion as one between himself and  "these guys" an apparent disrespectful reference to 7th day Adventists, who, incidentally, on my father's side go back to E.J Waggoner through marriage. 

 

Try to focus on the direct question I asked you about a Gregorian Saturday and the true Sabbath Luther claimed WASN'T hinged at all on anything outside the moral law. Focus on what you said about that and re-read what the Lutheran Professor said about when a specific or particular day started being observed. 

Someone can disagree without being disrespectful and I can assure you that had I been no one at those Lutheran Org's would have given me the time of day. There are plenty of things I agree with SDA's on and have defended those things at other forums and back when I was an apologist with CCR doing a Mormon & JW circuit.  Something about the way I write seems to really strike a nerve with you - I apologize for my part for not recognizing exactly what it is and customizing my responses to avoid this. 

I formally admit you know A LOT more about Martin Luther than I do - that's why I leveraged actual Lutherans for answers to the questions I had. I didn't need to expand my own library to do this I just need to focus on a point and get clarification - to which I did. This is an SDA forum and logically any discussion about the Sabbath would primarily be understood in an SDA context. 

You are a nondenominational Christian and I think that's great. Are you an Evangelical nondenominational Christian or are you an nondenominational Adventist (there are many of those - Jehovah's Witness, Christadelphian, SDA who've separated from the corporate body but are sill doctrinally oriented - we have have a significant number of these kinds of folks in the Catholic Church). 

I'm probably best known in this forum for Trinitarian subjects and specifically "The Personality of God" and "peccability of Christ" teachings of Ellen White. Would it be out of line to ask if you subscribe to either of those Adventist Doctrines or ANY other distinctive Adventist Doctrines. There must be something we can agree on and I'm willing to explore those possibilities. 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

I made it very clear in my dialog with you that I was not in agreement that the Sabbath Abraham kept was the same as todays Saturday as found on a Gregorian Calendar.

That was never the issue. I'd like to see any post where I ever said anything about the Gregorian calendar. It was always about whether or not Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath. He did. He believed Abraham kept the same Sabbath that Adam kept. I might point out here that according to Luther, the place of death, known as the  the bosom of Abraham in the NT  was referred to as the bosom of Adam, prior to Abraham.

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

As for the quote you identified as "rubbish" I pulled it from two books (Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults & Morey's Death and the Afterlife).

I called one quote "rubbish" because it doesn't exist in the place you said it did. It's not in the American edition of Luther's Works, commonly referred to as LW. Another reference is listed as a sermon in a particular year.   More rubbish. Luther normally lectured and preached hundreds of times a year. Any reference that can't be verified is "rubbish." Quoting tertiary sources, the validity of which you have not checked, is irresponsible. Not  crediting them, implying that you actually do your own homework, is the work of a poseur, if not dishonest. 

 

4 hours ago, Gustave said:

The references I cited came from the Concordia folks and as you said I can't read those things but your implication that they are anything other than valid (especially as they came from Lutherans who specialize in this field) shows that there is something else going on with you aside from the way I write. 

Of course there is something else going on with me. I don't appreciate pseudo intellectual pomposity. It's ridiculous to post data that you yourself can't understand.

[Gregory Matthews]

GHansen:  You need to back off a bit.  Let it go.

[Gustave]

It's ok, I can take it

Ghansen said he didn't say anything about the Gregorian Calendar. I'd urge anyone to simply bounce over to that other thread and read the exchange between Ghansen and I. He was quite clear it was specifically that the 7th day Abraham worshipped was Saturday. 

 

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Gustave, Why not just admit you were wrong? Not a big deal. No one knows how Abraham kept the Sabbath. The sensible thing would be to accept that he kept the Sabbath according to the Commandment enshrined in the Decalogue, if you believe he kept it at all. The idea that the Sabbath can be kept on any day of the week is preposterous. 

Both Lutheran Org's I contacted said Luther believed that the true Sabbath was any day one heard the Word of God and that if Luther had his way Church would be held each and every day. Ghansen says this is "preposterous". Evidently he's more of an authority on Lutheranism than Lutherans who hold Doctorates at Lutheran Seminaries. 

In any event this isn't worth the stress its causing certain people so I'll refrain from this thread and stick to my Trinitarian stuff and hopefully see GHansen jump into some of those as I DO value his thoughts as I do everyone's.  

[GHansen]

17 hours ago, GHansen said:

who, incidentally, on my father's side go back to E.J Waggoner through marriage. 

Just to clarify a bit of Waggoner family history: J.H. Waggoner had several children, among them E.J and his older sister, Ruby. Ruby married Jasper Canright, the brother of D.M. Canright.  Ruby and Jasper had a son, Lloyd Byrd Canright. Lloyd married and had a daughter, Marguerite  who raised her family in Glendale, CA.  I stopped by Marguerite's house and was introduced to Uriah Smith's grand daughter, possibly great granddaughter. No blood relation to any of these folks.

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is an important article which mentions several of the beliefs held by Martin Luther.  It should be noted that it supports what Gustave has been saying about the Sabbath and Luther.   In addition it supports what I have said about the inconsistent beliefs of Luther.  It also mentions other beliefs that are of interest, to include that of the AntiChrist.

 

Ministry Magazine | Is There a Relationship Between Luther and Seventh-day Adventists?

 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The following is an important article which mentions several of the beliefs held by Martin Luther.

It's a pity that an SDA seminary professor should express such an ill advised opinion about Luther, patriarchs, and the Sabbath. Note the following comment:  

"There were Christians who kept the seventh-day Sabbath in Luther's time, and he referred to them on several occasions. In discussing them, he was so convinced that the seventh-day Sabbath was not the true day of rest that he went so far as to say that even the patriarchs did not keep the Sabbath.' Concerning the Sabbathkeepers, or "Sabbathers," Luther said this:

"We find in our day in Moravia a foolish rabble folk that call themselves the Sabbathers. They con­tend that we must, according to the Jewish regula­tions and customs, keep the Sabbath; and perhaps they will yet in time lay a similar requirement for circumcision.

After saying that Luther went so far as to say that "the patriarchs did not keep the Sabbath" he then offers as proof a comment from Luther that doesn't say anything about the patriarchs. That's just plain wrong, a falsehood. Here's what Luther said about the patriarchs and the Sabbath:

"Thus Abraham was observant and waited for the commands of the Lord, also for the commands that pertained to morals. At the same time he observed the Decalog, the rite of the Sabbath, and the law of circumcision."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 5: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 5, p. 20). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"It follows, therefore, from this passage that if Adam had remained in the state of innocence, he nevertheless would have held the seventh day sacred. That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle. Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"Therefore although man lost his knowledge of God, nevertheless God wanted this command about sanctifying the Sabbath to remain in force. On the seventh day He wanted men to busy themselves both with His Word and with the other forms of worship established by Him, so that we might give first thought to the fact that this nature was created chiefly for acknowledging and glorifying God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, p. 80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

Obviously, the writer on Luther and the Sabbath contradicts the plain testimony of Luther in his Genesis commentary. Now you see, Chaplain Matthews, why I inquired before about the SDA clerical contempt for Luther. Here you present evidence from an SDA seminary professor in a magazine for clergy. The evidence is plainly wrong.  It evinces ignorance. It's not excusable, either, from a professor who teaches ministers.

 

[Gustave]

For consideration to anyone reading this. Is it possible that Lutheran Professors and Seventh-day Adventist Professors are intimately aware of Martin Luther's statements about the Patriarchs observing the rite of the Sabbath while understanding that Martin Luther's definition of the Sabbath was NOT the definition of 19th century Sabbatarians who then cultivated crops of subsequent like minded individuals. 

Perhaps this is part of a specialized higher education process that Professor's and Clergy go through to get credentialed to teach others - understanding words and phrases within their intended context. 

This is why dullards such as myself tend to leverage things others have done, particularly when much of what the subject in question has written was written in a language I can't understand.  

Sorry for going back on my word about not responding in this thread any longer - I inquired about Martin Luther again last night I thought it appropriate to summarize what I understand I was told by Lutherans who practice Lutheranism.