New Book

[Gregory Matthews]

Brunisma, Reinder.  In All Humility: Saying No To Last Generation Theology.  Oak & Acorn Publishing. 

*  Oak & Acorn Publishing is a part of the Pacific Union Conference.

*  This book is sold by Amazon.

[DickOdenthal]

Has anyone read this book? Years ago I used to subscribe to LGT. When I purchased a book by M L Andreasen on the sanctuary he had a whole chapter on this topic. I basically accepted it because it seemed compelling and had a certain logical consistency to it. After years of study I no longer find it Biblical. 
 

[GHansen]

Dick, If I understand LGT correctly, it posits that the last generation of fallen human beings on earth will reach the spiritual condition of Adam before the Fall. I've got 50 years of train wreck behind me telling me that my chance of reaching the holiness of Adam before the Fall is a long reach. It may be that I'm an abnormally evil person. I'd be interested in hearing from others on what their personal experience as Christians tells them about LGT. I haven't read the book, incidentally.

[DickOdenthal]

I plan on ordering this book. Frankly, the reason I am curious is that all of the strong proponents of LGT act as if the author of this book is a pariah. 

[Kevin H]

There are two different views of LGT in the church. One group says that the last generation will reach a different QUALITY from any previous generation, and they tend to set the goal as Adventist traditions. While they use Mrs. White quotes to support their view, others have shown that they avoid some of her other quotes, and that Mrs. White sees every generation as having people who have come into a relationship of total unshakeable trust in Jesus, and that her understanding of the last generation is not a difference in quality, but a difference in QUANTITY a larger number than ever before who have  this completely unshakable trust in Jesus. Some have noticed that while she does not name names (outside of Bible names) that her descriptions are consistent with descriptions in her day of John Wesley. 

[DickOdenthal]

Here is a quote from a prominent proponent of LGT.  I find many problems with it. 

 

“Becoming perfect without sin is a Bible promise found throughout Scripture and the
writings of the Spirit of Prophecy. And there can be no "total transformation" while
one believes in salvation by justification alone and that perfection remains
impossible even for the sanctified while they still live on earth.
Every generation has had the possibility of being the last, had they lived up to the
light they had been given. But since 1844 God has been seeking in a special way to
raise up the final victorious generation of believers. That's what the Advent
movement is all about.
Evangelism will explode like never before once that final generation is fully
perfected. That's what the Latter Rain and the Loud Cry will be all about“

[Gustave]

Is LGT claiming that specifically SDA's immediately prior to the 2nd Coming with reach a state of remarkable holiness OR that some individuals regardless of Creed will attain remarkable holiness? I'm agreeing with Ghansen here in that I've got way too many trainwrecks in my rear-view mirror. 

[DickOdenthal]

If you read their stuff it basically means SDA’s will achieve sinless perfection. 

[Gustave]

20 hours ago, DickOdenthal said:

If you read their stuff it basically means SDA’s will achieve sinless perfection. 

As in this is something unique and exclusive within the SDA Church - it's believed [by some SDA's] that the last generation of SDA's must become sinless in order to usher in the end of days? I'm interested in knowing if this sinless state is something SDA's attain through their own efforts OR are they "cooperating" with God's grace and in so doing becoming more Christ like via cooperation? 

 

[GHansen]

Big problem with LGT is that it simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny. Many of the so called proof texts are in the Greek subjunctive or even the optative mood. I understand this to be  an aspiration or  a hope, rather than a certainty of attainment. "May you live forever" is an example of these moods. "Merry Christmas" is another. The holidays are a bummer for some, regardless of the good wishes.

It's certainly true that, eventually, the redeemed will attain a state of sinless perfection but it won't be in this life. Augustine gave a lot of thought to this doctrine, in works such as "On Man's Perfection in Righteousness." His "Writings Against the Pelagians" include discussions of this topic. If someone would like to set forth some texts that "prove" sinless perfection, I'd like to examine them.

[GHansen]

13 minutes ago, Gustave said:

are they "cooperating" with God's grace and in so doing becoming more Christ like via cooperation? 

Yes, that's the approach. Kevin Paulson is among the most vocal advocates of this teaching today. You can read his stuff on his Advindicate website. Incidentally, he is not a pastor, has never been ordained, and speaks for himself, not the denomination.

[DickOdenthal]

Gustave, it is believed by some in the Church. 

[DickOdenthal]

Hansen, 

I certainly do not subscribe to it. I could send you the texts used if you were interested. When you study them there is a huge lack of knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek language. 

[GHansen]

21 minutes ago, DickOdenthal said:

Hansen, 

I certainly do not subscribe to it. I could send you the texts used if you were interested. When you study them there is a huge lack of knowledge of the Hebrew and Greek language. 

I'd rather deconstruct them on this thread. Some, such as "Be perfect as your father in Heaven is perfect hardly merit discussion when compared with "Be merciful, as your father in heaven is merciful"; nevertheless, they are still cited. There is a fundamental dishonesty among proponents of sinless perfection. Most will not admit that it is based on their understanding of EGW rather than an objective look at Scripture.

[DickOdenthal]

Here is one.

 

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth; for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid (Zeph. 3:13).

[DickOdenthal]

This is one of the texts often used by a prominent proponent. Obviously totally ignoring the historical context. 
 

 

 

[GHansen]

15 hours ago, DickOdenthal said:

This is one of the texts often used by a prominent proponent. Obviously totally ignoring the historical context. 
 

 

 

Great text, beautiful.  Just when these things occur isn't really clear from the context. It looks like it's talking about the new earth.

[DickOdenthal]

Here are two more. On the overcomes one they forget 1 John 5:4,5 states who the overcomes are.

 

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne (Rev. 3:21).

 

Seeing then that all these things shall be dis- solved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? ...

Wherefore, brethren, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless (2 Peter 3:11-12,14).

[GHansen]

Dick, I don't see anything in any of these passages that would lead me to believe that in my fallen human nature, I can or will attain the spiritual purity Adam had before the Fall. Holy conversation for example. Peter said we should be holy as God is holy. He then goes on to describe those who recorded the OT as holy ( 1:21). He specifically cites Sarah as a holy woman (3:5,6). Sarah was far from sinless, as her biography attests. None of the prophets were sinless like Adam.

Without spot is explained in 2 Peter 2:13, and the surrounding verses. Men with eyes full of adultery, covetous, cursed children, men who have forsaken the Lord and gone after baal. They walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, are presumptuous, despise governments. These guys, whoever they are. are simply not Christians. 

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 2/2/2022 at 9:46 AM, GHansen said:

Big problem with LGT is that it simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

 

Amazing how one person can read something and come up with an entirely different opinion from someone else.

I would submit that the people of the LGT are just another understanding of those people numbered in Scripture as the 144,000.

Recognizing that many won't buy this, Jesus also asked, "would He find faith when He returned?"

I have read Andreasen's book on the sanctuary service and found the LGT material fascinating. Fortunately, it is not just my interpretation, but at least one of my favorite preachers also expounded very well on the topic of that people that God would have that would finally reflect the character of Jesus. (I have a number of favorite preachers, just no all have I heard speak on the topic of the LGT)

Statements from Christ Object Lessons;

“When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He shall come to claim them as His own.”

“Christ is seeking to reproduce Himself in the hearts of men; and He does this through those who believe in Him. The object of the Christian life is fruit bearing — the reproduction of Christ’s character in the believer, that it may be reproduced in others.”

[GHansen]

3 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Big problem with LGT is that it simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

 

Quoting a couple of EGW statements hardly proves anything about the biblical doctrine of perfection. Hebrews speaks of perfection numerous times with varying meanings, depending on the context. 10:14 refers to those who have been perfected forever. The perfect tense, according to Bagster, always means a completed action with a result in the present. This is not  growth or a process. It is something that Jesus has accomplished for us, irrespective of our character. Earlier verses in chapter 10 explain that perfection pertains to the conscience of the believer, that we can be assured that we will never face our sins again, unlike the Jews who had to review their past mistakes every year on the Day of Atonement. Jesus has put away our sin forever. That's what perfection is talking about in chapter 10.  Chapter 11: 39, 40 explain that to be perfect is to inherit the promises made to Abraham. EGW's "character perfection" is a construct of her own devising, perhaps extrapolated from Scripture but hardly normative to the text. I'd like to see some biblical passages that explicitly refer to the perfecting of the Christian's character.

 

[B/W Photodude]

You need to be more careful quoting. You said the quote above, not me.

[B/W Photodude]

7 hours ago, GHansen said:

Quoting a couple of EGW statements hardly proves anything about the biblical doctrine of perfection.

EGW's "character perfection" is a construct of her own devising, perhaps extrapolated from Scripture but hardly normative to the text.

Seems a chance to trash EGW will never be passed up.

7 hours ago, GHansen said:

I'd like to see some biblical passages that explicitly refer to the perfecting of the Christian's character.

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,  Galatians 4:19

Unfortunately, if you continue to sin, then Paul's "travail" will be wasted. 

I am of the opinion that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit do not waste words. And when They repeatedly admonished believers to be perfect even as God is, it is completely possible to stop sinning. People continue to tremble in unbelief that they could have Christ within them and no longer sin, but there will be a pouring out of the Holy Spirit in the Latter Rain. What is one of the functions of the Holy Spirit in that terrible time except to achieve that goal an a mass scale?

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

Quoting a couple of EGW statements hardly proves anything about the biblical doctrine of perfection.

EGW's "character perfection" is a construct of her own devising, perhaps extrapolated from Scripture but hardly normative to the text.

People who develop their beliefs from what EGW said are cultists i.e.,  quasi Christians. She herself said, numerous times, in different ways, that our beliefs should be derived from Scripture; consequently, you dishonor not only her legacy but that of Scripture by basing your beliefs on anything other than Scripture. I read more than 50 of her books in their entirety, in addition to hundreds of her magazine articles. I have a fairly good idea of her general theological drift. In certain areas, it's hard to reconcile with Scripture 

The verses you quote don't even mention perfection, of any sort. The burden is on you to demonstrate that having "Christ formed in you" equates with attaining, in sinful flesh, the state in which Adam lived before the Fall. Hebrews is a good place to start. If Christ  formed in Adam before the Fall indicated sinless perfection, why did Adam fall? He should have done the right thing, not the wrong thing.

You allude to Matthew 5:48. The corresponding passage in Luke 6:36 says "Be merciful" rather than "Be perfect." The good Samaritan was merciful. I doubt he realized the condition of Adam before the Fall.  The context explains what  being merciful/perfect is. It requires that we treat everyone with love and respect and kindness. Practical examples are provided. If you have ever had a real enemy, someone intent on injuring you through theft, racism, violence, etc., simply doing that is a very tall order. Being like Adam before the Fall? Good luck with that. Remember, Adam fell, he turned his back on God. Adam before the Fall wasn't all that. What we really want to attain is the moral character/faith of Jesus, who never turned his back on God. That I believe is possible but you may have to be burned alive to know whether you got it or not.

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

You need to be more careful quoting. You said the quote above, not me.

You are right. I was quoting you quoting me.