I did my best....

August 11, 2006

Dr. C. said:

"You keep twisting what others say. NO ONE is depending/bragging about their performance!!!"

You hit the nail on the head here, my friend. I've been observing Robert's driven posts for several months and asked myself what's driving them.

When we love the Lord and our heart is open to Him, our interaction with others will reflect that love. Intellectual assent of a set of beliefs can bypass the heart altogether, and mean nothing.

According to Jeremiah, a distinguishing feature of the New Covenant was the writing of the Law upon the heart of man. Thus the New Covenant does not consist in the abrogation of the law of God, but rather its being brought into more intimate relation with us.

Acceptance of God's ways will also keep us from needing to attack others to feel better about ourselves.

In His love,

olger

August 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

olger said: Acceptance of God's ways will also keep us from needing to attack others to feel better about ourselves.

In His love,

olger

Okay, I'll ask you the same question I asked Gerry.

If you stood before God's law today would the law allow you in?

Please remember the law is much more than the mere letter.

Rob

August 11, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said: One minute after entering the gates of heaven, will you measure up then?

Are you measuring up?

August 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: You make God a liar by saying He pronounces people sinless, blameless & above reproach when in fact that person remains essentially the same!

Gerry, I guess Ellen White is making God a liar also when she states the following:

The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, [:"Red"]"Ye are complete in Him." [/] Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [FW 107]

August 11, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: One minute after entering the gates of heaven, will you measure up then? After a billion years in the new earth, will you measure up then? Be like God?[/]

Gerry

<hr /></blockquote>I measure up now, "in Christ"! However, experientially I will not measure up until I receive my glorified life. Then I will measure with God. Right Ellen?

"Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. [:"Red"]Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God[/], and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge."

August 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Right Ellen?

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_eek.gif[/]

August 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Right Ellen?

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_eek.gif[/]

Ellen White, that is....I use her "other" statements for those who need grace.

Rob

August 12, 2006

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Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

LifeHiscost said: However God does not leave me there in my dissolute condition, but immediately tells me (as He does all who will listen to His voice) the present remedy for the malady.

Your focus is on your performance! The remedy is Jesus Christ. "In Him" we are complete! In yourself you are coming up short, continually!

For a person who constantly reveals dissatisfaction with others because they don't hold to context, I'm surprised you are determined to ignore His advice directly following His revelation about the church's condition.That advice is not about me focusing on performance. It is about Jesus' focus on the remedy ie: by performance.

[:"red"] You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see....So be earnest, and repent...To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.." [/] Rev 3:17-20 NIV

You said <blockquote>Quote:<hr />

"Your focus is on your performance! The remedy is Jesus Christ. "In Him" we are complete! In yourself you are coming up short, continually!"

I'm assuming you believe your description is more important than the description Jesus gave or else you believe these words in context do not apply to yourself as a remedy from Him.

[:"red"] " He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" [/] Rev 3:21,22 NIV

August 12, 2006

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Gerry Cabalo said:

[:"blue"]Uh, is that what being changed and regeneration mean? Just acknowledging that one is worthless? One looks at the mirror, sees himself looking despicable, acknwledges that, yes, he is filthy and looks despicable. But continues on in his merry way.

[/] Gerry

This in answer to the question, Gerry, not necessarily to you directly.

[:"red"] "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;

for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.

But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless

" [/] James 1:22-26 NASB

August 12, 2006

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Robert said:So what He does in me is good, but its not complete.

Rob

[:"red"] "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" [/] Hebrews 12:2 KJV

August 12, 2006

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olger said:

Acceptance of God's ways will also keep us from needing to attack others to feel better about ourselves.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

In His love

Always and only!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif" alt="" />

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

olger

August 12, 2006

If you read on Paul says, "Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."

Christ was tempted to the point that he sweat blood. Permit me to quote EGW:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

When in the garden of Gethsemane...the thought [temptation] came to Him, Should He drink it [the cup of suffering] or should He leave the world to perish in sin? His suffering was too great for human comprehension. As the agony of soul came upon Him, "His sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44). [TDG 49]

So His temptation was to either save the world that hated Him or save Himself. The issue was between the love of self vs. selfless love. In saying no to the flesh, Christ was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.

August 12, 2006

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LifeHiscost said: For a person who constantly reveals dissatisfaction with others because they don't hold to context

verse 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire [faith], that you may become rich, and white garments [the robe of Christ's righteousness], that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness [sinfulness] may not be revealed; and eye salve [the Holy Spirit] to anoint your eyes, that you may see [your true condition]. 19 ‘Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore, and repent.

August 12, 2006

Since you keep bringing up EGW to bolster your arguments making her as though she agrees with your position, allow me, as Paul Harvey would say, to tell you the rest of the story.

[:"blue"]"One of Satan's most successful deceptions is to lead men to claim to be sanctified, while at the same time they are living in disobedience to God's commandments. They are described by Jesus as those who will say, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? And in Thy name cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?'

Yes, those who claim to be sanctified have a great deal to say about being saved by the blood of Jesus, but their sanctification is not through the truth as it is in Jesus. While claiming to believe in Him, and apparently doing wonderful works in His name, they ignore His Father's law and serve as agents of the great adversary of souls to carry forward the work which he began in Eden, that of making plausible excuses for not obeying God implicitly. Their work of leading men to dishonor God by ignoring His law will one day be unfolded before them with their true results." FW 41[/]

Gerry

August 12, 2006

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Robert said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Right Ellen?

[]http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_eek.gif[/]

Ellen White, that is....I use her "other" statements for those who need grace.

Rob

Here's another quote from, "Ellen", whom you have been selectively quoting or misquoting to give credence to your erroneous position.

[:"blue"]"None who have had the light of truth will enter the city of God as commandment-breakers. His law lies at the foundation of His government in earth and in heaven. If they have knowingly (emphasis mine) trampled upon and despised His law on the earth, they will not be taken into heaven to do the same work there; there is no change of character when Jesus comes." FW p. 43

"There are to be but two classes upon the earth, the obedient children of God and the disobedient." Ibid p. 44. [/]

Gerry

August 12, 2006

Here's another one.

[:"blue"]There are many in the Christian world who claim that all that is necessary to salvation is to have faith; works are nothing, faith is the only essential. But God's Word tells us that faith without works is dead, being alone. Many refuse to obey God's commandments, yet they make a great deal of faith. But faith must have a foundation." FW 46 [/]

Gerry

August 13, 2006

Of course there are those "other" quotes! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hence I use her "matured" quotes and not the legalistic ones that you are quoting.

Let me give you two examples. First I will use a very legalistic one:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “[:"red"]This do, and thou shalt live[/].” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”“The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. [RH 05-07-1901]

Some time later she tied in the phrase, "This do, and thou shalt live" with the "Old Covenant". Let's look at that quote:

The terms of the "old covenant" were, [:"red"]Obey and live[/]: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. [RH 10-17-1907]

Please explain what seems to be a change in her way of thinking. Why would she at one time be heavy on the law and then sometime later turn a round and call it the terms of the old covenant?

Okay, now for a nonlegalistic quote:

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to [:"red"]their filthy garments[/], their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright [scare] them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God.

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

Clearly these believers are NOT measuring up. Let's read on:

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies.

Okay...Satan is right, they have sinned, but (even though they are imperfect) they haven't fully given themselves over to the flesh to walk in its lust and desires. So a change in lifestyle gives evidence to their claims of belief in Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless, they are sill sinners falling short of Christ's perfect law performance and thereby, as Satan stated, they must forfeit heaven. But these sinners make it in! Why?

They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, [:"red"]and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf[/]. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them [PK 588]."

August 13, 2006

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Robert said:

Of course there are those "other" quotes! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hence I use her "matured" quotes and not the legalistic ones that you are quoting.

[:"blue"]Huh? So when you quote her she is mature. When I quote her she is immature!!!???

Sooooooooo, when Paul or James, or Jesus, or any of the prophets talk about obedience, they are immature, and when they are talking about faith & grace, they are being mature?

What a tangled theological web you are weaving, Robert! [/]

Gerry

August 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Robert said:

Of course there are those "other" quotes! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hence I use her "matured" quotes and not the legalistic ones that you are quoting.

Huh? So when you quote her she is mature. When I quote her she is immature!!!???

Read her statements...all of them...and you'll come to the same conclusion. After 1888 there was a major shift in her theology. Before that she was immature when it came to law and grace. She was heavy on the law. She also didn't claim infallibility. In fact she said that she and the church at that time only had a glimmer of the light that was to come. But never mind all that, you're trying to escape the obvious and that is you can't answer my *question!

Rob

* Why did EGW demand that we keep the old covenant?

August 14, 2006

Would you say she was mature in her understanding by 1902? Here is what she said in 1902.

[:"blue"]"There are many who claim that they have been sanctified to God, and yet when the great standard of righteousness is presented to them they become greatly excited and manifest a spirit which proves that they know nothing of what it means to be sanctified. They have not the mind of Christ, for those who are truly sanctified will reverence and [:"red"]obey [/]the Word of God as fast as it is opened to them...

Excitement is not sanctification. Entire conformity to the will of our Father in heaven is sanctification, and the will of God is expressed in His holy law. The keeping of all the commandments of God is sanctification." FW 119 [/]

Gerry

August 14, 2006

But then she states that our obedience is imperfect. Let me quote her:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God’s right hand, [:"red"]presents and purifies all by His righteousness[:"black"], it is not acceptable to God." All incense from earthly tabernacles [i.e., true believers] must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ [i.e., His righteousness]. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, [:"red"]in which there is no taint of earthly corruption [:"black"]. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

Oh, that all may see that everything [:"red"]in obedience[/], in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." [1SM 344]

You know, you're right about something. I have a hard time with the word "obedience". Why? Because it really isn't obedience...it's partial obedience. Keeping the letter of the law is only partial obedience. Christ kept much, much more and we fall short of His selfless, agape love.

Do you see my point? if not then I give up! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" />

August 14, 2006

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Robert said:

But then she states that our obedience is imperfect. Let me quote her:

[:"blue"]Of course, our obedience is imperfect!!! We live in a fallen body!!! That is why we can never depend/glory on our obedience!!! Salvation is by grace through faith from beginning to the end. But just because our obedience is imperfect does not mean we are not therefore to obey God. But as EGW said, and I am paraphrasing because I am not at home, "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to that end, God accepts this...." God accepts it, not as the basis for our acceptance for salvation, but accepts it as the best we can render because of our fallen nature. But living/practicing sin? Paul is very clear. Such cannot inherit the kingdom of God. [/]

Gerry

August 14, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

You know, you're right about something. I have a hard time with the word "obedience". Why? Because it really isn't obedience...it's partial obedience. Keeping the letter of the law is only partial obedience. Christ kept much, much more and we fall short of His selfless, agape love.

Do you see my point? if not then I give up! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"]From a legal standpoint, yes, it is only partial obedience. It falls short, as you like to point out. But if the believer is lovingly obeying with heart & soul, and perfumed with Christ's righteousness, God accepts it as our best effort. [/]

Gerry

August 28, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gerry Cabalo said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

You know, you're right about something. I have a hard time with the word "obedience". Why? Because it really isn't obedience...it's partial obedience. Keeping the letter of the law is only partial obedience. Christ kept much, much more and we fall short of His selfless, agape love.

Do you see my point? if not then I give up! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/mf_surrender.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"]From a legal standpoint, yes, it is only partial obedience. It falls short, as you like to point out. But if the believer is lovingly obeying with heart & soul, and perfumed with Christ's righteousness, God accepts it as our best effort. [/]

Gerry

Okay...I've waited a bit to answer Gerry's reply. Well, here's mine:

Stan,

I think that the Palestinians and the Israelis are going to have peace soon! Why? Because Gerry and I actually agree!!!!

Oh, and the answer is, "world peace"! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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