go ahead and damn me

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'll probably be damned by a lot of people for saying this, but IMHO, there is a lot worse going on here than *gossip*.. While I think posting the dirty laundry of others is rather .... ::cough:: ... unsavory, if it affects the church, if it affects people's ideas of the church, if it affects the value of the church, if it affects how "outsiders" see the church, and most importantly, if it affects the gospel message, then I think it ought to be addressed. Perhaps not publicly, but in some arena it needs to be addressed. Searching for the truth is not a bad thing, imho. How it is done is the corker.

The thing I find most distasteful in forums is the bickering and snarling back and forth between members. It's the snide and rude comments here that makes this an unsafe place for me. Who wants to post anything if someone is going to try to make someone else look like the north view of a donkey going south? I have been mostly very lucky that I haven't been on the receiving end of too much of that. But I read some of the things people say to *others* and I cringe. If some of those things were said to me, I would crumble. Wilt. My smouldering wick would be extinguished. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Stan]

Pam you are 100% right!!!!!

[Dr. Shane]

I think some people tend to say things on an internet forum that they would never say in a face to face setting. I think some use internet forums like this to vent. That is, they come here and say things they don't have the courage to say in their local church setting.

When in high school I was involved in debate. In that setting we were quite direct and confrontational. When I first started getting involved on internet forums, I conducted myself in pretty much the same way as would be acceptable in debate. However many on internet forums are not prepared to deal with a discussion which is so direct and confrontation. So I have found I can communicate in a friendlier way and still express what I think about a given subject.

And of course, we are each on a journey and God isn't finished with any of us yet.

[Gail]

Pam, you are absolutely right and thanks for mentioning it <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

Shane, thank you so much for what you have written. I appreciate that you have viewed things this way <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[cricket]

We must remember, however that we are not an official representation of the Seventh-day Adventist church. If we limit our discussions to what is acceptable to the mainstream Seventh-day Adventist church, we may as well stick to only positive affirmation of our beliefs as outlined in the Church Manual.

[Gail]

I don't think Pam is referring to subject matter so much as treatment between members. That was the impression I got

[David Koot]

What Pam has mentioned has been a real concern of mine. Discussion is really important, but please, Stan, Gail, Amelia, this forum needs to be a safe place!!! I am amazed at the level of viciousness, snide remarks, and demeaning statements which have been made--and seleectively allowed. That is not right. Something should be done. It really takes away from the credibility and the dignity of the forum, and can aake it a very unpleasant place to be.

Dave

[Gail]

I think that until we reach heaven there will always be this problem wherever people are gathered, unfortunately <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I can say, though, that we have seen some wonderful developments in some lives here, and I for one appreciate both efforts of people involved in discussions and those who read to encourage them to better relations. You know who you are- I know it is difficult to change but your efforts do not go unnoticed

For the rest of us- onward and forward!

[bevin]

There are many ways to attack people.

Simply stating that something is irrefutably true, when the other person believes it to be a matter of opinion, is an attack.

Deliberately misunderstanding or exagerating another's position is an attack.

Suggesting someone's motivation is evil is an attack.

How many times do we find ourselves doing, as we would do over a meal, listening to the other person and trying to help them express their position and to help us clearly understand it, and then taking care NOT to contradict them?

/Bevin

[LynnDel]

Whenever I write a post, I try to imagine myself saying the same thing to someone face to face. And I try to imagine being on the receiving end, reading it as it is written, which is sometimes inadvertently worse than what was meant. I usually make significant revisions during that phase of my post editing. Does it help? I guess you wouldn't know, because you haven't seen the untamed versions.

LD

[Nicodema]

There are more ways than one to inflame. Personally, I'd rather have someone be openly rude to me than to stab me secretly through their words in that creepy "isolation technique" fashion abusers use with their victims, while smiling wide for all the world to see so everyone thinks they are just SUCH a "good Christian" and SOOOO the epitome of decorum and genteel courtesy, etc. Granted, I don't enjoy EITHER form of interaction, but at least with the former everyone can see what they are doing. With the latter, when I react to being stabbed, everyone thinks I'm the source of the problem or conflict. There's so many little "games" constantly going on in social interaction, even online, that sometimes it's really hard for me not to scream "YOUR PROVERBIAL FLY IS OPEN YOU IDIOT!" There is no delicate way to let someone know that you see RIGHT THROUGH THEM and you are NOT fooled in the least.

However, generally I have found that those who have complained of my "attacking" them somehow have, themselves, been the type who attack others. Make of that what you will; I believe it speaks for itself.

And David, not to make this personal but you have the type of personality that brings that out in people. You act like you think you are right about everything and no one feels you have really listened to anything they have to say. You come across as equating your view with God's own meaning and claim because you are "objectively" analyzing text that makes your conclusions about that text correct. And then you go around subtly putting down everyone who disagrees with you and wounding them spiritually by sweeping, blanket generalizations that leaves no room for them to even hold a different opinion from you. Instead of listening when people try to broach this delicate matter with you, you lawyer the fuguzi out of them insisting they quote your posts and prove where you did that, et.c. etc. YOU DON'T LISTEN.

In other words, you basically ask for it, precisely because you WON'T listen to others. I'm sorry to have to say this but it's the truth, and I'm not the only one who has observed it so don't think it's just some personal gripe of mine. I've seen no less than four other people -- MEN, if the gender thing is one of your chains -- say to you in dialogue the exact same things I have tried to tell you, though in their words rather than mine. And none of them are by any means influenced by my opinion in that; it originates with them.

[phkrause]

You won't be damned by me. And I think from the many statements and comments and questions you raise on this forum that you have a lot more courage than you give yourself credit for. And Christ is right behind you ready to give you all the strength that you need.

And Shane I agree with you 100% about the face to face. I've thought about that many times. When I've read some of the comments.

pkrause

[Parade Orange]

I agree with Nico

[Aliensanctuary]

I've probably done most, if not all of the above. I've really embarrassed myself on a number of occasions here, and can only hang my head in shame. But that's the kind of environment I was raised in, rudeness, insensitivity, ridicule...

But I'm learning several important concepts from your posts for which I am eternally grateful:

1. I can make a 100% commitment to serve God and feel good about it.

2. I can carefully read how Jesus treated people and try to see myself experiencing the same attitudes and behaviors.

3. I don't have to get upset about other's beliefs and can just leave people alone. I will probably insult them or prove to them that I'm an idiot if I share my impassioned opinions.

Some of the topics in C/A have stimulated my imagination and energized my normally slothful self into carefully studying the Bible, and enjoying it. When I post my ideas I may sound like I'm pretending to be some great prophet enlightening the world, but in reality, I'm just sharing the ideas that come to me as I read the Bible. Even if the Bible is corrupted with errors and fabrications and plagiarism, it's still a great mystery.

Like Jesus said:

Good Trees produce Good Fruit, Evil Trees produce Evil Fruit.

If we see Evil Fruit, we know it doesn't come from a Good Tree, even if the Evil Tree tries to disguise itself by wearing a Good Tree costume.

Can an Evil Tree become a Good Tree?

Yes, but only by some serious pruning of all of the Evil Branches and some serious grafting of Good Branches from the Tree of Life. At least there’s some hope for us if the Good Branches outnumber the Evil Branches. If all of the Evil Branches are removed at once, say, with a chain saw, the whole tree might die.

We can begin the pruning process if we read the Idiot's Guide to Self-Pruning, i.e., the Bible, but sometimes we need outside help to direct us to which branches need to be removed. Better to lose a few branches, though, than to have the whole tree die and be thrown into the fire.

[darlene]

This past weekend I spoke to someone who has a family member who frequents Club Adventist. Their family is very concerned about this member and are very concerned about Club Adventist because they believe this forum is a major reason why their family member no longer attends church. (Or very infrequently) This person was always very active in their church even to the point of being an elder.

So, my question is: What is there about this forum that would discourage a person to the point of no longer being a practicing Adventist? Is it the treatment they may have received? Is it the negativity that is expressed? Is it the disbelief expressed by some? Is it the negative, disbelieving attitute expressed about the church and/or it's doctrines? It is something that certainly should be a concern of all of us here.

Yes, we certainly need to look at our own postings. Is what we say kind and thoughtful? Is what we say said in a way that uplifts and not putdowns? I believe that whatever we say must be said in a spirit that UPLIFTS JESUS and not our own opinion.

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

What is there about this forum that would discourage a person to the point of no longer being a practicing Adventist?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think that person would have to be asked that question. There are dozens of possible answers. I had a very bad experience with two Adventist pastors and it was Club Adventist that kept me connected to (and attending) the Adventist church.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

And David, not to make this personal

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

but [:"red"]you[/] have the type of personality that brings that out in people. [:"red"]You[/] act like [:"red"]you[/] think [:"red"]you[/] are right about everything and no one feels [:"red"]you[/] have really listened to anything they have to say. [:"red"]You[/] come across as equating [:"red"]your[/] view with God's own meaning and claim because [:"red"]you[/] are "objectively" analyzing text that makes [:"red"]your[/] conclusions about that text correct. And then [:"red"]you[/] go around subtly putting down everyone who disagrees with [:"red"]you[/] and wounding them spiritually by sweeping, blanket generalizations that leaves no room for them to even hold a different opinion from [:"red"]you[/]. Instead of listening when people try to broach this delicate matter with [:"red"]you[/], [:"red"]you[/] lawyer the fuguzi out of them insisting they quote [:"red"]your[/] posts and prove where [:"red"]you[/] did that, et.c. etc. [:"red"]YOU[/] DON'T LISTEN.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Kinda reads out as sounding pointedly personal to me. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

I may not agree with or understand the things that Dave writes, but I don't think I've ever read anything where he has been unkind.

[cricket]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

So, my question is: What is there about this forum that would discourage a person to the point of no longer being a practicing Adventist? Is it the treatment they may have received? Is it the negativity that is expressed? Is it the disbelief expressed by some? Is it the negative, disbelieving attitute expressed about the church and/or it's doctrines? It is something that certainly should be a concern of all of us here.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Perhaps it is that this is the first time in that person's life where he/she is finally questioning his/her beliefs. Maybe it is because others have uttered the questions he/she has been wanting to ask, but fears ridicule from the local church?

It might not necessarily be a bad thing that this person no longer wants to be a part of his/her church. Maybe now is the time that he/she is truly seeking God and truth.

Why is it automatically assumed that Club Adventist has been a bad influence, rather than a good one?

[darlene]

Something must be giving the family some insight as to what is in Club Adventist when they themselves don't come here? Perhaps the person in their family who belongs to Club Adventist has said something to them? Personally, I don't have that answer.

[Amelia]

*tacking on

I will mention this again cause I like to repeat myself. I work long weeks (yeah, longer than normal. Special calendar and all). Sometimes I just log on an scan through, log off and hit the hay. Hey, Im allowed to sleep now and then. Though I've found that the best sleep I do is while driving. But I digress. What I cant do is be here all the time providing constant moderation. I cant catch all the slips of tongues out there. Sometimes I feel that words have been out there so long that to remove them is moot. Already seen and replied to by all etc. Ive had angry PM's about posts that I havent removed. Ive had angry PM's about posts that I have removed. Hummm what to do, what to do? Have I mentioned that I am considered unfair? That I am not loving? That I am not kind? Who's the damned one here? All fingers pointing at me? Perfect!!! I have my own little square inch of heck all picked out and down payment paid. I will be going there in my solid gold, jewel encrusted handbasket any day now. WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[darlene]

Sounds like fun, Amelia! Can I join you? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Gail]

Who knows, Darlene? A person can cease going to church for any number of reasons, and many of them don't have anything to do with C/A.

Why don't you ask the person, just out of curiosity? No harm in asking... You actually have ME curious!

It could be noted here also that we have quite a few members who come here who wouldn't step into a church at all. The fellowship they find here does keep them connected to Adventists. I like the fact that they do come <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Aliensanctuary said:

But I'm learning several important concepts from your posts for which I am eternally grateful:

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

If we can all say as much <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/yeahthat.gif" alt="" />, then I would expect Stan and others largely responsible for the continueing progress of CA will be highly satisfied. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/untitled.bmp" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/GP.gif" alt="" />

[:"red"] " But Jesus was saying, " Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing"." [/]

Luke 23:34 NASB

[:"red"] "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." [/]

John 15:5 KJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

darlene said:

I believe that whatever we say must be said in a spirit that UPLIFTS JESUS and not our own opinion.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

And that is an opinion, Darlene, even though I would like to see that come down that way. It is also impractical IMHO, if we would wish this to be (that is CA) a light. If it only proves to be a cloister for those who are allowed to express the accepted thoughts of the majority or those determined to be "the correct", we will have the same affect on the world as monks who swear themselves to certain behaviors, while locked behind walls where they can be congratulated by each other for their esthetic disciplines, but of no practical use to a world perishing for efforts by all to negotiate until Truth gains over error.

[:"red"] "So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." [/] Isaiah 55:11 NKJV

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" />

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I find it highly offensive for any one to cast doubts on any persons relationship with God!!! NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE knows a persons heart, but God!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I didn't know I did that.

I'm sorry. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

::steps out of forum::