go ahead and damn me

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:

Kinda reads out as sounding pointedly personal to me.

Be that as it may, there are times the truth just needs to be told, and cannot be sugarcoated. I have often benefitted from such times in my life and having people willing to risk my reaction to do so. Medicine does not always taste pleasant, but it has the ability to fix things that are in need of fixing.

But only if it is taken in.

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Grasshopper said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

So, my question is: What is there about this forum that would discourage a person to the point of no longer being a practicing Adventist? Is it the treatment they may have received? Is it the negativity that is expressed? Is it the disbelief expressed by some? Is it the negative, disbelieving attitute expressed about the church and/or it's doctrines? It is something that certainly should be a concern of all of us here.

Perhaps it is that this is the first time in that person's life where he/she is finally questioning his/her beliefs. Maybe it is because others have uttered the questions he/she has been wanting to ask, but fears ridicule from the local church?

It might not necessarily be a bad thing that this person no longer wants to be a part of his/her church. Maybe now is the time that he/she is truly seeking God and truth.

Why is it automatically assumed that Club Adventist has been a bad influence, rather than a good one?

All questions that will only be answered by free and open discourse with at least some on the forum who are more interested in leading a person to trust in Jesus than they are proving that their personal ideas of truth are better than anyone elses.

[:"red"] "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." [/] John 8:32 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am the...truth, .... no one cometh unto the Father, but by me." [/] John 14:6 ASV

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Shane said:

I had a very bad experience with two Adventist pastors and it was Club Adventist that kept me connected to (and attending) the Adventist church.

[:"red"] "...and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." [/] 1 Pet 5:5

NASB Caps theirs LHC

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

CoAspen said:

NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE knows a persons heart, but God!

Can't disagree with that. However, the ability to discern the words that remain unspoken but supposedly found in between the lines, is largely a gift not given by God but lies in the imaginations of those supposedly discerning.

Those with the true gift of discernment use it to build up the body of believers.

[:"red"] "For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

" [/] Hebrews 4:12 ASV

[:"red"] "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment" [/] Philippians 1:9 ASV

[:"red"] "Love bears up under anything and everything that comes, is ever ready to believe the best of every person..." [/] 1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP

September 6, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

This past weekend I spoke to someone who has a family member who frequents Club Adventist. Their family is very concerned about this member and are very concerned about Club Adventist because they believe this forum is a major reason why their family member no longer attends church. (Or very infrequently) This person was always very active in their church even to the point of being an elder.

So, my question is: What is there about this forum that would discourage a person to the point of no longer being a practicing Adventist? Is it the treatment they may have received? Is it the negativity that is expressed? Is it the disbelief expressed by some? Is it the negative, disbelieving attitute expressed about the church and/or it's doctrines? It is something that certainly should be a concern of all of us here.

Maybe my experience can help give some insight here.

There are many positives and many negatives involved in attending an SDA church. Some of the values (anti alcohol, anti smoking, pro-sabbath, anti-hell, pro-healthy lifestyle) are really great, some of the values (vegetarianism) are good if not taken to extremes, and some (anti-intellectual anti-evolutionism) are down-right painful.

You find yourself asking two questions. What does attending church do for/to me and my family? What does it help me do for others?

You ask these questions about three levels - the local congregation, the conference, and the GC.

For a while after you realize that it is doing bad things TO you, you go on hoping to be able to help fix parts of the organization.

After a while you realize that the parts are unfixable because many of the members don't accept that those parts are broken.

At this point, you decide to stop supporting the organization.

Club Adventist can help you realize just how broken parts of the organization are, and just how much some of the members are attached to keeping those parts as they are.

/Bevin

September 6, 2006

::steps back into forum for a sec::

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

rudywoofs said:

Kinda reads out as sounding pointedly personal to me.

Be that as it may, there are times the truth just needs to be told, and cannot be sugarcoated. I have often benefitted from such times in my life and having people willing to risk my reaction to do so. Medicine does not always taste pleasant, but it has the ability to fix things that are in need of fixing.

But only if it is taken in.

I think you are right.

September 6, 2006

This is a comment to no one in particular:

Sometimes a person can be so *right*... that they end up being wrong. That happened to me. I was once so intent on saying the *truth* to my best friend that I neglected to see her needs and feelings. To my undying shame and anguish, what I said ultimately contributed to her early death. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It is wrong to think that *words* can not hurt a person. Yes, they can. Deeply.

September 6, 2006

This is said to no one in particular....

Sometimes, I see myths in adventism. You know, those truths that some hold so dear, that are really not truths, but cherished ideas that are toxic in practice. A relavent example would be a christian person telling you that you are going to burn in an eternal hell but that he loves you anyway and wants to save your soul. You feel positive about being saved, but it's an absolute turn off about being judged as lost anyway.

There is a lot of this sort of thing with Adventism, platitutes that we hold that condemn people before it blesses us.

For example, Bevin mentioned vegitarianism if taken to the extreme. Yeah, that is one.

Another is that we know so much about the character of God, but that character is NOT transforming us, ourselves...Sort of like we know that we are not to kill, but we are ready to put rapists and child molesters on the front lines of the Iraqi war without training in soldiering.

We know doctrines, but have no clue to forming relationships, let alone maintaining them.

If we think about it, we kinda subscribe to a kinda club that holds certain values, but we don't know how to live those values.

... sort of like here, oops. Sorry Stan...

September 6, 2006

The Bible tells us that truth is very important. It also says to speak it in love. When we attack others, we push them away.

No damn for Pam,

olger

John 15:16

September 6, 2006

There is something to be said for tact and empathy, that's for sure

September 6, 2006

Just tacking on ............

It has been said, in relationship to our tolerance and attitudes towards others, that "The more religious we become, the less Christian we behave"

Naomi

September 6, 2006

Naomi, I love those little quotes you come with all the time

You are a storehouse of (other people's) wisdom! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But you do have some on your own, too

September 6, 2006

This is a comment to no one in particular:

Pssst, this forum comes equipped with an "IGNORE" button.

And Naomi, I heartily second that quote. Although for me sometimes it's, "The more religious THEY become, the less Christian I behave."

September 6, 2006

Hi Pam -

I couldn't agree with you more. I think that you are completely correct in your assessment of how wounding words can be. I believe it has a direct correlation to the power of the Word.

Words are the medium through which Creation was accomplished. He spoke, and it was so. The Word was again present on earth in the form of True Jesus, and He spoke, and it was so through the power of the Father.

The power of words was given to only one of Abba's Creations, us... those who were destined to be the friends of their Creator. Our first parents chose poorly, and we have struggled for millenium under the corruption of the perfection that was our home, but even so, and as corrupt as our words have become, they still have power to injure, discourage, kill, yet they also have the power to encourage, heal, and give life.

The damage words do is real, as is the benefit they bring.

Pam - You did not impugn anyone's relationship with Abba, and I don't believe Co-Aspen meant to imply you have or do. In fact, I saw where Co-Aspen responded almost immediately that it was a general belief statement.

One which I also support. I have done so once on this board... (I can't imagine what I was thinking... I know better...)and was waaaaay out of line for making such a judgement.

The more religious humans become, the less they tend to focus on relationships, thinking somehow religion transcends relationship. This is the same fundamental mistake made by the Sadduccees and Pharisees, and through their teachings, nearly the entire children of Israel.

In a nutshell, it is simply this: It is not about religion. It is about relationships. Ours with True Jesus and through Him, the Father. Ours with the Holy Spirit, who is called our Advocate and Friend. Ours with those around us, subjugating self through True Jesus in order to love them and He would love them. Ours with our families, through the example given by True Jesus, not just to those to whom He ministered, but His relationship with His mother.

He stayed at home, contributing to the family until He was thirty. Think about what it must have been like to have His Love at your hearth for 30 years! And in those final moments as He hung dying, some of His final thoughts at 33, were for His mother. Surely part of those thirty years were spent to comfort her, when she had to witness His torment. Those thirty years were focused on relationship, not religion.

September 7, 2006

Glad you said it Pam...

And, again to no-one in particular: I love most[1] here, but I'm afraid I'm still going to church but not 'attending' C/A so much. Despite some spectacular efforts on the part of a number of people, I just still find some discussions too frustrating to participate in, and know I'm likely to behave badly if I do participate, so I just walk on by.

[1] And God's still working on me to help me change that to 'all'! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

And David, not to make this personal but you have the type of personality that brings that out in people. You act like you think you are right about everything and no one feels you have really listened to anything they have to say. You come across as equating your view with God's own meaning and claim because you are "objectively" analyzing text that makes your conclusions about that text correct. And then you go around subtly putting down everyone who disagrees with you and wounding them spiritually by sweeping, blanket generalizations that leaves no room for them to even hold a different opinion from you. Instead of listening when people try to broach this delicate matter with you, you lawyer the fuguzi out of them insisting they quote your posts and prove where you did that, et.c. etc. YOU DON'T LISTEN.

I just read this post today. I don't think this type of post is appropriate on a forum like this. It is the kind of stuff that causes a discussion to deteriorate.

I believe that on discussion boards like these forums, participants should stick to the issues, and should not 'get personal.' If there is an appropriate place for that, it would be Private Messages.

Since this has been brought publicly, I do wish to take this opportunity to clarify a few things. Firstly, in regard to opinions. When it comes to understanding God's Word, to understanding truth, I make a real effort to stick to what is concrete, what is tangible, what is measurable and definable. If there is a question about what a Bible verse means, then, for me, the solution is to consult credible sources of authority, such as BAGD, KITTEL, and others. I am not interested in 'opinions.' I make a real effort to avoid expressing my own opinions. I want to know the facts. I want to know the truth. And, yes, I do believe in facts, and I do believe in objective truth.

Herein may lie some fundamental philosophical differences. I believe in objective Bible truth. I believe there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." I am interested in discovering and understanding, 'what is truth.' I also believe in the Spirit of Prophecy. I believe that Ellen G. White was the Lord's messenger, and that she gave messages inspired by God, which need to be accepted as truth from God, and followed.

I do not believe that all opinions have the same credibility. If someone expresses an opinion about what the Bible teaches, then I will want to know the basis for that opinion, and will want to find out if it is true or not. I do not believe in existensialism. I do not believe that, simply because someone expresses an opinion, that the opinion is valid. I do not believe that each person is a law unto himself or herself. I believe in clear Bible truth, and in moral absolutes. So, my response to an opinion will be, "Show me from Scripture."

My intent in posting on Biblical topics, is to avoid expressing my own opinions, and instead, find out what the Bible actually says. In doing so, I take seriously the work product of Bible scholars. That, too, I will compare with Scripture. I am also interested in someone's lay opinions. But I will carefully evaluate those opinions in the light of Scripture and the weight of scholarly work product. I will not assign equal value to a lay opinion, simply because it is someone's opinion.

Listening? Listening and agreeing are two different things. I will gladly listen to someone's opinions, but I will evaluate that opinion on the basis of what is in the written Word. I may not agree. The way to sell me on an opinion, is to show me from the Bible, carefully, accurately, with attention to detail. IOW demonstrate that you've done your homework, and done it thouroughly.

So, my interest in participating on a Bible discussion forum, is the dispassionate, impersonal inquiry into what the Bible truly says and means. It is something to be approached with humility, and should be done in a way that is self-effacing, the focus being away fromn self, and on the Word.

And, I cannot forget Winston's words on the eve of the Battle of Britain: "Let us so conduct ourselves that, should the Empire and its Commonwealth stand for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour!' "

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

In other words, you basically ask for it, precisely because you WON'T listen to others.

That is absolutely unacceptable. Such a statement is essentially saying that it is okay to put down and deman someone else if a person feels justified or worked up enough to do so. Not so dissimilar from someone who abuses someone else, and then says that it was that other person's fault. Whatever a person's private demons, whatever s/he reads into someone else's posts, things need to stay impersonal and on the issues, on a public forum. If someone has a personal problem with someone else's style, then she or he may appropriately ask God for help in dealing with the issue.

Dave

September 7, 2006

I didn't expect you would listen this time, either. But it is still a persistent pattern from you that has been observed by many people, and if you are honest with yourself you would see I am neither the first nor the only one to bring this complaint to you.

However, I see no need to flay a dead horse. You are determined not to listen, so I don't intend to waste my time any further.

One other thing I forgot to mention that many have found annoying and objectionable is your predictable insistence upon always having the last word. Let's see whether you choose to prove me wrong on that by your actions (not more niggling lawyering-to-death arguments).

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

CoAspen said:

You Didn't!!!!That was a general statement on my belief, not associated with your remarks!

Thanks for letting me know... []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/squeeze.gif[/]

September 7, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

I didn't expect you would listen this time, either.

I believe that sometimes individuals get annoyed, irritated, whatever, by who someone else is. Sometimes, there may be something about another person that grates on a person. That may result in a very difficult situation. There may come a time, when it seems in the best interests of all concerned to have a parting of the ways, to recognize that things simply aren't working out. That time may have come here. I would suggest that if another person really annoys you, pushes your buttons, whatever, then you may want to ignore that person. But, whatever choice a person makes, my appeal would be to not make the forum a personal battleground. Let this be a place of peace and goodwill.

Dave

September 7, 2006

Point taken, Dave.

September 8, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

Point taken, Dave.

After the final no there comes a yes

And on that yes the future world depends.

--Wallace Stevens

I thought that was good, Nico. You are true to what you believe in.

Jesus reigns supreme.

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