Guy comes to church with a CONCEALED weapon..

[gina i]

What would you have done? Tell me after I tell you about this.

A guy comes to our church today. He sits in the pews & starts rubbing his face, fidgeting, etc, etc. Maybe he has some problems? But don't we all! On his hip belt he has a cell phone & a pocket knife that is NOT open, but well concealed. (No different than Sikh's who openly wear daggers, right?)

People around him start feeling uneasy. Lots of staring, people are moving. They go tell someone in the lobby "THAT MAN HAS AN OPEN KNIFE!" So someone calls the police.

The police come while the pastor is doing his sermon.

I mean really people, you're in a church full of over a hundred people & you are feeling unsafe about a guy who has a CONCEALED knife.

This made me open my eyes a little & I thought to myself how judgemental people can REALLY be..

I think calling the police was going way overboard. After service, I talked to my friend & she was in the lobby when this all happened as she was greeting & she said she felt embaressed because she was told the knife was open. Well, it wasn't.

I bet that guy will never ever come to our church again. He was probably there because he was hurting, maybe he had some problems, maybe he just wanted to be in the presence of the Lord.

This is what is wrong with our church today. We keep pushing people away, we keep acting judgemental towards others that we don't even know. It made me sad. It made me realize how awful others can be.

[Key Guy]

Can you imagine how people would freak out these days if he had been packing a handgun?!? Yet, it's legal with a concealed carry license (CCL).

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gina,

Quote:

This made me open my eyes a little & I thought to myself how judgemental people can REALLY be..

I will be a little Judgmental for a moment, but not mean spirited.

From reading your post it seems as though you have condenmed your entire church or most of them. Being safe in this day and age is not a bad idea. There's so much carnage in the world, it can't hurt to be safe. Better to offend one person than to have a possible disaster.

This situation can be resolved with prayer and if the pastor and the one who reported the knife, go and visit and appologize after finding out from the police if there was any danger.

I think it's not a good idea to turn on your church for something like this in the world we live in.

Norman

[Amelia]

How embarrassing for the church.[tic] Imagine all the things being carried in pockets and purses that you are not seeing. OH MY! Better start frisking people as they come in.[/tic]

[Dr. Shane]

I agree that calling the police was an over-reaction. A few of the elders should have just went to the kitchen, got a few butcher knives and then sat down on either side of him to assure everyone he wouldn't present a problem.

[Key Guy]

Recommended reading... Shooting Back: The Right and Duty of Self Defense

http://www.amazon.com/Shooting-Back-Right-Duty-Self-Defence/dp/0620281200

The auther was involved in a church shooting in So Africa, was the only member armed, and stopped a bloody fatal attack on innocent church attendees during a church service. If he wasn't armed, who knows how much worse the outcome would have been? Author discusses the duties of a Christian to provide protection for oneself, family and community.

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe our pastors should carry a gun or have one in the pulpet. That might solve the problem of people sleeping during the worship service too.

[cricket]

Just a quick comment: why on earth would the guy feel he had to carry a weapon to church? I conjecture he was feeling a little unsafe in the Christian environment. (And, rightly so??)

[gina i]

Norman, you have completely twisted this around - I really don't get where you get the impression that I'm turning on my church? People are judgemental & I'm going to call them out, I see nothing wrong with that. I was just giving a side, that's all.

It's like the one time I wrote a piece for the church newsletter & even the Pastor's wife called me & thanked me for the piece I wrote - it was on people being judgemental within the church, OUR church.

--

I understand about feeling scared, but to me, this was overkill.

Verteidiger, I think that it was just a 'part' of him. Lots of people wear them. I think people overreact to things like this. How it's different than having one in your purse, I'll never know. Oh well.

[Key Guy]

Just a quick comment: why on earth would the guy feel he had to carry a weapon to church? I conjecture he was feeling a little unsafe in the Christian environment. (And, rightly so??)

Whoever said a church maintains a Christian environment? If the church doors are unlocked and open to any visitor, the attendees are vulnerable to any threat. If a church is a hospital for sinners, it places itself in a vulnerable position automatically. Do attendees then have a right and duty to protect themselves and others from possible threats? If not, then upon whom are they to depend?

If you answer that we are to trust in God's care only, then we need to remove the locks from the doors (even at home) and cancel our insurances. If not, then where do we draw the line?

[Bravus]

A pocket knife is a tool, not a weapon.

[cricket]

Quote:

If not, then upon whom are they to depend?

If you answer that we are to trust in God's care only, then we need to remove the locks from the doors (even at home) and cancel our insurances. If not, then where do we draw the line?

I am not convinced that it is "we" who are to draw the line; nor am I convinced that a line need be drawn.

It certainly sends a mixed message to those who seek, however. On one hand, the Christian preaches Trust-in-the-Lord; on the other hand, his silent sermon demonstrates He-is-NOT-to-be-Trusted.

_____

~otc~

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gina,

here's what I mean.

Quote:

I mean really people, you're in a church full of over a hundred people & you are feeling unsafe about a guy who has a CONCEALED knife.

This made me open my eyes a little & I thought to myself how judgmental people can REALLY be..

When I read the above, it sounds sarcastic and condemning towards your church. It reads like you're saying it's only a little knife! Look at all the reaction to it, basically saying that there's something wrong with the "people" in your church for doing this. Maybe that's not how you meant it, but that's how it reads. So I respond to what I have read.

Also, you may or may not know the experiences of some who go to your church. For example, If my wife was sitting next to the guy she might react differently than someone else. Why, because she was stabbed several times in past by her ex husband.

Just because it's a pocket knife that doesn't mean it is harmless. We live in a different world now than just a few years ago (Think box cutters on 9-11) I personally know a guy in Cornwall Ontario, Canada who was always fidgety and one day went to Wal-Mart and started stabbing a girl for no reason other than what was in his mind and who knows what that was.

What I'm saying is 1. There could have been a danger, better safe than sorry and 2. In making that kind of judgment about the church you attend or some who were involved with this incident you are becoming a judge yourself. I was not criticizing you, I was pointing it out and that's why I started my post saying that I will be judgmental but not mean spirited, because in making a judgment about you I am becoming a judge.

Norman

[Kountzer]

Given the fact that there have been several fatal violent acts committed in churches over the past few years, with at least 1 happening this years, I think the church did the right thing.

[Dr. Shane]

A lot of people don't see a folding-type of knife as a weapon. Many people, especially in construction wear them everyday. It is not uncommon for people to forget to remove them before going to the airport. This report from March 2003 claims that since 9/11 "TSA screeners confiscated 1.4 million knives" from passangers that had forgot to remove them before going to the airport. Many simple see a knife as a tool, not a weapon.

Moreover, if a man were to go crazy with a knife in a church full of people, others could grab chairs or other furniture, hit him and stop him. It is not as if he had a machete or a gun.

[Naomi]

Quote:

Whoever said a church maintains a Christian environment? If the church doors are unlocked and open to any visitor, the attendees are vulnerable to any threat. If a church is a hospital for sinners, it places itself in a vulnerable position automatically. Do attendees then have a right and duty to protect themselves and others from possible threats? If not, then upon whom are they to depend?

If you answer that we are to trust in God's care only, then we need to remove the locks from the doors (even at home) and cancel our insurances. If not, then where do we draw the line?

A few years ago my 'across-the-street' neighbors had family members who were killed in a church in Texas, the feeling of loss, grief and violation was indescribable. Murders and mass shootings in our churches may be tantamount to the horrific school invasions and killings.

Yes, perhaps at times we do overreact; and yes people who perhaps have no harmful intentions are sometimes felt to be a threat; and it’s sad. This I do know, and Norman pointed it out, if you have ever had a gun or knife held to your head for hours, or intentionally cut or shot you will react differently.

If you have children, it is your responsibility and should be your desire to have them in the safest possible environment.

We trust in God, and we trust that God gave us instincts and abilities to protect ourselves and loved ones.

Often all the sympathy goes to the person who is “acting” different. Please understand what I am about to say in no way means that I do not care for those who have personality /mental issues; I have some myself. I am sure I will receive a lot of disagreement with my next statement, and you'll say I am cruel and uncaring/unchristian. IMO, if you or a family has a psychological disorder which requires treatment it is your responsibility to see that you/they get the professional help necessary.

In the news last week alone we viewed the unnecesary death and suffering of our school children. I will never believe that not one single person knew or suspected that any the killers of the children in our schools were not in need of help. At least someone had to know there were problems with their mental state of being. True, we never know exactly what is going through anyone elses mind, but they do leave indicators along they way. If anyone they knew or suspected and didn’t get help for the individual, than I feel that they are morally equally responsible.

Oops .. sorry now I'll return you to your regular programming ...

Naomi

[Neil D]

Quote:

A guy comes to our church today. He sits in the pews & starts rubbing his face, fidgeting, etc, etc. Maybe he has some problems? But don't we all! On his hip belt he has a cell phone & a pocket knife that is NOT open, but well concealed. (No different than Sikh's who openly wear daggers, right?)

I am assuming that this man had a leather knife carrier that hung on his belt. It was one that held a foled pocket knife, probably 4-6 inches long, right?

He's acting fidgety...rubbing his face, restless in the pew....right?

If that is all this guy was doing, certainly he deserved to be watched...Police..? I think it was an over reaction. If A police officer came and got the man from the pew, and brought him back quietly to the foyer, and then a couple of police officers determined that he was not a threat, or if one police officeer and a deacon/pastor determine that there was no threat, that would have been less embarrassing....

But if you are refering to an open knife, that is in a sheath, then that might be a bit different. Let me explain...

We had a sihk boy, in our adventist school system, go thru the rite of manhood, which required the boy to carry a open knife at all times, sheathed. The family,having moved to America, but retaining thier sihk culture, and realizing the delemma of the 'No Weapons" rule in our school, sought out the principal and explained the delemma...The sheathed knife was a rite of passage in the culture of the sihk. It symbolized manhood, and was pretty common among the sihk. The school, desiring a safe enviorment, maintained the no weapons policy. The sihk family, asked that if they sewed/stictched the knife into the sheath, so that it was not able to be drawn out, but still able to be carried about, would that be ok? This problem was carried to the board for decision....What would you decide?

[Naomi]

Quote:

The family,having moved to America, but retaining thier sihk culture, and realizing the delemma of the 'No Weapons" rule in our school, sought out the principal and explained the delemma...The sheathed knife was a rite of passage in the culture of the sihk. It symbolized manhood, and was pretty common among the sihk. The school, desiring a safe enviorment, maintained the no weapons policy. The sihk family, asked that if they sewed/stictched the knife into the sheath, so that it was not able to be drawn out, but still able to be carried about, would that be ok? This problem was carried to the board for decision....What would you decide?

Sadly, the hardline part of me would say that if you choose to live in the US you should began to adjust and adopt our culture. However, I realize that for many people they wish to live one place and continue the life they had in their homeland.

And, that is really a non-issue, my focus was not on the point in your story.

If I were on the board I would certainly think that it ok to allow him to carry the knife as long as it was completely secure and checked from time-to-time. I would think this a fair compromise.

I wonder how the other boys would feel seeing this boy coming to school with a sheathed knife, even if it were secured. Would they understand different rules for different cultures? Or, just see him as a boy, like themselves, but who is allowed to carry a knife?

OTOH, there are many rites-of-passage, if one exception is made than what would the the next one presented to the board?

I honestly don't know what my vote would be. Emotionally and instinctly or looking at overall effect on all students involved and potential issues in the future? Difficult one Neil.

Naomi

He who is first to compromise, will continue to compromise. Ask any "used car" salesman

[Key Guy]

I am not convinced that it is "we" who are to draw the line; nor am I convinced that a line need be drawn.

It certainly sends a mixed message to those who seek, however. On one hand, the Christian preaches Trust-in-the-Lord; on the other hand, his silent sermon demonstrates He-is-NOT-to-be-Trusted.

Why did Nehemiah instruct half of the wall re-builders in Jerusalem to stand guard plus have the builders themselves have a sword in one hand while building with the other if they were to depend on God's protection alone. Nehemiah himself was a very trusting, Godly man, yet did not turn down the opportunity to have an armed escort to Jerusalem in the first place.

Common sense should always prevail.

[Key Guy]

The sihk family, asked that if they sewed/stictched the knife into the sheath, so that it was not able to be drawn out, but still able to be carried about, would that be ok? This problem was carried to the board for decision....What would you decide?

I'd vote for in favor of the boy being allowed to carry. When I was young, I carried a pocket knife with me everywhere (still do where I can). It was allowed by my parents because they taught me common safety. Strangely, I never stabbed or attacked anyone with a knife (or any weapon for that matter). The school allowed it because they apparently trusted the parents. The sihk boy was no doubt taught respect by his parents and that should be honored.

I've never been in favor of sweeping "No Weapons" rules. Too many humans (especially Americans) have allowed the state to emasculate them by stripping them of their ability to protect themselves and others. We get what we vote for.

[Amelia]

I carry several types of knives in my purse, my car and my tool box. My father always carries a knife on him and I just picked up the habit. I am very fond of the pretty colored ( I have pink and blue) swiss army knives. When they come out with purple I will get one of those too. LOL

[Toni]

We had a sihk boy, in our adventist school system, go thru the rite of manhood, which required the boy to carry a open knife at all times, sheathed. The family,having moved to America, but retaining thier sihk culture, and realizing the delemma of the 'No Weapons" rule in our school, sought out the principal and explained the delemma...The sheathed knife was a rite of passage in the culture of the sihk. It symbolized manhood, and was pretty common among the sihk. The school, desiring a safe enviorment, maintained the no weapons policy. The sihk family, asked that if they sewed/stictched the knife into the sheath, so that it was not able to be drawn out, but still able to be carried about, would that be ok? This problem was carried to the board for decision....What would you decide?

I think I would allow him to carry it, safely stitched in. I think that was a very clever compromise for the family! I think it would be a great time as well, for the school children to learn about another culture and belief. I am friends online with a Sikh woman, and before I met her (several years ago) I knew nothing about her religion or that it even existed!

[Dr. Shane]

Maybe a better compromise is to carry a plastic toy knife. Of course some schools don't even allow water guns.

[cricket]

Because of this:

Quote:

Yes, perhaps at times we do overreact; and yes people who perhaps have no harmful intentions are sometimes felt to be a threat; and it’s sad.

, this:

Quote:

IMO, if you or a family has a psychological disorder which requires treatment it is your responsibility to see that you/they get the professional help necessary.

is utterly frightening.

And, should be frightening to you as well, in light of this:

Quote:

Please understand what I am about to say in no way means that I do not care for those who have personality /mental issues; I have some myself. (emphasis added)

Is Christianity for naught? Has it become obsolete in recent times?

Who among you will check his concealed weapon at the church door? Verily, tongues are sharper than any edged sword! Sticks and stones are for the bones; but words (deed and action) cut to the very core.

What happened to the "putting on [the] breastplate of faith and love, and as helmet [the] hope of salvation"?

In it's stead, I see nothing but the "rendering of evil for [perceived] evil".

Quote:

1 Thessalonians 5

14But we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, comfort the faint-hearted, sustain the weak, be patient towards all.

15See that no one render to any evil for evil, but pursue always what is good towards one another and towards all;

_____

~otc~

[Neil D]

Quote:

I carry several types of knives in my purse, my car and my tool box.

When I first read this, I translated it as you kept several things in your purse, knives and car and tool box. I was gonna ask you how you kept your car in your purse...My grandmother always advocated a big purse, but yours, Amelia, must be REALLY huge!....

And then I read it slowly....Ok, just me....