Does God lie?

[Robert]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God….9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here it seems like we have a contradiction:

A] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be…with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

B] God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rob

[olger]

no

olger

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

God doesn't lie - He just goes right ahead and tells everyone He's going to send a delusion to make people believe what is false. Can't be accused of being a liar if you tell folks ahead of time what you're gonna do.

But somehow, the *rightness* of this maneuver is eluding me...

[David Koot]

That Bible passage is quite a statement. I have read that before, but it hadnt hit me quite that way. Hmmmm . . . what do we do with that one?

[Robert]

Can't be accused of being a liar if you tell folks ahead of time what you're gonna do.....But somehow, the *rightness* of this maneuver is eluding me...

Exactly...and God is a righteous God meaning that it is impossible for Him to sin. BTW, deception is a sin and if God uses deception to deceive the ungodly then God is sinning, but since God can't sin (can't deceive) then there must be another answer.

Here's the way I see it:

God has warned the human race time and time again. Once day He will fully reveal His love to the human race through the preaching of the third angel's message. When the gospel is clearly preached those who reject it will be deceived by Satan's deceptions. How? God removes His Holy Spirit from the wicked because they have persistently and ultimately rejected the gospel. Hence, because of human free will, God has to abandon the unbelievers and Satan will in fact deceive them. Since God is sovereign He has to take the responsibility for the wicked becoming deceived because He, ultimately, is in control. But since God will not force Himself on those who reject Him, He must in righteousness "give them over" to their desires. He assumes the responsibility until the Day of Atonement when the Saints and God will place the blame of sin on Satan the mastermind of sin and deceit. That's my take....

Rob

[Robert]

But since God will not force Himself on those who reject Him, He must in righteousness "give them over" to their desires.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

[mrs.rabbi]

~Shalom~

Regarding your question: Does G-d lie?*

The *IMPLICATIONS OF LOVE* are vast and wide.

The study of Biblical Hebrew would offer you a more indepth *understanding of the definition*of THE Way/THE Truth/THE Light.

More importantly is the article *THE*

The Way/The Truth/The Light idicates THE Absolute ALL In ALL. More literally interpreted as:He is THE Light To THE Way Of THE Door NAMED Truth.

In Him is No darkness AT ALL; Light displaces darkness.

The Way to TRUTH is led by the Ner Talmid=THE ETERNAL LIGHT. H

THE Light of The Tsedek = Holy Man does Not goes out day or night.

Why?

Because He searches the scripture day and night.

If man on Earth is to search the map drawn out by G-d we should KNOW that He has the best interst of his Crwation at first thought. Charity suffers long and is NOT puffed up. G-d is not ful of pride and suffers to leave the light of Truth on for each one that is diligently seeking Him in truth For Truth and By Truth.

His WORD IS TRUTH.

Would the door of Kohn be marked Jones?

Likewise, the door of G-d's house and the tabernacles of our mind would not be marked as *a lie* the door of HOLINESS would be marked as *TRUTH*

Sincerely,CJ*mrs*rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew

HealthyHebrew@teachfitness.com

[mrs.rabbi]

*Creation*typo correction ...

[Gerr]

I consider this text in the same category as:

God hardening pharaoh's heart.

God creating goood and evil, light and darkness.

Gerry

[Robert]

I consider this text in the same category as:

God hardening pharaoh's heart.

God creating goood and evil, light and darkness.

Gerry

If God creates evil then God is evil! Why? He is evil's creator.

Rob

[mrs..rabbi]

~Shalom~

G-d is not evil; here is no darkness in Him.

The plans of G-d are not mocked*

They are NOT counter-productive.

Any one of us is only a hair'sbreadth away fomr being good OR evil. There is the tendency to either inherent in our nature...becasue of the fall of man.

*ALl things were subjected to frustration IN HOPE*

We are given to *the ministry of reconciliation*

The Creation is daily finding ways to reconcile itself in varying degrees to the Creator G-d.

Man is reminded of his neaerness to sin and nearness to G-d; G-d is reminded of the failabilty of man AND the Faithfulness G-d represents EVEN* when man is faithless G-d Is Faithful*

The magnificent *GOODNESS* of G-d is a continual thread throught Biblical History. grace and all it's components are established upon His goodness. From the Beginning to the end AND everthing in between NOTHING escapes His GOOD plan.

SincerelyHis,CJ*mrs.rabbi*

ClearJewel/HealthyHebrew

HealthYhebrew@teachfitness.com

CEO/FOI International

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I consider this text in the same category as:

God hardening pharaoh's heart.

God creating goood and evil, light and darkness.

Gerry

If God creates evil then God is evil! Why? He is evil's creator.

Rob

The Bible is very clear that God is holy and righteous, and cannot countenance evil. So then, in what way should we understand the above statements?

If the Holy Spirit pleads with the sinner and the sinner rebuffs Him, who hardens the heart? The Bible expresses it both ways, i.e. that God hardened pharaoh's heart but also says that pharaoh hardened his heart. IOW, for every good or blessing God promises, there are negative consequences/curse to the rejection of the condition/s to the good/blessing. Reject the good, one gets evil. Reject the blessing, one gets the curse. Reject the light, one gets darkness. Reject the truth, one receives delusion. It is God who created the laws of cause & effect.

I believe it is in this sense that we are to understand those hard sayings above, i.e. that He creates light/darkness, good/evil, softens/hardens the heart, sends truth/delusion.

Gerry

[Robert]

If the Holy Spirit pleads with the sinner and the sinner rebuffs Him, who hardens the heart?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I still have not decided on this question but I am leaning towards God sending the delusions. Here's why I believe this.

The wicked who are captivated by Satan's lie do not love the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness. They are in bondage to Satan and love it. Because of this, God sends them a strong delusion BECAUSE the received not the love of the truth. Well why would God do that? What would be the purpose? Is there precedent for this?

Here's what I think

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.....

We see that God gave the wicked up to their own lusts. Key question: Who is this talking about? I can see two good answers but there maybe more. 1. the Antideluvians and 2. the Sodomites and company. What happened to them? They were destroyed. By whom? God by the water the first time and then by fire the second time.

The same thing took place only the results were different. They all rejected the love of God, the love of the truth and loved their unrighteuosness more than God. This happened before the flood, in Sodom and in the end as mentioned in thess. All three groups did not receive the love of the truth. The only thing that is different are the consequences. But in the end death will be their common punishment.

The wages of sin are death. Those who accept Jesus as their savior will not suffer this death and those who reject this gift will eat, not taste of this death but, eat it.

There is no need for God to punish the wicked for sin right? Hold that thought for a minute. One of the best ways to prove a person is to let them be tempted by what the love. If they over come you know you can count on them. So God sends the wicked strong delusions so they can have an opportunity to reject it and then the can glorify God. But what do these people do? They accept the delusions and continue to have pleasure in unrightesousness.

This same method of proving the wicked is used during the 7 last plagues.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness;(Strong delusions?) and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Could that be spiritual darkness that comes from God, and look at their response! They don't repent, they hate God all the more.

Back to the question: There is no need for God to punish the wicked for sin right? Look at how God punished sin at the cross. Fair enough, but there's another issue here and it's found in Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Does it not seem resonable that God will punish those who reject His Son, and treat the death of His Son as nothing. This is not wages for sin but punishment for rejecting the blood of the covenant and despising the Spirit of grace.

That's why, I beleive God will punish and send darkness or strong delusions to those who love not the truth. So the wicked will receive strong delusions and the in the end after they have cursed God they will receive their just reward, not so much because of sin (that has earned them death) but because they have rejected life and treated the blood of God's only Son with contempt.

Let me know what you think,

Norman

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Norman said:

Quote:

One of the best ways to prove a person is to let them be tempted by what the love. If they over come you know you can count on them. So God sends the wicked strong delusions so they can have an opportunity to reject it and then the can glorify God. But what do these people do? They accept the delusions and continue to have pleasure in unrightesousness.

egads. that was very profound, Norman. imo

Kinda like this?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Pam,

Quote:

Kinda like this?

The intersection of truth and pleasure: truth leads to joy but is painful for a while and pleasure leads to sorrow which is fun for a while.

Norman

[David Koot]

Because of this, God sends them a strong delusion BECAUSE the received not the love of the truth.

But that would still make God a liar. And that is contrary to Scripture. I want to look into this in a little bit. Haven't until now, but your statement caught my eye.

Dave

[David Koot]

Okay, 'pempei,' 3rd per. sing. present active indicative. No puzzle there. As for the meaning: looking at semantic domains, here is the primary meaning, according to Louw-Nida:

"to cause someone to experience an event or state from outside the area of normal influences - ‘to cause to experience, to send upon.’"

That helps, I think. God does not deceive anyone, in fact 'lying lips are an abomination to the Lord.' What happens with those who do not love the truth? God honors their choice to hate the truth, and withdraws His Spirit and His protection. Satan then has free reign to deceive. Did God 'cause them to experience' that deception? Yes, in a sense. Perhaps in the same sense that He hardened Pharaoh's heart, or sent a lying spirit to cause Ahab's destruction. No, God did not lie. But, God backed off and allowed events to unfold, according to what Ahab himself had chosen. In the end, God, as Sovereign, takes ultimate responsibility, as well as for the hardening of a person's heart.

Dave

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi David,

I am still searching for an answer myself on this question. Until I can see it, I am holding to my position. But please share what you can.

Sending a strong delusion does not mean that God is lying. I found this principle which I think can apply here.

God says: Thou shalt not kill. Does God take life or kill?

Does that make God a murderer? Not so: what is it that we don't understand about that, and about God sending strong delusions.

There comes a time when God must kill. (The flood, Sodom and others.) In the end when these verses in Thess that we are discussing take place, they occur after probation closes.

It's the same thing for those who were destroyed in the flood and in Sodom. Their probation closed. The plagues come after probation closes and it's the 5th plague that darkness is poured out on the seat of the beast. That's when I believe that this will take place. Remember the verses say that they are sent a strong delusion after they had rejected the truth and the love of the truth.

Another thought comes to mind:

For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with what measure you measure, it will be measured back to you. Matt 7:2 (EMTV)

So if someone is wicked in their behavior towards others, God will be without mercy to them. Does that make God wicked and cruel? No.

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments .

Again we see God giving the wicked what they deserve. Blood to drink in the rivers and fountains. Why, because they loved not the truth and they are being rewarded in the way which they treated God's people.

I don't believe that God will send strong delusions to those who have not made their final choice. He is into saving people not destroying them. But once they have sealed their destiny by their choices and they do not repent then God does what is best for His people. Read on.

I believe that the 7 last plagues are more then just a punishment for the rejecters of His mercy. I believe that they will be for our benefit during the 1000 years when we go through the books and decided what their final reward will be.

God can destroy Satan for all sympathy for him is gone but not so for the human race. Not until we have seen and decided that they are unworthy of eternal life will we be able to agree with God that they must be destroyed. God does this because He is open and wants to destroy rebellion and sin for ever.

As a side note: I believe that this is the time (during the 1000 year judgment) when we, the saved, will be weeping for all the opportunities we let go by without warning or sharing with our loved ones, friends and the things we did which hurt God and gave a bad example which led others away from God.

Think of Adam and Eve as they look at what has happened as a result of their sin. I think they will be weeping severely and then I can see God coming over and wiping their tears. That act is an expression of deep love towards them that they will need. Likewise we all will go through the same.

Sorry for the long post

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Any comments?

Let me know what you think,

Norman

[Robert]

You know my position.

Rob

[Robert]

In the end, God, as Sovereign, takes ultimate responsibility, as well as for the hardening of a person's heart.

Why? Because in His sovereignty He allowed Lucifer to develop his system of love. Ultimately, however, Satan must take the actual blame for sin in the end.

The two goats

[David Koot]

Here it seems like we have a contradiction:

A] The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be…with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

B] God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Ahh, taking a closer look at the passage, I think I understand now. Indeed, satan is the source of the wicked deception. The verse says as much.

Well, both God and satan cannot be the source. And the Bible makes very clear that God hates deception and is "the Truth." I see only one credible solution, and it is one which is fully supported elsewhere in Scripture, as well as by the Greek. Satan is indeed the source of the deception. He is a liar from the beginning. God "causes" the wicked to experience [that is what the Greek means] the deception, by witdrawing His protecting Spirit, in accordance with the expressed wishes of the person. God allows satan to do what satan does all the time--to deceive. In that sense, God is the "cause," but satan is the one who actually deceives, just as the verse says.

Dave

[Robert]

..satan is the source of the wicked deception. The verse says as much.

[Robert]

....Satan must take the actual blame for sin in the end.

What do you guys think of the webpage that I called "The two goats"? Here's the central issue:

...And the goat shall bear upon him all their [i.e., children of Israel] iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness:

If the live goat, which we say is Satan, bears the iniquities of the children of Israel, then aren’t we making Satan our sin bearer? That’s the accusation of the Evangelicals, and it’s also coming from within our church. So we need to settle what the issue is. Does the heavenly sanctuary need cleansing almost two thousand years after the cross? Let’s look at it step by step. Look at verse seven:

And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

What was the condition of those two goats? What were the qualifications of the two goats? Did the goats have to meet certain specifications? They had to be without blemish. One of them or both of them? Both of them had to be without blemish, so that you could interchange the goats. You cast lots and the lot falls on either this goat or the other. So we must be clear that the second goat doesn’t represent Satan as we know him but Lucifer as God created him, because both Christ and Lucifer were spotless.

Look now at the second goat for a moment. What is the name of the second goat in your Bible? In the KJV it is “Scapegoat.” In the original it is “Azazel,” and some of the modern translations will have that word. What does the word “Azazel” mean? In the Hebrew, words have meanings. What does the word mean? We do not know today because the Hebrew language changed in the ninth century and we do not know exactly what it means.

But here is what we have from the best of the scholars. According to the Hebrew scholars (these are not Christian scholars, but Jewish scholars), “Azazel” is the name of the devil. So the Hebrew scholars back us up. We do have not the Hebrew manuscript but we do have the Syriac manuscript, which is one of the oldest manuscripts. The Syriac manuscript for “Azazel” has this phrase “the angel that revolted.” Very interesting and a very reliable manuscript. Most Christian scholars interpret Azazel as the Scapegoat. What does scapegoat mean? If you looked it up in a dictionary, what does it mean? We use it in our English language.

Someone has to take the blame. That is the issue!