Does God lie?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I really don't have any disagreement with your position. What I am saying is that after probation closes this will take place. This is what I want people to look at.

I have yet to have anyone successfully discount what I have posted. I'm not looking to argue but I am looking for someone to show me that I'm wrong. If so, then I can drop it. But I can't conscientiously drop it without sound Biblical teaching.

The more that I look into this the more it seems like it is the case, just as I have written it.

more questions come to mind. What will the lawless one do when he sets up his system of worship? Institute a false sabbath. What is that? It is the wine of the of the wrath of her fornication, which is false doctrine and a false sabbath. Check this out in SOP.

Once the Sunday law is in effect shortly there after will come a death decree. What does God warn the inhabitant of the earth about? Not to receive the mark, number or name of the beast. Why?

Look carefully at this, it just hit me tonight.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Two things happen: 1. they will drink of "the wine of the wrath of God" 2. they will be tormented with fire and brimstone....

When does this take place? Both take place after rebellious have received the mark, name or number of the beast and that takes place after probation closes. (Correction by Norman: Probation closes after all have made their choices, but the 2 points I have noted take place after probation closes)

What is the wine of the wrath of God? Could it be strong delusions that are poured out on the seat of the beast during the 5th plague? (Darkness) Isn't the 5th plague a part of the wine of the wrath of God? (All the plagues are the wine of the wrath of God.)

Rob and anyone else reading this check your Bibles and tell me if this at least doesn't make sense. It sure does to me. I'm not sure about this and I'm just studying it more now. Please, let me know what you think.

If this is wrong, I want to know from scripture, I don't want to hold to anything that is unscriptural.

Norman

[David Koot]

If the live goat, which we say is Satan, bears the iniquities of the children of Israel, then aren’t we making Satan our sin bearer?

Christ is the sin bearer. Christ bore the guilt for all the sins of the world, for all time.

What sins were placed upon the scapegoat? Only those which had been transferred from the sinner to the sacrificial animal, and the transaction recorded in the sanctuary, by sprinkling blood either on the base of the altar or on the veil. Those sins, satan bears ultimate responsibility for. The sins which have not been confessed and repented of, the unrepentant sinner bears responsibility for.

Dave

[Robert]

....Christ bore the guilt for all the sins of the world, for all time.

What sins were placed upon the scapegoat? Only those which had been transferred from the sinner to the sacrificial animal, and the transaction recorded in the sanctuary, by sprinkling blood either on the base of the altar or on the veil.

Sins can't be transferred (see Ez 18:20). The whole Sanctuary Service was a type and therefore it was heavy with metaphors.

"The soul [person] that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:20

Jesus, as man, assumed our corporate life by uniting His Deity to the human race under the curse. By His doing and dying He literally saved "all men" in Himself, legally. Those who reject this Atonement remain under law and in end they must take upon themselves (individually) the curse of the law (the 2nd death). But the blame for sin must be laid upon the one responsible, Satan.

[David Koot]

Sins can't be transferred (see Ez 18:20).

Not as between individuals. However, in the book of Leviticus, the process of atonement is clearly spelled out. For example, in ch. 1. The penitent sinner was to bring an animal to the courtyard. Then, he was to place his hand on the animal's head, those transferring the guilt for the sin to the animal. Then, with his own hand he was to take the animal's life. The blood sprinkled on the altar was a record that the sin had been atoned for.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Sins can't be transferred (see Ez 18:20).

Not as between individuals. However, in the book of Leviticus, the process of atonement is clearly spelled out. For example, in ch. 1. The penitent sinner was to bring an animal to the courtyard. Then, he was to place his hand on the animal's head, those transferring the guilt for the sin to the animal. Then, with his own hand he was to take the animal's life. The blood sprinkled on the altar was a record that the sin had been atoned for.

What does the NT say?

Heb 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself....10:19 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus [His life laid down in death], 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

[Robert]

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Jesus to His Father: Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt.”

What is this cup? The 2nd death where God abandons you with no hope of a resurrection. That's why Jesus cried out from the cross, "My Father, My Father, why have you forsaken Me?

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

Rob said,

Jesus to His Father: Abba! Father! All things are possible for Thee; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what Thou wilt.”

What is this cup? The 2nd death where God abandons you with no hope of a resurrection. That's why Jesus cried out from the cross, "My Father, My Father, why have you forsaken Me?

I can see how you may have come to that conclusion but, read the following from the Great Controversy for a clear interpretation. That cup that you mentioned is not the same one as I have mentioned in Rev.

Quote:

God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy.

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those 628 more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges:

Also,

Quote:

These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most 629

awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy.

Now about the cup that Jesus drank,

Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

This is not the same as the cup in Rev but we who are alive before Christ returns will drink this same cup.

Quote:

Could men see with heavenly vision, they would behold companies of angels that excel in strength stationed about those who have kept the word of Christ's patience. With sympathizing tenderness, angels have witnessed their distress and have heard their prayers. They are waiting the word of their Commander to snatch them from their peril. But they must wait yet a little longer. The people of God must drink 631 of the cup and be baptized with the baptism.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Again please remember that teaching in 2 Thess 2 is referring to the coming of Christ. What Paul goes on to teach is what takes place after the close of probation. Study it and see if it isn't so.

Quote:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Norman

[Robert]

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

God's wrath is not to be equated with human wrath. I think you see a God with human characteristics instead of a God who simply retreats from those who persistently reject Him.

Rob

[Robert]

I can see how you may have come to that conclusion but, read the following from the Great Controversy for a clear interpretation. That cup that you mentioned is not the same one as I have mentioned in Rev.

-BC- DA

-TI- The Desire of Ages

-CN- 78

-CT- Calvary

-PR- 01

-PG- 753

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.

[Robert]

John 19:10 Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."

Matt 20:17 And as Jesus was about to go up to Jerusalem, He took the twelve disciples aside by themselves, and on the way He said to them, 18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death, 19 and will deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”

In all this God gave Christ over....He abandoned Christ. He gave Him up to the destruction around Him. When He did this the hope of resurrection went! This is the 2nd death.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: Norman

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

God's wrath is not to be equated with human wrath. I think you see a God with human characteristics instead of a God who simply retreats from those who persistently reject Him.

Rob

Rob I posted scripture that proved my point without a doubt. Let's divided the word rightfully and see what it says.

It's not hard to see, there is more then one type of wrath. We have to know when each apply. The plagues are the wrath of God pour out without out mixture. Then there's the cup that Jesus told His disciples they would drink, the same cup that He would drink. Finally, there's the 2nd death

It's right here in front of us: Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:

This is not the cup that the wicked will drink of, how can it be? When the word cup is used it obviously can't be talking about the same thing every time it's used or we end up with Jesus contradicting Himself as well as EGW. Let me explain further.

The cup that Jesus is referring to in that context is the cup of suffering and death. It sure can't be that the disciples are going to suffer the 2nd death. Do you think the disciples suffered the 2nd death? That is what Jesus is saying to them in this text if we go by your interpretation. It is clear that it's not the same thing.

Then there is the suffering of the cross at a different level. The Disciples did not go through this and that is the 2nd death that the rejecters of God's mercy will suffer. That is a death not a punishment.

The plagues are the wrath of God not the wrath of Norman's creation they are the last plagues that are as real as the plagues of Egypt and they are poured out without mixture.

This is not the same as what the wicked will ultimately suffer nor is it the same as what Jesus told His disciples, they would endure. The wicked who reject God's mercy will suffer the 2nd death after they suffer the 7 last plagues that are prophesied about in Rev 16.

To summarize what the scripture teaches.

1. There is a cup that Jesus drank that His disciples drank (Matt 20:22,23) This is physical suffering and physical death. They did not die the 2nd death.

2. There is a cup (of wrath) that Jesus chose to drink in Gethsemane which He drank on the cross. That was the 2nd death. It is separate and totally different from the cup that Jesus told His disciples they'd drink. But it is the cup that the wicked who reject God's mercy will drink when their time comes.

3. There is the wine of the wrath of God that is pour out by His angels without mixture (mercy) as real as the plagues in Egypt. They will fall on the living wicked who have rejected God's mercy because they have trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This is scriptural, easily found and truth that reveals God in His own realm. Psa 91:8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Norman

[Robert]

“You do not know what you are asking for [said Jesus]. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.”

They tasted "the cup", but not to the extent Jesus did. No one has tasted the 2nd death. But what's important is that God didn't bring this "hell" upon Christ. God wasn't acting as a devil. No, evil men did these things to Christ because God had abandoned Him who had become sin for us.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

I was reading last night and found something that helped me see that God is not the One sending the strong delusions. Here's what I concluded:

When Christ went to heaven the Holy Spirit was sent for our benefit in spreading the Gospel. By sending the Spirit God was signifying that Jesus ministry in the heavenly had begun.

What I read last night said that when Christ steps out of the temple in heaven, the Holy Spirit will be withdrawn and then Satan would work unrestricted. The plagues are real punishments from God however they are not the work of Satan.

This is what I was looking for. I understood that God would not send strong delusions before all choices had been made. I was not sure about after, but now I have found what I was looking for. I can say it with understand that God send no strong delusions to anyone at any time.

I still hold to the 3 points I made about the cup Jesus drank and said that the disciples would drink. They tasted of no death except the 1st death. In this conversation He was talking about physical suffering and the 1st death they would suffer.

2nd point is Jesus dying the 2nd death. This is not the same cup as that of Matt 20: 22,23

3rd point is that the 7 literal last plagues are real and are sent by God. This is the cup of the wine of the wrath of God. It has to do with suffering of the wicked.

It's only right for them to suffer. God's people suffered and will suffer by drinking the cup Jesus talked about in Matt 20:22, 23. The wicked suffer by drinking the wine of the wrath of God: i.e. the plagues and then in the end die the 2nd death.

God's people on the other hand will suffer by drinking the cup Jesus told us about. But we will not suffer the 2nd death because we have accepted Jesus as our substitute, in His life and death and resurrection. The parallel is clear

We suffer (the cup in Matt 20:22, 23)

They suffer (the wine of the wrath of God without mixture of Mercy Rev 16)

We died the 2nd death in Christ

They die the 2nd death in Adam

God is just and righteous in giving them this all the punishment they choose. He has warned us all of the consequences of our choices.

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy....(and they have) blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 9

These plagues are not the wages of sin; that will come in the form of the 2nd death. They are because of the way they treat the Son of God in the person of His saints.

Quote:

Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

They are being punished for having "trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace" A down payment of the reward to come, which they have earned and chosen

Do you see the 3 different cups?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

You said,

Quote:

They tasted "the cup", but not to the extent Jesus did.

This statement is not backed by scripture.

Jesus said,

Quote:

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, [color:#3333FF]and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: Mat 20:23

Jesus did not say that they would taste. They were to drink, which is more than to taste. This signifies a different cup than He mentioned in Gethsemane and drank on the cross.

To keep this short; the difference in the death of Jesus and His disciples is the 2nd death for the suffering of sins. Since the disciples did not die that death, it's too obvious to miss that these are not the same deaths or cups. Physical suffering is common to both and being contradicted by sinners but not the 2nd death.

Norman

[Robert]

God doesn't cause pain and suffering. God doesn't cause the seven last plagues, etc, etc, etc....They are the natural progression of a dying world under Satan's reign. When God's Spirit is removed from this world His sustaining power and protection go with Him. He leaves because He is universally rejected.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Rob,

Quote:

God doesn't cause pain and suffering. God doesn't cause the seven last plagues, etc, etc, etc....

I guess will have to disagree on that. The Bible is clear though, it says He send them. And the result is that the wicked do not repent but blaspheme God.

The plagues are for this very fact; to show that they will not repent. Why would Satan try to cause pain, suffering and death to get them to repent?

makes no sense Rob, look at it carefully.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Take some time and pray about this verse and I think you'll see it.

Norman

[Robert]

The Bible is clear....

Actually it's not so clear. What's clear is your belief, which I do not share. Why?

1] I don't think that it's Biblical

2] As you look around the globe one thing keeps coming up: Religious’ practitioners rise no higher than their images of God. Hence much religion is given over to bloodshed in the name of God.

Look, the Bible is riddled with ethical problems when it comes to God. Such quotes as "I harden Pharaoh’s heart." And why? So he [Pharaoh] wouldn't let My people go. Remember the idea was to deliver Israel, not keep them in bondage. Makes no sense!

Then you have, "I the Lord...create evil"! You have, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" and on and on and on.

I feel I understand these issues because I see God assuming the blame for that which He does not stop. And the reason He does not stop human free will is because His love can do no other.

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Rob,

we'll have to disagree

Norman

[Robert]

No, I must force you to see it my way!!!

Rob