SOP & Book of Enoch

[Dr. Shane]

Interesting commentary on the Book of Enoch:

Link >>> What is the Book of Enoch?

Quote:

The Book of Enoch is a book written between the Old and New Testaments. Probable date of writing was between 150-80 B.C. Copies of the Book of Enoch have been found among the Dead Sea scrolls. If this date is accurate, obviously the Book of Enoch was not written by the real Enoch who lived before the flood.

Quote:

The book of Enoch was a well respected writing among some of the Jews in New Testament times. Even though it was not inspired, it contains some truth (and some falsehood - like angels marrying humans) like most books.

Is the SOP on the same level of inspiration as the Book of Enoch?

[bevin]

It was a common practise in the Middle East before and after Jesus to assign books to people who did not actually write them.

The Book of Enoch is not the only one - and it is quite possible that some of the books of the OT fall into this category.

The SOP is a wide range of material. Consider the range

• A letter sent by EGW to a specific individual
• Such a letter which is published in a collection made during her life
• Such a letter which is published in a collection made after her life
• An article she wrote for a magazine
• An book her literary assistants assembled out of her writings, the writings of other historians, etc and approved by her during her life
• A book completed after her death
• A compilation assembled after her death

Which of these do you want the compare the Book of Enoch too?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

The interesting comparison is that Jude, under inspiration, quoted from the book of Enoch. So obviously part of the book of Enoch was inspired however not all of it and thus it was not included in the cannon.

[bevin]

Inspired books can quote from non-inspired ones.

EGW quoted from history books that no-one claims are inspired

/Bevin

[Woody]

Much of Ellen Whites writings are not inspired or even true. Some of her visions have been proven to be wrong.

I will quote one here :

In 1 T page 131 + 132 She was shown in the early 1850s when shown in vision that among the people present at a particular gathering that "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus".

Now ... If I am in error and it is possible for someone who was at that gathering to still be alive today and be able to see Jesus when he comes in the clouds ... then please correct me.

And if there is some other way to understand what she has said here.... please help me.

[John317]

I have a copy of the book of Enoch. It was defintely not inspired. To put it bluntly, most of it is a lot of tomfoolery and hogwash.

The early Christians and Jews respected, and even accepted as inspired, books we would not walk across the street for today. They included writings that claimed to tell about Jesus as a baby talking like an adult or killing his little friends because they killed the birds made of mud that the child Jesus made to fly. That also was a lot of foolishness.

Paul quoted from three different pagan writers who told the truth even though their writings were not inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Truth is truth no matter who says it. If I say a certain group of people are lazy gluttons, if they are indeed as I describe them, then it is true whether God inspired me to say it or not. That is doubtless why Paul quoted the Cretan poet, Epimenides, (whom Paul called a prophet) in Titus 1:12 and Acts 17:28, and quoted the Cilician poet, Aratus, in Acts 17:28. As Paul says, their testimony was true and that is all that mattered. It shows that Paul was well acquainted with these poets' writings and no doubt had memorized at least portions of them, as was the custom of educated people in those days since they did not carry books around as we do today.

In case you are interested, the line, "We are his offspring," occurs in two different poems, one by Aratus (Phaenomena) and another by Cleanthes (Hymn to Zeus). I am certain that Paul also studied Plato and was well acquainted with Homer.

[John317]

Redwood said, Much of Ellen Whites writings are not inspired or even true. Some of her visions have been proven to be wrong.

I will quote one here :

In 1 T page 131 + 132 She was shown in the early 1850s when shown in vision that among the people present at a particular gathering that "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus".

Now ... If I am in error and it is possible for someone who was at that gathering to still be alive today and be able to see Jesus when he comes in the clouds ... then please correct me.

And if there is some other way to understand what she has said here.... please help me.

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Hi Redwood,

No, everyone at that gathering is quite dead in their graves. But does that mean Ellen White was lying? If all I did was read that to someone, and make no explanation of it, they would be right to think that anyone who said that did not tell the truth. Many people come to the same conclusions about some things contained in the Bible, a book that Jesus said tells us the truth.

Jesus said, "I tell the you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27.

Jonah preached, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." Jonah 3:4.

1 Thess. 4:15 says that the writer of that book would among the living when Jesus comes back for His church.

The book of Revelation (c. 90 AD, or almost 2000 years ago) begins and ends with the statement that Jesus Christ would come quickly, or soon.

The book of Zechariah contains many prophecies that will never come true. That is because those prophecies are conditional, just as the prophecies in Deut. 28 and 29 are based on conditions.

God and His prophet told the people of Israel that they would be led into the promised land. Most of them actually died in the wilderness.

But did God lie?

No, and neither did Ellen White lie when she said some of those people at that gathering would live to see Jesus come.

All of God's promises and threatenings are alike conditional. All call for us to make a choice, and what happens is based on those choices we make. What many people don't realize is that Christ could have come about 1890. Just as God fully intended for the children of Israel to go right into the promised land after leaving Egypt-- without wandering in the wilderness and dying there-- so God fully intended for the Adventists to accept the message brought by God in 1888 so that He could come for them about two years later. But as a whole, the church rejected the message and rebelled against God. So today, about 116 years later, we are still wandering in the wilderness of this world. Every generation has choices to make in regard to obedience and faith in God and those choices will determine when Christ actually returns for His people.

[Woody]

Thank you John 317 for a good perspective.

I think your points are well taken.

I would like to explore what you said about "All of God's promises being conditional" I fully believe that. But, I was wondering if you have some good Biblical support for the statement. I would really appreciate being able to support my belief of that with Bible texts.

REDWOOD

[bevin]

Consider two assertions

1) "all prophecies are conditional"

2) "even true prophets make mistakes"

How does one determine which of these two explanations for such discrepancies is correct?

/Bevin

[John317]

The Bible does not say in so many words, "All of God's promises and threatenings are alike conditional," but certainly if we read the Bible and pay attention to the following verses and facts, we cannot help but see that God's promises and His threats do depend on people's responses. For instance, we know for sure that God would not have sent the flood to destroy the earth if people who listened to Noah had repented and turned to God in obedience and faith.

Jonah preached, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." Jonah 3:4. Ninevah was not detroyed after 40 days as Jonah preached. But did that mean he was lying? Notice that the threat did not include the word "if", yet it was obviously a conditional threat.

1 Thess. 4:15 says that the writer of that book would among the living when Jesus comes back for His church. Paul was beheaded and buried about 68 AD. Did that mean Paul lied or was deceived, or deceived his readers into believing a lie?

The book of Revelation (c. 90 AD, or almost 2000 years ago) begins and ends with the statement that Jesus Christ would come quickly, or soon. Does that mean the book of Revelation is a lie?

The book of Zechariah contains many prophecies that will never come true. That is because those prophecies are conditional, just as the prophecies in Deut. 28 and 29 are based on conditions.

God and His prophet told the people of Israel that they would be led into the promised land. Most of them actually died in the wilderness.

I find those are very strong Bible proofs that God's promises and threats are alike conditional.

I have to go get ready for the Sabbath. I intend to be back on CA tonight and will be happy to talk more then. John317

[Woody]

Bevin ... I think we have to concur that All Prophets make mistakes. That is a hard one for our church.But, I don't see a problem with it. Mrs. White is a great blessing to our church. Let us accept the Blessing and not have to build her up as a perfect Saint in all her doings.

Just remember that one of the Prophets was a donkey. And if God can work through a faulty donkey then he can work through any thing faulty or not.

[John317]

Consider two assertions

1) "all prophecies are conditional"

2) "even true prophets make mistakes"

How does one determine which of these two explanations for such discrepancies is correct?

/Bevin

Top

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But who said, "Even true prophets make mistakes"?

True prophets do not make mistakes in their prophecies. By "mistakes," I mean material, important mistakes that alter the meaning of their writings in significant ways.

Some people, perhaps I could even say many people, have made the mistake of thinking that true prophets never make any errors or mistakes at all, ever, in any way. That clearly is ridiculous and absurd, yet people have lost faith not only in Ellen White because of such foolishness but have eventually lost faith in the Bible because of it.

One thing that goes along with this idea, and should be kept in mind, is that prophets sometimes don't even understand their own visions. Daniel is a good example of this. Ellen White sometimes did not, either. She sometimes did not know if her vision was of something in the past or the present.

Now I really must go. Talk later.

[Woody]

I just thought I would add that God considers us perfect even though we are terrible sinners. God honored the likes of Abraham when he was drunk and sleeping around with the wrong people.

God called David a man after his own heart. He prospered David even though David was one of the most wicked men in the Bible. David committed murders and would never be allowed to head the SDA church if he were alive now. He actually would be disfellowshipped. David some say was transformed and became a better person towards the end of his life. NOT !! David conspired to commit murder while on his death bed. It was one of the last things he did in his life.

Yet I think GOD considers David or Counts David as perfect. God will do the same for us. PRAISE THE LORD.

[David Koot]

I just thought I would add that God considers us perfect even though we are terrible sinners. God honored the likes of Abraham when he was drunk and sleeping around with the wrong people.

God called David a man after his own heart. He prospered David even though David was one of the most wicked men in the Bible. David committed murders and would never be allowed to head the SDA church if he were alive now. He actually would be disfellowshipped. David some say was transformed and became a better person towards the end of his life. NOT !! David conspired to commit murder while on his death bed. It was one of the last things he did in his life.

[Woody]

Rubbish ???

I would say that any person who commits murder is an evil man. Yes, any murderer can repent and make his life right. But the "evil" deed has been done. David conspiring to kill on his death bed speaks loudly to the fact that he had not changed a lot.

[David Koot]

You still are saying that David was conspiring to kill on his deathbed. Who was he 'conspiring to kill,' and why?

[Woody]

John 317 said "True prophets do not make mistakes in their prophecies. By "mistakes," I mean material, important mistakes that alter the meaning of their writings in significant ways."

..............................................................

I would like to ask you about this material mistake she made ... that those people in the room would be alive and see Jesus come in the clouds. That prophecy did not come true. Are you saying that her prophecy was conditional?

According to the SDA Believe book ... one of the tests of a Prophet is the accuracy of predictions. They say Ellen White was accurate. But, in this vision I would have to say she was not. So .......Again if you feel this was conditional please explain. OR is it necessary for a prophet to always be accurate with the predictions of prophecy.??

[David Koot]

'Material mistake'? You are assuming that? What is your understanding of the source of her statement?

[Woody]

You still are saying that David was conspiring to kill on his deathbed. Who was he 'conspiring to kill,' and why?

David ... My concordance states the following ... "No Bible character more fully issustrates the moral range of human nature." I think this better states it than I did. He had a big range of good behavior and a big range of Bad behavior. You could say he was the worst and the best. I said he was one of the worst. And I think the concordance stated it better.

To answer the above question ... David instructed Solomon to kill Joab while he (David) was on his death bed and unable to do the deed himself. Solomon went out and did as David instructed. Solomon served as the hit man for David.

I am not sure what the justification was that David would give but I can find no excuse that would justify murder of anyone for any reason. Taking a life is not left up to our individual discresion. Murder is murder. David on his own desire for this person's death ... ordered the murder.

If you have any other insights on this matter ... I would love to hear what you know about it. I don't claim to be the final word and would love to hear more on the subject.

.

[Woody]

One more thing David ... If David wanted to have Joab killed because of a premeditated killing ... then maybe he should have killed himself. He committed adultry with Bethsheba and then killed her husband so he could marry her. So ... If Joab was to be killed by Davids own judgment then David himself should have been killed. I hardly think David should be allowed to sit in judgment of something he himself did. Unless it would be to provide mercy. Which he didn't.

[David Koot]

I am not sure what the justification was that David would give but I can find no excuse that would justify murder of anyone for any reason. Taking a life is not left up to our individual discresion. Murder is murder. David on his own desire for this person's death ... ordered the murder.

Let's look at the verse, 1 Kings 2:5:

" "Moreover you know also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, and what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner and Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed. And he shed the blood of war in peacetime, and put the blood of war on his belt that was around his waist, and on his sandals that were on his feet."

Read on, to vv. 31 - 33. Here you find the reason why this needed to be done:

"Then the king said to him, "Do as he has said, and strike him down and bury him, that you may take away from me and from the house of my father the innocent blood which Joab shed.

32 "So the LORD will return his blood on his head, because he struck down two men more righteous and better than he, and killed them with the sword-Abner the son of Ner, the commander of the army of Israel, and Amasa the son of Jether, the commander of the army of Judah-though my father David did not know it.

33 "Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab and upon the head of his descendants forever. But upon David and his descendants, upon his house and his throne, there shall be peace forever from the LORD."

[Woody]

David ... the quote about Ellen White's "mistake" is on page one. If you don't want to look back I will paste it here.

In 1 T page 131 + 132 She was shown in the early 1850s when shown in vision that among the people present at a particular gathering that "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus".

[Woody]

Again David ... My response would be the same ...

If David wanted to have Joab killed because of a premeditated killing ... then maybe he should have killed himself. He committed adultry with Bethsheba and then killed her husband so he could marry her. So I hardly think David should be allowed to sit in judgment of something he himself did. Unless it would be to provide mercy. Which he didn't.

[David Koot]

Well, I understand that is your position. I simply pointed out the reason stated in Scripture for the execution. KIM that God Himself seems to take such things very seriously. For example, Israel suffered a drought for several years. When David asked why, God said it was because of what Saul had done to the Gibeonites. David ordered that seven of Saul's sons be hanged. They had done nothing to the Gibeonites. But it was done, and God ended the drought! Another example is what Manasseh did in Judah. He shed so much innocent blood that the land became polluted, and God said that He HAD to send the people into exile because of what Manasseh had done!

At any rate, you may have a different opinion about what should have been done. Simply, that is the Bible record.

[Woody]

Thank you David ... I appreciate the examples. Very interesting and thought provoking. The ways of God are a mystery to me many times. And this may be another example of that.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Redwood