SOP & Book of Enoch

[David Koot]

Thank you for your response. As for David being put to death by God for what he had done, it may indeed have been pending. I would guess that one reason Nathan confronted David about his great sin, may have been to give David an opportunity to repent. If he had refused to repent, then the calamity which befell many of his successors on the throne may well have happened to him. Why was Joab put to death and not David? Possibly because Joab had not repented of what he had done. That seems to be implied in the account, and I believe the book PP says something about that.

[bevin]

Quote:

True prophets do not make mistakes in their prophecies. By "mistakes," I mean material, important mistakes that alter the meaning of their writings in significant ways.

I think true prophets make serious mistakes.

• Moses struck the rock
• Jonah really made a big one - he ran from God.
• Peter swore that he did not know Jesus
• Paul persecuted God's people and approved of the stoning of Steven.
• There were important disagreements between Paul and the disciples.

Once you stop expecting the prophets to be perfect in everything they do, and start using your own brain and the brains of your fellow christians to get an understanding of the complexity of the situation, you can stop trying to defend the indefensible.

/Bevin

[Gregory Matthews]

The fact that someone is wrong does not mean that they lied. The were simply wrong.

Ellen White never claimed to be without error.

In the passage that Redwood cited, I am willing to say that EGW was wrong. But, John gives a good response to that, in his citation of Biblical characters.

Here are some interesting comments from EGW as to how she looked upon this issue:

"In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. his word is true, and in Him no variableness, or shadow of turning." 1 SM 37

". . . the knowledge I have obtained of such things I have gained by inquiring of those who were supposed to know. In my words, when speaking upon these common subjects, there is nothing to lead minds to believe that I receive my knowledge in a vision from the Lord and am stating it as such. . ." 1 SM 38

"But there are times when common things must be stated, common thoughts must occupy the mind, common letters must be written and information given that has passed from one to another of the workers. Such words, such information, are not given under the special inspiration of the Spirit of God. Questions are asked at times that are not upon religious subjects at all, and these questions must be answered. We converse about houses and lands, trades to be made, and locations for our institutions, their advantages and disadvantages." 1 SM 309

[David Koot]

In the passage that Redwood cited, I am willing to say that EGW was wrong. But, John gives a good response to that, in his citation of Biblical characters.

[Woody]

David ... you asked for the source and I gave it to you. I will give it to you again :

In 1 T page 131 + 132 She was shown in the early 1850s when shown in vision that among the people present at a particular gathering that "some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus".

That source is the FIRST volume of the testimonies page 131 to 132. These words were spoken to her by an angel in vision. Perhaps I do not understand your question and that is why you keep saying I have not answered you. Please forgive my ignorance.

I must say I am confused at you talking about "common things". Can you give ME the source? Ellen White on this issue was having a conversation with the angel about it. Page 132 says " Solemn words were these spoken by the angel" She says the words were Solemn NOT common. Can you explain?

Saving that some in that room will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus is not a common matter. Please help me understand your point. Sorry I am so slow.

REDWOOD

[Woody]

I would like to say that Bevin and Gregory have made some very good points. We need to dispel this idea that EGW or any prophet was infallible. They are human and we have to expect error. What we have to do as she instructed us to do is to check all that she says to the word of God. Then we can't go wrong.

Don't forget that some prophets were not human. A donkey can hardly be considered perfect. God will use whatever he needs to use and he will use sinful humans or even unhuman animals to communicate His message.

Happy Sabbath,

Redwood

[John317]

John 317 said "True prophets do not make mistakes in their prophecies. By "mistakes," I mean material, important mistakes that alter the meaning of their writings in significant ways."

..............................................................

I would like to ask you about this material mistake she made ... that those people in the room would be alive and see Jesus come in the clouds. That prophecy did not come true. Are you saying that her prophecy was conditional?

According to the SDA Believe book ... one of the tests of a Prophet is the accuracy of predictions. They say Ellen White was accurate. But, in this vision I would have to say she was not. So .......Again if you feel this was conditional please explain. OR is it necessary for a prophet to always be accurate with the predictions of prophecy.??

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Hi Redwood,

Have you written to the Ellen White Estate and ask them about this? You might want to do that as they have been asked the questions many time and have had years to think about it, and of course they have all the resources.

All of God's promises and threatenings are alike conditional. All call for us to make a choice, and what happens is based on those choices we make. What many people don't realize is that Christ could have come about 1890. Just as God fully intended for the children of Israel to go right into the promised land after leaving Egypt-- without wandering in the wilderness and dying there-- so God fully intended for the Adventists to accept the message brought by God in 1888 so that He could come for them about two years later. But as a whole, the church rejected the message and rebelled against God. So today, about 116 years later, we are still wandering in the wilderness of this world. Every generation has choices to make in regard to obedience and faith in God and those choices will determine when Christ actually returns for His people.

Look at these Bible prophecies that also apparently failed to come true:

Jonah preached, "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned." Jonah 3:4. Ninevah was not detroyed after 40 days as Jonah preached. But did that mean he was lying? Notice that the threat did not include the word "if", yet it was obviously a conditional threat.

1 Thess. 4:15 says that the writer of that book would among the living when Jesus comes back for His church. Paul was beheaded and buried about 68 AD. Did that mean Paul lied or was deceived, or deceived his readers into believing a lie?

The book of Revelation (c. 90 AD, or almost 2000 years ago) begins and ends with the statement that Jesus Christ would come quickly, or soon. Does that mean the book of Revelation is a lie?

The book of Zechariah contains many prophecies that will never come true. That is because those prophecies are conditional, just as the prophecies in Deut. 28 and 29 are based on conditions.

God and His prophet told the people of Israel that they would be led into the promised land. Most of them actually died in the wilderness.

I find those are very strong Bible proofs that God's promises and threats are alike conditional.

[John317]

I would like to say that Bevin and Gregory have made some very good points. We need to dispel this idea that EGW or any prophet was infallible. They are human and we have to expect error. What we have to do as she instructed us to do is to check all that she says to the word of God. Then we can't go wrong.

Don't forget that some prophets were not human. A donkey can hardly be considered perfect. God will use whatever he needs to use and he will use sinful humans or even unhuman animals to communicate His message.

Happy Sabbath,

Redwood

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But if you're view is that prophets make mistakes in their prophecies and in their writings, you must realize that the same argument can be, and is, made about the Bible prophets. If the Bible prophets are wrong, as you apparently believe, then how can one be sure of anything that they wrote? What good does it do to compare Ellen White's writings with the Bible if the Bible may be wrong as well? Perhaps, according to that way of thinking, the Bible made a mistake and Ellen White is correcting it.

Do you believe that Jesus also made a mistake in his teaching or perhaps that the Gospel writers made a mistake in what they recorded?

I completely agree that the Bible is the sole standard of doctrine and faith, and therefore I also believe in comparing Ellen White's writings with Scripture. The reason we can compare Ellen White or anyone else with the Bible is that the prophets of the Bible did not make mistakes in their writing. In other words, our human judgment is not superior to the Bible and should not be used to determine what is right and what is error. We are to take the whole Bible, not pick and choose what we think is true or not. John 317

[Woody]

John 317 ... you have made some good points and I agree with them.

I would just say that I do not believe everything that any prophet has said . The prophets were not beyond error in all that they said and did.

The difference with Ellen White is that a larger scope of what she did and said is recorded. I do not believe Ellen White to have been infallible in all she said and did. Her writings are not all equal to the Bible. What is in the Bible is infallible but the prophets themselves were not infallible. The Bible has been protected by God therefore it is different from the EGW and is infallible. Our understanding of the Bible is what is fallible. The Bible fails us because the Holy Spirit is not getting through to us. But the Bible is the Word of God. Ellen White is not the Word of God. Some of Ellen White might perhaps be the word of God. But also some is fallible.

You could make the argument that this vision of certain people alive and waiting for the coming of Christ was conditional upon certain circumstances but if so ... she did not indicate that. Therefore either she was in error when she talked to the angels OR we have not been lead by the Spirit to correctly understand. Just as we are not alway lead correctly to understand the Scriptures.

[bevin]

Quote:

The difference with Ellen White is that a larger scope of what she did and said is recorded

This is a key point. Obviously a lot of what Paul, Luke, etc wrote has been lost - otherwise I am sure we would find significant errors there also.

Quote:

What is in the Bible is infallible but the prophets themselves were not infallible. The Bible has been protected by God therefore it is different from the EGW and is infallible. Our understanding of the Bible is what is fallible.

I disagree. What is in the Bible is perfect FOR ITS PURPOSE - but not perfect if abused for other purposes.

/Bevin

[Woody]

Bevin I am not sure what I've said that you disagree with. I agree with your statement ...

"What is in the Bible is perfect FOR ITS PURPOSE - but not perfect if abused for other purposes"

I personally don't see a conflict with you said and what I said.

Good work. I appreciate hearing your comments.

[David Koot]

These words were spoken to her by an angel in vision.

[Woody]

David ... You asked "Thank-you for that clarification. So, all that EGW did was report what the angel told her. Hence my question: Are you suggesting that the angel was wrong?"

I would propose two possiblities ...

One is that Ellen White was wrong about what she heard and therefore relayed it incorrectly or incompletely to us.

The other is that WE don't understand fully what the angel or Ellen White meant. It is just like the Bible ... there is good in the Bible but we do not always have agreement as to what it says or means.

[Gregory Matthews]

David, you have made a point in response to my comment. IL appreciate your doing so.

My comment is valid in amore general way than what my post indicated.

[David Koot]

One is that Ellen White was wrong about what she heard and therefore relayed it incorrectly or incompletely to us.

[David Koot]

The interesting comparison is that Jude, under inspiration, quoted from the book of Enoch.

Did he quote from the book of Enoch, or did he quote Enoch? Those are two different things.

[Dr. Shane]

I have not read the Book of Enoch but from what I understand, the quote in Jude is a direct quote taken from the Book of Enoch.

I always thought Ellen White taught there would be a special election just before Jesus comes and all of those that died spreading the Three Angels Message (that's us) would be raised from the dead and thus be alive when Jesus returned. So that would mean that she and others that lived with her will be alive when Jesus comes.

[Guest]

I would like to ask you about this material mistake she made ... that those people in the room would be alive and see Jesus come in the clouds. That prophecy did not come true. Are you saying that her prophecy was conditional?

[David Koot]

I have not read the Book of Enoch but from what I understand, the quote in Jude is a direct quote taken from the Book of Enoch.

[Woody]

In 1 T p.132 Ellen Was shown by an angel in vision that SOME would die but SOME would REMAIN alive and see the coming of Christ. The way I see it she was not talking about these people in the Conference with her as ever experiencing death.

Obviously these people DID experience death.

I would concur with David Battler and others that proposed that the ONLY explanation is that what she saw was CONDITIONAL. That if the people repented and accepted GOD that the coming of Jesus was that near. Obviously the people did not do that.

I have to confess that I am somewhat skeptical of the idea of this being conditional since it is not mentioned as being conditional but accept David Battler's explanation on that point as a possibility.

What it does is to make the reading of Ellen White AND the Bible very complicated and difficult for the average brain like mine.

[bevin]

Quote:

Can you give a cite for that?

The great thing about Google is it makes possible the answering of such questions with literally 15 seconds worth of work

http://biblelight.net/assumpt.htm

http://www.faithtodayguide.com/

http://www.christianbeliefs.org/bible/jude.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jude/1.html

/Bevin

[Woody]

Maybe we should have a poll as to how many people believe that everything Ellen White said was truth, inspired and something we should honor and how many think she was fallible ??

What do you think ??

[Clio]

I make no claims or statements regarding the inspiration of the Book of Enoch, but offer these interesting tidbits, quoted from Meridian Magazine in 2001, written by John Pratt.

Quote:

Jesus Christ and his apostles quoted from the Book of Enoch (also called 1 Enoch) as authentic scripture. It was once in the Bible and was accepted as having been written by Enoch himself, the majestic antediluvian prophet who was translated into heaven without tasting death (Heb. 11:5). During the Third and Fourth Centuries AD the book fell into disfavor and was removed from sacred canon, destined to become one of the "lost books" of the Bible. It was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethiopia and is now readily available in English, but is still largely unappreciated. Before looking at the calendar it describes, let us briefly review how it contains doctrines or phrases of the Savior, which are apparently examples of the Savior quoting Enoch.

The one direct quote in the New Testament is by Jude, a brother of Jesus Christ:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1}.)

While that is the only referenced quotation in the Bible, there are many indirect references which involve striking similarities. The scholar and translator R.H. Charles declared, "The influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books taken together."[2] Another expert noted that "Its influence is apparent in no less than 128 places in the New Testament."[3] The following table compares a few from the introduction to Archbishop Richard Laurence's original translation [4], in which the Savior apparently alludes to the Book of Enoch.

Jesus: Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5)

Enoch: The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})

Jesus: the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22).

Enoch:the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})

Jesus: Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24)

Enoch: Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})

More in the article....

Just food for thought.

[Clio]

Post deleted by Clio

[Woody]

Could the person who stated that the Book of Enoch WAS in the Bible PLEASE give me a source for that statement.

I must confess that I am somewhat skeptical about such a claim.

However I am open to it. And would like to know where the claim was found so I could study more.

Thank you very much.