Dance Wear for worship

[John317]

You have some work ahead of you John 317 if you think that dancing is not scriptural.

The New Testament records nothing about dancing in the Christian church.

Study Exodus 32: 6, 19.

The dancing we read of in the Old Testament has nothing to do with the dancing that goes on today.

What do we read about dancing in the writings of Ellen White? Is that relevent?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I am resistent to people who claim that the Seventh-day Adventist church is part of the fallen' date=' Babylonian chruches. That is the claim made by the Seventh-day Adventist Reform [/quote']

Oh good grief. No one made that claim. Just that it's not a particularly loving or demonstrative or meeting the needs of it's members type of a denomination overall.

The focus and emphasis is "OUR DOCTRINE IS RIGHT DOCTRINE BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE BETTER THAN XYZ DENOMINATION" while the members, and anyone not being specifically targeted for conversion suffers in silence.

I never said or implied that anyone on this thread claimed the SDA church has now joined the fallen, Babylonian churches. I merely said that I am resistant to those who do make such an argument and then I gave examples of those who do make the claim.

What I am saying is that if I was convinced that some of the statements and beliefs on ClubAd was representative of the SDA church, I am sorry to say that I would have to agree with those who say the SDA church has fallen away from the truth. But I do not believe that such statements and beliefs are anything but private views and therefore they do not represent the church. The church is represented by the statements that come out of the General Conference, not out of individual conferences or individual leaders or members.

I personally stand by the Bible, the writings of Ellen White, and the official statements of the General Conference regarding our doctrines and our positions.

[John317]

I have an uncle who has just started keeping the Sabbath after being out of the church for over 65 years. His father, my grandpa, was an SDA preacher and evangelist. I am not sure it would be wise to tell him about ClubAdventist. He's been out of touch with Adventist beliefs for such a long time that he would probably be confused by what he sees on these threads. My uncle would see things that might persuade him that Sabbath keeping is not important; that his wife's Baptist church is better and friendlier; that Ellen White is either irrelevant or false; and that Adventist teachings are questionable at best.

The same question arises as regards my 18 year old daughter who was just baptized a little over a year ago.

[there buster]

Quote:

The dancing we read of in the Old Testament has nothing to do with the dancing that goes on today.

This is a problem I call "hardening of the categories." People watch dancing on television, in the movies, or at a disco, and say "This has nothing to do with worship."

Of course it doesn't. But they also play music when they dance; does that mean that "music has nothing to do with worship?" Or only that that music has nothing to do with worship? They may have dancing at a place which also serves food. Would that imply that "eating and drinking have nothing to do with worship?" Then we should do away with communion.

Worshipful dance is not only possible, it can be most reverent and inexpressably beautiful.

Music, speaking, giving money, recitations, reading poetry-- all of these things may be done in a profane way, or in a worshipful way.

God commanded fasting and sacrifices and days of rest; but when people concentrated on the deeds themselves, they got it wrong.

We need to concentrate more on the "how" and less on the "what."

[phkrause]

We had a pastor Alex Schlusser that came to Southern New England campmeeting this past June. He's a Jewish Pastor down in Florida, and he has two church's that he serves. One of them is a traditional church the other is a Jewish Adventist Church. He was telling us that they dance at this jewish church. It sounded pretty interesting. So this february/march when I will be visiting my Mom and going to my neice's wedding down in the Delray/Hollywood area I will visit his church and check it out.

pkrause

[John317]

Quote:

The dancing we read of in the Old Testament has nothing to do with the dancing that goes on today.

This is a problem I call "hardening of the categories." People watch dancing on television, in the movies, or at a disco, and say "This has nothing to do with worship."

Of course it doesn't. But they also play music when they dance; does that mean that "music has nothing to do with worship?" Or only that that music has nothing to do with worship? They may have dancing at a place which also serves food. Would that imply that "eating and drinking have nothing to do with worship?" Then we should do away with communion.

Worshipful dance is not only possible, it can be most reverent and inexpressably beautiful.

Music, speaking, giving money, recitations, reading poetry-- all of these things may be done in a profane way, or in a worshipful way.

God commanded fasting and sacrifices and days of rest; but when people concentrated on the deeds themselves, they got it wrong.

We need to concentrate more on the "how" and less on the "what."

I can agree with a lot that you say here.

I said today's dancing has nothing to do with the dancing in the Old Testament because many people think today's dancing is similar to what the OT is describing. But there is a big difference between the two types of dancing and also between their contexts.

For one thing, in the synagogue, the worshipers were segregated according to sex, just as they are among the Muslim worshipers. When they danced, there was nothing sexual because the men danced together and the women danced together. You did not have men dancing with women as you have today. There is no trace of public female dances, which only occur in the Bible among the heathen, such as Herodias. It also happened at Sinai, as recorded in Exodus 32.

Ancient Hebrew dances were more like processions with men and women separated into groups in which all who took part marched in time to the hymns which they sung. Ps. 30:11; 68:25; Judges 11:34; Jer. 31:13; Judges 21:19-23.

When the Psalms refers to dancing in praise and worship of God, it is not the kind of dancing that is done today where men are concentrating on the graceful, beautiful bodies of girls and women. People's thoughts are not directed heavenward by such dancing but are driven earthward and do not become more holy but rather less holy by it. If it was otherwise, we could particularly expect the New Testament to be full of praises for the exalted thoughts brought about through the dance. But the New Testament is totally silent on the subject.

Finally, what do the writings of Ellen White say about dancing?

[gina i]

Really? 'Cause the SDA church I belong to is pretty full of love & loving people.

Ouch.

[there buster]

Quote:

in the synagogue, the worshipers were segregated according to sex,

Hebrew dance far predates the synagogue, which did not come about until the exile.

And Miriam and the Israelite women danced in a very public way in Ex. 15, the Song of Moses.

What Ellen WHite said about dance would have to be properly exegeted. Did she in fact speak deprecatingly about the dance of Miriam? or about the waltzes and dances of her own time?

Here's from Patriarchs and Prophets concerning Miriam's dance:

Quote:

Like the voice of the great deep, rose from the vast hosts of Israel that sublime ascription. It was taken up by the women of Israel, Miriam, the sister of Moses, leading the way, as they went

289

forth with timbrel and dance. Far over desert and sea rang the joyous refrain, and the mountains re-echoed the words of their praise--"Sing ye to Jehovah, for He hath triumphed gloriously."

This song and the great deliverance which it commemorates, made an impression never to be effaced from the memory of the Hebrew people. From age to age it was echoed by the prophets and singers of Israel, testifying that Jehovah is the strength and deliverance of those who trust in Him. That song does not belong to the Jewish people alone. It points forward to the destruction of all the foes of righteousness and the final victory of the Israel of God. The prophet of Patmos beholds the white-robed multitude that have "gotten the victory," standing on the "sea of glass mingled with fire," having "the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3.

Looks approving to me.

[Woody]

Really ?!!

Gina ...

Which kinds of people are they loving and caring for??. I can appreciate that they are loving to those who are able to attend. But, I would be interested to hear about what kind of love they show to those who can't attend.

Do they place judgment upon those wanting to be baptised?

What happens if they happen to come across sin in their lives. Does the church continue to love them or does the church sit in judgment of them. Has the church censured its members? What about disfellowship. If someone has a sexual sin in their life ... does the church sit in judgment of them?

How is the church meeting the needs of its sinners? Is it doing it with love.

These are just a few questions that I have.

Mostly I would love to hear from you a few examples of the kind of love and caring you have witnessed at this church. Can you name any innovative ministries that this church has. I would love to learn about different innovative ways to reach the less fortunate. The needs of sinners are top on my list. I want to help them.

The social ellite will experience plenty of support. The healthy will experience plenty of love and caring. I want to reach those who are falling through the cracks. What is your church doing to reach those kinds of people.

What does your church do for those who are not able to attend regularly because of health or disability. Do they send bulletins or sermon tapes. Do they have visitation? Is your church handicapped friendly? OR are these people just forgotten in favor of the healthy ones both spiritually and physically?

I hope you are not offended with my questions. I am seriously searching. Which reminds me. What about those who are seekers. Does the church have programs that reach people who are not used to CHURCH and all its formal ways. Does it have a seekers service that is more relevant to them. OR does the church just expect them to immediately FIT in.

WELL ... I could go on and on. But I would love to hear what your church IS doing that you see as loving.

[gina i]

Redwood, I take no offense at all.. I guess maybe I am naive? I mean, no church is perfect.. Not a non denominational, not a baptist church - I think all churches are in the same boat, I guess that's why I was a little taken aback at your comment. And not just yours, but a lot of people on here who constantly talk bad about the SDA church, not saying you are, just an observation:) I've only been going to an SDA church for 6 years.

Personally? I think that my church needs a lot of work, a LOT. It's sort of dead, the same old stuff is recycled, etc. But there is a lot of love - to me. Maybe not to others.

My husband & myself head up something called Mercy Ministries to help the less fortunate.. to me that's love?

But I understand your question is maybe what about the sinners (okay we are all sinners!) inside the church? I know some people shun others for what they've done - but I know a lot of people who take these people under their wing & try to help them.

What is sad to me is that a lot of people who turn away from the church - from experiences that I've seen - they automatically become defensive & say "Well I know they will be judgemental, so I'm not coming to church."

Sad, because in reality our church is the first place we should go to when we are in NEED.. but this is not the case, because of the judgement.

As for seekers, that's something to think about I guess. I never really thought about it that much - thanks for pointing that out.

There is a group at our church that visit the shut ins, yes, if that is what you mean & it is handicapped friendly as far as I can tell.

[Woody]

Thank you Gina for your good remarks. Sounds like you are doing all you can to create a loving atmosphere in and outside your church.

When we look closely at our church it is a risk because we may sound harsh and critical. But, I think it is healthy to critically look at where we are going wrong and where we can improve.

I know there is a risk that others will be offended and hurt at the criticism of their church. But we do have needs in our churches. We do need to improve our church. And dialogue is the only way to start that.

So ... I really do appreciate your comments. Thank you.

My purpose is that we look at the needs of ALL people. I do not believe we are doing an adaquate job of that currently. Some of it is due to church policy and practices that we can't change locally. But there is much that I think we can do better.

Thanks for the dialogue.

[Woody]

Regarding "The dancing we read of in the Old Testament has nothing to do with the dancing that goes on today."

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John317 Can we move you as far as saying that the type of OT dancing would be acceptable to you ??

Then once we got you to go that far ... perhaps we could get you to help outline the principles of what made dance acceptable so that we could establish guidelines for dance. I would like to immediately start to work on compromise so that we wouldn't have to be stuck with the OT model.

Could we start with saying that the underwear is OUT ... or should we say the underwear is to be IN. We could establish a whole set of rules to abide by. But, It would seem that we are missing out on a blessing that the OT christians had. Perhaps getting back to it would help stimulate our old dead church worship services.

[gina i]

My purpose is that we look at the needs of ALL people. I do not believe we are doing an adaquate job of that currently. Some of it is due to church policy and practices that we can't change locally. But there is much that I think we can do better.

Thanks for the dialogue.

I don't think any of us can argue with the fact that the church needs to look at the needs of ALL people. This is so true.

[John317]

Quote:

in the synagogue, the worshipers were segregated according to sex,

Quote:

Hebrew dance far predates the synagogue, which did not come about until the exile.

True, but the men still did not dance with the women, and the women were not dancing in a public way to give pleasure to the men. All the dancing was actually marching in time with the hymns being sung to God. The body was not moving around in ways to be enticing to men. That is what happens in modern dance, even the dancing I've seen in church. At the Hill Church, as I said before, the young women actually had their panties in view under their see-through dresses, and much of the congregation was dancing in place and didn't seem to mind at all what they were seeing.

Quote:

And Miriam and the Israelite women danced in a very public way in Ex. 15, the Song of Moses.

They danced in a public way, but it was only the women who "danced" and they were singing praises to God. It was not a public dance in the sense that they were dancing to give pleasure for the men. That is what happens in public dancing such as occurred before Herod and at Sinai. In Exodus 15, there were no men dancing with the women, and the dancing was not of such a character that brought attention to their bodies such as the modern dance does. In modern dance, the emphasis is upon the movements of the body. By the way, compare Exodus 15 with the celebration and dancing in Exodus 31:6, 19.

Quote:

What Ellen WHite said about dance would have to be properly exegeted. Did she in fact speak deprecatingly about the dance of Miriam? or about the waltzes and dances of her own time?

Yes, I agree that it needs to be properly exegeted. I see nothing in her writings or in the New Testament that could be interpreted to mean that the church should have women dancing up on the platform for the men to watch or that women should be dancing in church with men.

Quote:

Here's from Patriarchs and Prophets concerning Miriam's dance:

Quote:

Like the voice of the great deep, rose from the vast hosts of Israel that sublime ascription. It was taken up by the women of Israel, Miriam, the sister of Moses, leading the way, as they went

289

forth with timbrel and dance. Far over desert and sea rang the joyous refrain, and the mountains re-echoed the words of their praise--"Sing ye to Jehovah, for He hath triumphed gloriously."

This song and the great deliverance which it commemorates, made an impression never to be effaced from the memory of the Hebrew people. From age to age it was echoed by the prophets and singers of Israel, testifying that Jehovah is the strength and deliverance of those who trust in Him. That song does not belong to the Jewish people alone. It points forward to the destruction of all the foes of righteousness and the final victory of the Israel of God. The prophet of Patmos beholds the white-robed multitude that have "gotten the victory," standing on the "sea of glass mingled with fire," having "the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb." Revelation 15:2, 3.

Looks approving to me.

Of course. What's not to approve?

1) No mention of men dancing with women; the women alone were singing and dancing, which was another way of saying they were marching or keeping time to the songs of praise to God;

2) No mention of the women going up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements;

3) The emphasis is upon the singing--"the song"-- and the words of praise to God for deliverance, not on the movements of their bodies as in modern dance.

[there buster]

Quote:

No mention of the women going up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements;

"no mention of" is simply the argument from silence. It is a weak argument, because it is just as true to say that "there is no mention that they did not" whatever.

Let me understand you. Is it your position that the dance in Exodus 15 was somehow in private, and not witnessed by the rest of the people? If so how could Miriam have been "leading forth, with timbrel and with dance?"

Was she leading in secret? Was she leading forth with timbrel publicly, but dancing secretly?

Were they able to hear her sing, but unable to see her dance?

If they could not see her dance, how did they know she was dancing?

Was she, perhaps, leading without followers?

If the women were dancing alone, in secret, how could it be that it made "made an impression never to be effaced from the memory of the Hebrew people?"

It's a fascinating idea, this leading forth in secret.

You say that in modern dance, "he emphasis is upon the movements of the body." Does that mean that in the OT, they danced without moving their bodies? How is that done? If we don't see body movements, how do we know they're dancing?

Another fascinating idea, motionless dancing.

[Woody]

Ed ... Thank you for your comments.

Perhaps for John 317 .... "motionless dancing" is all that HE can handle. Some people are not able to handle seeing the creation of God . They believe that what God created is somehow "evil" and not to be shown. Perhaps he is just tempted more than others. And if that is the case ... it would not be wise for him to see anything other than "motionless dancing".

We do need to be respectful of him and allow him to not attend if that is the case. But ... the rest of us who don't have a problem with God's created beings ... we should be able to see it.

He might do well to move to Afganistan. The women there are well covered with their Burkas. I don't have a problem with people who believe as John does. That is where they are at and that is fine.

[John317]

Quote:

No mention of the women going up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements;

What the Bible does not say can be very significant. If you are saying that the women did go up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beautify of their bodies' movements, it seems to me that the burden of proof would be on you. There is certainly no indication that they did this. The reason that is important is that this is what happens today in modern dance, and my position is that the dancing in the Bible was different from the way it is conducted today.

It appears to me based on the Bible and Ellen White's description of what happened in Exodus 15 that the dancing was spontaneous and that only the women were involved, separately from the men. In other words, the men were not dancing with them, and the women were marching in time with the music. That is not the way modern dancing takes place, nor is it anything like that which takes place when women of today dance before men.

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Let me understand you. Is it your position that the dance in Exodus 15 was somehow in private, and not witnessed by the rest of the people? If so how could Miriam have been "leading forth, with timbrel and with dance?"

To your first question, no, of course not.

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Was she leading in secret? Was she leading forth with timbrel publicly, but dancing secretly?

No, she was not leading secretly. The timbrel was heard and the dancing was seen by anyone there.

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Were they able to hear her sing, but unable to see her dance?

If they could not see her dance, how did they know she was dancing?

They were both able to hear her sing and to see her dancing along with the other women who were singing praises to God for their deliverance.

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Was she, perhaps, leading without followers?

No, my friend, she was not. The Bible clearly states in Exodus 15:20 that she was followed by the other women.

Quote:

If the women were dancing alone, in secret, how could it be that it made "made an impression never to be effaced from the memory of the Hebrew people?"

It's a fascinating idea, this leading forth in secret.

But I never said she did any of those things in secret. Here is what I said: "They danced in a public way, but it was only the women who 'danced' and they were singing praises to God. It was not a public dance in the sense that they were not dancing to give pleasure for the men. That is what happens in public dancing such as occurred before Herod and at Sinai. In Exodus 15, there were no men dancing with the women, and the dancing was not of such a character that brought attention to their bodies such as the modern dance does. In modern dance, the emphasis is upon the movements of the body. By the way, compare Exodus 15 with the celebration and dancing in Exodus 31:6, 19."

Quote:

You say that in modern dance, "he emphasis is upon the movements of the body."

Yes, it is. Ask any teacher of modern dance. See, for instance, the dances of Martha Graham (Graham, Martha(1893–1991), U.S. dancer, teacher, and choreographer. She evolved a new dance language using more flexible movements intended to express psychological complexities and emotional power.) or study the dance in any modern context. What I am saying is the dances of the Hebrews which the Bible speaks of in positive terms did not emphasize this aspect. I am only going by what I read in Scripture and in what Ellen White says about the kind of dances in those times.

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Does that mean that in the OT, they danced without moving their bodies? How is that done? If we don't see body movements, how do we know they're dancing?

Another fascinating idea, motionless dancing.

Of course they moved their bodies. They marched in time to the music and glorious, spiritual hymns they were singing. The body's movements were not sexual but were of such a nature as to cause men to think only of praising God, not to focus on women's bodies. This kind of dancing the men of the world would find boring.

Here again is what I am saying if you care to read it:

1) No mention of men dancing with women; the women alone were singing and dancing, which was another way of saying they were marching or keeping time to the songs of praise to God;

2) No mention of the women going up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements, such as happened when Herodias danced in order to please Herod (Mark 6:22);

3) The emphasis is upon the singing--"the song"-- and the words of praise to God for deliverance, not on the movements of their bodies as in modern dance.

[John317]

Ed ... Thank you for your comments.

Perhaps for John 317 .... "motionless dancing" is all that HE can handle. Some people are not able to handle seeing the creation of God . They believe that what God created is somehow "evil" and not to be shown. Perhaps he is just tempted more than others. And if that is the case ... it would not be wise for him to see anything other than "motionless dancing".

You are misreading me, I'm afraid. It really has nothing to do with what I personally can handle. Truth is there is an almost overwhelming power that sexual attraction has for most men. I am thinking of the sin that women cause a man to commit when they dance for their physical pleasure. If a husband and wife want to do these things in private, there would be nothing wrong with it; but for men to watch other women doing those things, it can only bring about sinful desires. The Bible rightly says the heart is exceedingly wicked and who can know it? We're wise not to try and fool ourselves or each other about this.

"Motionless dancing" is your term, not mine. I never used it nor did I imply that the dancing in the Bible is "motionless." Since you insist on putting words in my keyboard that I did not say, here is what I did say:

Of course they moved their bodies. They marched in time to the music and glorious, spiritual hymns they were singing. The body's movements were not sexual but were of such a nature as to cause men to think only of praising God, not to focus on women's bodies. This kind of dancing the men of the world would find boring.

Here again is what I am saying if you care to read it:

1) The men were not dancing with women; the women alone were singing and dancing, which was another way of saying they were marching or keeping time to the songs of praise to God;

2) No mention of the women going up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements, such as happened when Herodias danced in order to please Herod (Mark 6:22);

3) The emphasis is upon the singing--"the song"-- and the words of praise to God for deliverance, not on the movements of their bodies as in modern dance.

Quote:

We do need to be respectful of him and allow him to not attend if that is the case. But ... the rest of us who don't have a problem with God's created beings ... we should be able to see it.

Thank you, very much. I sincerely do appreciate your thoughtfulness here. However, it is not a matter of whether anyone "has a problem" with God's created beings (i.e., women). The problem rather is with our fallen natures and the power of the temptations when women get up on a platform and are doing their best to impress men with the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements. Women naturally have a tendency to try to please men. It is easy for women to fall into that mindset and for men to use them as sex objects. It's an explosive combination. Just because it is a dance in church and is about a religious subject does not mean that men and women will not fall into sinful ways of thinking and behaving. We do well to consider the fact that throughout our history SDAs have not had dancing in our church serves. It is also well to consider that the Christian church has generally prohibited dances in church since very early times in its history. And now, a short time before Jesus comes, the popular call seems to be to have dances in our churches. Is this perhaps part of the fulfillment of 1 Timothy 3:4,5 where it says that in the last days men will be lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they deny its power? Please notice that Paul here speaks of people in the church.

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He might do well to move to Afganistan. The women there are well covered with their Burkas.

No, thank you, I'll stay here if it's OK with you. But I would like to point out here if I may that you are descibing people similar in custom and dress to the people of Bible times. Would most men today be interested in seeing a Bible type of dance by women dressed as they were and under the circumstances as described in the Bible?

[there buster]

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What the Bible does not say can be very significant.

The Bible does not say anything about smoking.

The Bible does not say anything about computers.

The Bible does not say anything about church buildings.

The Bible does not say anything about airplanes.

The Bible does not say anything about church elections.

The Bible does not say anything about television.

The Bible does not say anything about meat analogs.

The list is nearly infinite.

Tell me, are all of these silences significant? If so, what do they mean? If not, how do we tell which ones are significant?

How can one determine when silence favors a position, or when it argues against a position?

[there buster]

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What the Bible does not say can be very significant. If you are saying that the women did go up in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beautify of their bodies' movements, it seems to me that the burden of proof would be on you.

If you are saying they did not dance in front of the men so that they could appreciate the gracefulness and beauty of their bodies' movements, it seems to me that the burden of proof would be on you.

Last time I checked gracefulness and beauty came from God, and have no necessary connection with human sexuality.

Sometimes, watching a basketball or football game, I see actions of incredible grace and beauty by the players--but it doesn't excite me sexually.

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There is certainly no indication that they did this.

It's your marching about and not drawing attention to the movements that is imposed upon the text. The ideas that they "led forth" and "made an impression" and "danced" all come directly from the text.

[David Koot]

I haven't been following this thread particularly, but happened to read a few of the recent posts this morning. Some time ago, I did a study on 'dance' in the O.T. Indeed, the Hebrew words, and the cultural practice, according to the students whom I reviewed, were different than our contemporary concepts of dance. There were several specific types of physical activities engaged in by the Hebrews, none of which would be thought of as 'dancing' today, I think. That is in contradistinction to other ANE peoples, who did engage in what we would call 'dancing' modernly.

Dave

[Woody]

John 317 ... If I misrepresented your beliefs ... I apologize.

I think the bottom line is that you have some type of sensitivity for women dancing. And I appreciate and respect that. But I do not believe that all men are as you have outlined. I for one would appreciate the OT dancing.

Sinful sexual desires are wrong. But I am a married mand and I am commited to my wife. I do not share the same degree of temptations that you have described. I would not be tempted to want sex with some women who was doing a religious dance at church. Since you are ... it would not be wise for you to attend that service. But, please don't impose your issues with the rest of us.

REDWOOD

[Woody]

Ed ... You are still over the limit so I guess I will just have to give up writing you a PM.

REDWOOD

[bevin]

Quote:

Another fascinating idea, motionless dancing

Did they have to do this where they could not been seen, or can one dance without moving in public?

That might be the solution to introducing dance into the more staid SDA congregations - anyone who wants to can dance provided they don't move.

You could tell who the dancers are by the special clothes they would wear while not moving. These special clothes can be bought from the URL at the top of this thread

/Bevin

[there buster]

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