Dance Wear for worship

[Woody]

Bevin ... you are so right.

Our churches really need this motionless dancing.

It may wake up our dead church services.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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Another fascinating idea, motionless dancing

Did they have to do this where they could not been seen, or can one dance without moving in public?

That might be the solution to introducing dance into the more staid SDA congregations - anyone who wants to can dance provided they don't move.

You could tell who the dancers are by the special clothes they would wear while not moving. These special clothes can be bought from the URL at the top of this thread

/Bevin

There could be special responsibilities listed for deacons in the church manual for manipulating fans at the motionless dancers..

[John317]

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John 317: What the Bible does not say can be very significant.

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Ed: The Bible does not say anything about smoking.

The Bible does not say anything about computers.

The Bible does not say anything about church buildings.

The Bible does not say anything about airplanes.

The Bible does not say anything about church elections.

The Bible does not say anything about television.

The Bible does not say anything about meat analogs.

The list is nearly infinite.

Doubtless.

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Tell me, are all of these silences significant?

Not terribly, I should think.

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If so, what do they mean?

The Bible's silence in regard to the list you offer above means absolutely nothing beyond the fact that the Bible was written before those things were invented or before ecclesia began to be used of a building rather than of people.

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If not, how do we tell which ones are significant?

None of those silences above, so far as I can tell, have any significance whatsoever.

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How can one determine when silence favors a position, or when it argues against a position?

Please explain how you would answer your question about silence as it relates to the following: Some argue that it means something quite definite that the Bible is silent about people keeping the Sabbath between Gen. 3 and Exodus 16. Others argue the same point as regards the fact that the New Testament does not contain a specific command to keep the Sabbath. Still others argue a similar point based on the fact that Acts 15 does not specify the weekly Sabbath as binding on Christians.

I once had an atheistic friend who claimed that the fact that the Bible is apparently silent on the subject of airplanes and TV and such things was proof that the Bible did not originate with God. He had the wrong concept of the Bible. Why? Because he was ignoring the fact that the Bible contains clear principles that can be applied to things that the Bible is silent about, such as smoking, TV, etc., i.e., things that require us to make moral judgments. And I would argue that the Bible contains examples, texts, and principles that should be applied also to dancing. God has not left us in the dark on this important subject.

[there buster]

I think I speak for all of us when I say that "fan dancing" would not be acceptable.

[John317]

Bevin ... you are so right.

Our churches really need this motionless dancing.

It may wake up our dead church services.

That's hilarious, Redwood. No kidding.

But seriously, I think the Holy Spirit alone in our church services would be enough to "wake them up". I've been in some churches where it was very lively but I sincerely doubt it was because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't you agree that you could hire people to come in and make everything really noisy and busy and exciting, but might it not all result from the human will rather than from God? So, what I am saying is that what is needed in our church services are the Holy Spirit and the heavenly angels. How can our churches experience more of the Holy Spirit? Will dancing do it? I'm serious.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

**laughs behind hand**

sorry....'twas my wayward sense of humor which took over for a minute

[Woody]

Regarding :"But seriously, I think the Holy Spirit alone in our church services would be enough to "wake them up". I've been in some churches where it was very lively but I sincerely doubt it was because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't you agree that you could hire people to come in and make everything really noisy and busy and exciting, but might it not all result from the human will rather than from God? So, what I am saying is that what is needed in our church services are the Holy Spirit and the heavenly angels. How can our churches experience more of the Holy Spirit? Will dancing do it? I'm serious."

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John 317 I would like to say that I appreciate your good nature and for not being upset. We have had a great deal of fun at your expense with this "motionless dancing". And you have taken it well.

To be serious ... I do agree with what you have said here. A lot of noise will not always help. But I think that dancing CAN be a blessing if it is done right. For you it might not be a blessing. But I think for others ... it can bring the Holy Spirit closer to them. I don't think we need to discount the method that will help some. We are all different. I would not want to push you to worship in my way. But in return ... don't discount my needs also.

Let each one judge for himself

[there buster]

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Please explain how you would answer your question about silence as it relates to the following:

Some argue that it means something quite definite that the Bible is silent about people keeping the Sabbath between Gen. 3 and Exodus 16.

Others argue the same point as regards the fact that the New Testament does not contain a specific command to keep the Sabbath.

Still others argue a similar point based on the fact that Acts 15 does not specify the weekly Sabbath as binding on Christians.

But this is too easy. They are all equally weak. Just as yours was. Not least because it can be argued both ways.

That's my point. The argument from silence is very weak.

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And I would argue that the Bible contains examples, texts, and principles that should be applied also to dancing.

Quite so. And the examples in Exodus 15, Psa. 149 and 150, and 2 Sam 6 all support the idea of dance as part of worship.

That there are contrary examples, such as Salome, only argues that not all types of dance are wholesome. But then, that is true of sermons, prayers, songs, and rssponsive readings. Not all of them are wholesome.

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God has not left us in the dark on this important subject.

Precisely. That's why we have examples of wholesome dance.

[bevin]

My wife and I went to the local Church of the Nazarene for their annual Christmas program that they put on as a gift to the community.

There was indeed dancing performed by the angels and by the teenage girls

If you thought it was any more sexual than women walking through a supermarket, you have a problem

/Bevin

[Woody]

Good Point Bevin. When a man goes through the Supermarket he can get a lot more looks at women than dancing at church.

My point is that GOD can come into your heart so that you are so filled with love for your wife that seeing a women dancing in church is not a temptation. I do not believe that most Christians are tempted as John 317 describes. He obviously has a problem in this area and perhaps should not attend dancing in church and probably should not go to the supermarket either.

Please John 317 don't be offended. I don't mean to criticize you. I feel that we all have different temptations and if yours is dancing women then you have to protect yourself. I would love to hear though ... how do you manage at the market?

REDWOOD

[there buster]

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But seriously, I think the Holy Spirit alone in our church services would be enough to "wake them up". I've been in some churches where it was very lively but I sincerely doubt it was because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Wouldn't you agree that you could hire people to come in and make everything really noisy and busy and exciting, but might it not all result from the human will rather than from God? So, what I am saying is that what is needed in our church services are the Holy Spirit and the heavenly angels. How can our churches experience more of the Holy Spirit? Will dancing do it? I'm serious.

I know you are serious. It may not be apparent, but I'm serious, too.

Let me say that I don't think that you "have a problem" with watching women's bodies. To the degree that's been implied, I think it's wrong and inflammatory.

I do think you're too fixated on bad types of dancing, and probably have not experience truly worshipful dance.

It is certainly true that the presence of the Holy Spirit is what our churches need. It is likewise true that "dancing won't do it." But that doesn't mean that worshipful dance might not help.

After all, these dead churches already have preaching, praying, and singing. They don't "do it," either, obviously, or these churches wouldn't be dead.

As I said earlier, we need to concentrate more on "how" than on "what."

There will be singing, praising, and dancing in heaven. So the question is not whether to do these things, but how.

I'm going to start another thread to deal with "real worship."

[Woody]

I have good news. Hyveth Williams spoke today at Andrews Seminary and I am happy to report to you that she did not Dance like was previously reported in her church.

[Clio]

I think I speak for all of us when I say that "fan dancing" would not be acceptable.

Erhm... Would that be dancing with fans, fans that dance, or motionless fan dancing????

[Woody]

I would like to see the fans motionless.

I know when I go to football games ... the fans are not motionless. They do the fan all across the stadium.

But when it comes to church ... I think all the fans should be motionless.

[there buster]

I would guess you usually get your wish.

[Woody]

Ed ... you are right. Most of our churches are Dead. A little more praising the Lord would lift all of our spirits.

I think that the more we can show "spirit" ... be it by raising your hands or saying a hearty AMEN ... participation by the congregation is inspiring. I would not feel comfortable with the congregation (fans) standing up and dancing. But I think that watching a worshipful dance would be an organized way to praise God.

I would like to hear more suggestions on ways to make worship more "spiritful" and inspiring. I definately think Dance is one way. But, I think there has to be other innovative ways.

The other side issue is how to make it participatory?

[John317]

John 317 ... If I misrepresented your beliefs ... I apologize.

I think the bottom line is that you have some type of sensitivity for women dancing. And I appreciate and respect that. But I do not believe that all men are as you have outlined. I for one would appreciate the OT dancing.

Sinful sexual desires are wrong. But I am a married mand and I am commited to my wife. I do not share the same degree of temptations that you have described. I would not be tempted to want sex with some women who was doing a religious dance at church. Since you are ... it would not be wise for you to attend that service. But, please don't impose your issues with the rest of us.

REDWOOD

I am thinking of the issue from the Biblical viewpoint and not from my own personal viewpoint. I have no wish to impose anything on anyone. I am simply reminded that Jesus said looking on a woman or a man in order to lust after them is a sin. The fact is that most happily married men find it still possible to have lustful thoughts about a dancing, attactive woman. Perhaps it's true as you say that you wouldn't entertain such thoughts, but you may be sure that a good number of other men would. If we say that wouldn't happen, we are fooling ourselves. My "issues" are simply a lot of experience and Bible study that tell me there's a good reason that dancing was found neither in the New Testament church nor in the historic Seventh-day Adventist church from the time of its founding until a few years ago.

[John317]

I have good news. Hyveth Williams spoke today at Andrews Seminary and I am happy to report to you that she did not Dance like was previously reported in her church.

If you are referring to a report I wrote about dancing in the Loma Linda Hill Church, you may remember that I never said Hyveth Williams herself danced. There were about 5 young ladies dancing on the podium in see-through dresses which did not conceal their panties, and while they danced, a good many other people in the congregation danced in place and had big happy smiles on their faces as they watched the women jump and twist about.

[John317]

Good Point Bevin. When a man goes through the Supermarket he can get a lot more looks at women than dancing at church.

My point is that GOD can come into your heart so that you are so filled with love for your wife that seeing a women dancing in church is not a temptation. I do not believe that most Christians are tempted as John 317 describes. He obviously has a problem in this area and perhaps should not attend dancing in church and probably should not go to the supermarket either.

Please John 317 don't be offended. I don't mean to criticize you. I feel that we all have different temptations and if yours is dancing women then you have to protect yourself. I would love to hear though ... how do you manage at the market?

REDWOOD

No, I am not offended. I think it's a good discussion. I'm not so easily upset.

You misunderstand me if you think I have some special temptation from dancing women that most men don't experience.

I think you would agree with me that many men find it fairly easy to lust in their hearts when looking at a beautiful young woman who is showing off her graceful limbs in dance. The question is why would anyone think that it is God's plan for such a tempation to be set before the worshiper in God's church?

I manage well in the market because I always keep Jesus in my thoughts and I don't trust myself. I haven't always done this. I've learned hard lessons through years of experience.

You must not realize that many, even of SDA men, are addicted, or have been addicted, to pornography. Maybe you do realize this but if you do, I would think you would write differently on this subject than you have written above. Is your heart not one of those the Bible includes among those human hearts that are exceedingly wicked? Wouldn't you agree that it's a fool indeed who trusts his own heart?

[Woody]

Thank you John 317 for your good comments.

I think that many of your points here are well taken.

I personally do not find it a temptation because I do not look on women with the intent to lust as you have indicated below.

"I am simply reminded that Jesus said looking on a woman or a man in order to lust after them is a sin."

I am very committed to my wife. I would not fall to the temptation to have sex with some women I saw at church let alone someone in the market. If this was a temptation ... It would not be safe to go to the market.

Like I have said ... it is probably not a good idea for you with your belief to attend this church. For those that don't find it a temptation to go to the market ... this would probably be a safe church to attend.