Illegals Kill 45,000 US citizens post 9-11

[gina i]

I'm kind of bewildered at some of the tone here. First of all, I am all for it being a free country. Second of all.. California, Nevada, Arizona, Texas.. If I recall all belonged to the Mexicans in the first place, true or not?

I don't live in the US anymore, but I lived in California and how many of those 'darn' illegals did the jobs that no one else wanted to do? I mean good for them for wanting a better life for their families. The picture the media paints is sad - and what's even more sad is that people believe the media and their statistics.

[gina i]

And what about the burden of all those people who don't need to be on welfare, who are perfectly capable of doing NORMAL JOBS.. Now that is something to be concerned about. Perhaps the illegals can teach them a thing or two about work ethic.

[cricket]

El problema es que Redwood es demasiado gringo. Pero Dios lo ama a él todavía. Pero los Estados Unidos es tan para todos y no solo una raza.

Beautifully put!

[Stan]

These kinds of threads can get nasty if left alone..

Would like to see some conversations on what can be done to point them to a land who's builder and maker is a living God.

A place where even on earth, we transfer our citizenship to.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

California, Nevada, Arizona, Texas.. If I recall all belonged to the Mexicans in the first place, true or not?

Actually, six flags have flown over Texas: the Fleur-de-lis of France, the national flags of Spain, Mexico, the Republic of Texas, the Confederate States of America, and the United States of America. Mexico lost Texas in war. It was not populated by the hispanic population of Mexico today. It was settled primarily by white Americans and Europeans settlers. As part of Mexico, they had a representative voice in the Mexican government. In 1835 Santa Anna, President of Mexico, abolished Mexico's Constitution and along with it freedom of religion, speech and thought. Texas also lost its representative voice in government. Texas asked the United States if it could become part of the US and the US Congress said NO! The US did not want war with Mexico. So Texas stood on its own, fought and won a war of independence against Mexico. The Republic of Texas was its own nation from 1836 to 1845 when the US Congress finally admitted it. That was followed by a war between the US and Mexico in which the US won California, Arizona and New Mexico. The moral of the story is that all this territory would have remained as part of Mexico if President Santa Anna hadn't trashed the Constitution and taken away Texas' representation. Another important point is that the border between Mexico and the US remained open for many years after the war. Families were not torn apart. People were free to move and immirgrate as they pleased.

The idea that Mexico today has a right to the American southwest becuase of history is like claiming that Great Brittian has a right to America or Portugul has a right to Brazil because of history. Let's not even discuss the history of Poland.

[Dr. Shane]

The issue of illegals in the church is something different congregations deal with differently. I don't know of any Adventist pastors that encourage illegals to buy property and settle down here, although I suspect some do. Many hispanic churches in the US do ask if a person is here legally before nominating them to a position in the church. Illegals are baptized and allowed to be members but not hold positions in the church. However other churches have no issue with illegals holding positions. I knew one church that had an illegal as its head elder. He was deported and came back illegally again. Eventually he found a US citizen to marry got his papers that way.

The hispanic churches in the US are growing a faster rate than their white counterparts. Much of that growth is because the culture itself is more receptive to religion and the Adventist members are not embarassed to share their faith. Those two combined make conditions ripe for rapid growth.

A couple things to keep in prespective. Crossing the border illegaly is a misderminor, it is not a felony. Thus it is a minor crime, not a major one. Illegals that attend our church services are not the ones killing people. And finally, they are here because we need them. We have very low unemployment and not enough workers to fill all the positions in our growing economy.

[Woody]

El problema es que Redwood es demasiado gringo. :sad Pero Dios lo ama a él todavía.

Pero los Estados Unidos es tan para todos y no solo una raza.

Name calling is really beneath you Shane

Let's look at the subjects with the merit that they have. If you feel that we should speak Spanish in the US ... then speak to the reason for such a belief. Name calling just diminishes your cause.

So ... tell me why should we provide an additional language in the US. And where should we stop? Should we speak just English and Spanish or should we add French, German and Gaelic?

[cricket]

It sure wouldn't hurt to add them all! I love German as well as Spanish. Stan's right though. We should learn to start speaking as the Spirit does: and converse with one another as we journey together toward our heavenly home.

[Anthony!]

Hello all,

This is an interesting subject...

Bravus, your murder per capita statistics at Nationmaster.com are sourced from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention). Also, the latest statistics from the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) are only known to 2002. Apparently these take a while to process accurately... about 3 to 4 years.

The claim of 45,000 post 9-11-2001 is a time period for which there don't seem to be statistics posted yet.

However, if the trend of decreasing homocide has continued from 2002 to 2006, that means that the 6.1 murders per 100,000 people as reported by the DOJ in 2002 would be 61 murders per 1 million, then 18,300 per 300 million population.

Since DOJ statistics report homocide type by race from 1976-2004 as non-white, non-black offenders being at 1.6%,

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

and if the offender/victim murder rate was a 1 to 1 ratio, then the number of people murdered annually by this race segment would be 292.8. Multiply that number by the years since 9-11 (292.8 X 5 = 1,464) and you have a very low number relative to 45,000.

Something is amiss.

[Dr. Shane]

"Gringo" is not a derogatory term. It is simply slang for a US citezen. The correct term is estadounidense. That isn't used too often except on official documents.

Biolingual education is good when done properly which is phase the students into an all English classroom. Many immirgrants are not able to learn basic math, science and literature comprehensive skills in English. Immirgrants that recieve biolingual education in a transitioning manner that phases them into all English classes do much better on standardized tests than their counterparts that are immediately immersed into all English classes.

If the resources were available it would be great to have biolingual education for all immirgrants. However in practical terms, qualified teachers and a sufficient number of students for this type of education are only available in Spanish.

[aldona]

Quote:

Let's not even discuss the history of Poland.

When my mom was in high school in Poland (1950's/ 60's, under communist rule), everybody had to learn multiple languages. It was just normal and expected. Polish and Russian were compulsory, and they you got to choose two out of German, English, and French.

It's not just because of the history of multiple occupations by all the surrounding nations - it's simple geography. Look at a map of Europe. Every nation borders several others, often all speaking different languages. Mom said it was normal to walk down the street and hear everybody speaking different languages - Polish, Russian, Czech, German, French, English, the list goes on.

Being able to speak multiple languages in Europe is seen as a valuable talent and an advantage, and is actively encouraged at all levels of education. It makes you more employable and makes travel much easier throughout the European Union.

It was a huge culture shock to come to Australia where everybody speaks the same language, and if you speak Polish to someone else in the street, everybody glares at you as if you are committing some kind of conspiracy. And if someone suggests that school students be required to learn another language, it's the end of the world as we know it and we may as well have surrendered to the Japanese in WWII, etc,etc.

aldona

[gina i]

Okay Shane, thanks for clearing that up.. I am obviously not a historian like you :)

[Woody]

"Gringo" is not a derogatory term. It is simply slang for a US citezen. The correct term is estadounidense. That isn't used too often except on official documents.

Biolingual education is good when done properly which is phase the students into an all English classroom. Many immirgrants are not able to learn basic math, science and literature comprehensive skills in English. Immirgrants that recieve biolingual education in a transitioning manner that phases them into all English classes do much better on standardized tests than their counterparts that are immediately immersed into all English classes.

If the resources were available it would be great to have biolingual education for all immirgrants. However in practical terms, qualified teachers and a sufficient number of students for this type of education are only available in Spanish.

Shane ... you have called me a racial name when you don't even know my race and heritage. Unless of course ... you call yourself this name ??

Stan ... I agree with you ... this IS "nasty" and uncalled for. I would hope Shane that you could just admit to it so we can move on.

[Woody]

Shane ... It appears to me that you are just unwilling to admit you used a racial slur. It is either that or you are ignorant to the meaning of the words you use.

I will quote the Websters New World Dictionary College Edition. Gringo ... " a foreigner.esp. an American or Englishman: Hostile and contemptuous."

I said you called me a name and you denied it. I also accuse you of calling me Hostile and Contemptuous racial slurs. In some states you could be prosecuted. All I am asking for is a simple apology. Is that to much to ask so that we can move on?

This reminds me of a few years back when a college student got expelled for calling another student a "water buffalo". It caused a national stir with may people upset at such a slur. I see this as no different. Calling me Gringo is the same as calling a Black person the N word.

We are here to uplift Christ. Hostile words have no place in a Christian Forum. And of all people ... I would think Shane would not want to be a racist.

Let's keep our comments to the subject and not get personal. Discuss the topic and the merits of your beliefs.

[Dr. Shane]

If a person wants to be offended by the Spanish term, gringo, I guess they can choose to let it ruffle their feathers. When I was stationed in Panama in the Army they told us not to worry when the natives called us gringo because it was a friendly term. However if they called us yankee we needed to watch our back.

I live in a community that is nearly 90% hispanic and the term gringo is used in common, everyday conversation in a nonderogatory manner. Hispanics that cannot speak Spanish are often called gringos too. The term "guero" does carry racial overtones with it and I have never heard it applied to any hispanics. Those outside the Spanish-speaking community may get the two terms mixed up.

[Woody]

Look in the dictionary Shane. Ignorance is not an excuse. The fact that your community uses racial slurs is not an excuse.

I would point out that Blacks use the N word " in a nonderogatory manner". Does that make it OK to use?

Just because a certain community uses a word is no excuse to use it as you used it. This is the problem with name calling ... you have to dig in deeper and deeper to resist an apology.

[Woody]

Quote:

If a person wants to be offended by the Spanish term, gringo, I guess they can choose to let it ruffle their feathers.

SHANE ... I could also say ... If you want to get offended at me calling you a [theN-word] then you can choose to let it "ruffle your feathers" also. But ... I didn't call you a [theN-word]. YOU called ME a GRINGO.

The dictionary says Gringo is a racially "hostile" word. Are you willing to accept responsibility or continue to justify your racial slurs against me?

I'll bet if I called you a [theN-word] there would be plenty of outrage. But since you are a minority and no one knows my heritage ... you can get away with racial slurs.

In looking up the word [theN-word] in the dictionary ... I would point out that the exact same word is used to describe it as the word GRINGO. That word is HOSTILE.

[Woody]

I am still looking for an apology for the use of the above racial slurs against me.

[Bravus]

Without getting into the middle of anything, let me just note that dictionaries both lag behind the ways in which actual communities use words and also have to cover the whole world so miss regional variations. In the same way the Chinese term 'gwailo' and the Japanese 'gaijin' may originally have been derogatory but are now often just used in general conversation to denote foreigners.

On the other hand, maybe Shane could apologise for what Redwood *perceives* as a slur, as part of living harmoniously together, without necessarily agreeing that the term is objectively and everywhere a racial slur.

[Woody]

If that is true Bravus ... then I should be free to use the word NIGGUR. Because in the Black community it is widely used as a word of endearment and of brothership. The dictionary is clear about both words. And both words are clearly racial slurs even if it is commonly used by Shane.

Surely he can read the dictionary and make an unqualified apology. Many Whites do not consider the word niggur to be a racial slur. Does that make it right?

I think the dictionary would be a valuable authority.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[Naomi]

If a person wants to be offended by the Spanish term, gringo, I guess they can choose to let it ruffle their feathers. When I was stationed in Panama in the Army they told us not to worry when the natives called us gringo because it was a friendly term. However if they called us yankee we needed to watch our back.

I live in a community that is nearly 90% hispanic and the term gringo is used in common, everyday conversation in a nonderogatory manner. Hispanics that cannot speak Spanish are often called gringos too. The term "guero" does carry racial overtones with it and I have never heard it applied to any hispanics. Those outside the Spanish-speaking community may get the two terms mixed up.

Shane, I have lived where you live. Also, have lived much farther South of where you live. I have close family friends whose parents came from Mexico. I beg to differ ... being called a gringo is not a "friendly" term.

[lazarus]

lol, lol

[Anthony!]

For shame that this topic has been hijacked with all this silliness. I was hoping that Redwood, Bravus and I could discuss the true topic. My response and study has been hijacked...

Is it any wonder that I rarely come to CA any more?

[Bravus]

Yep, I get that feeling too. Hopefully it can be resolved in some way so we can get on with it. I'm staying out of it.