Christian Nation? God forgives, but men don't....

[Robert]

I found this on a forum where ex-cons are talking about the difficulty of getting jobs. This one guy pretty much sums it up:

"i am an ex con who has tried in several places to obtain employment and every attempt is futile, we paid our debts to society yet we are cast away like we are some kind of disease. the only option that we are really given is to continue to be criminals and i assure you many of us no longer want that lifestyle, we can sell drugs and live comfortably, we resort to what we know and that is how to hustle, most of us pulled several years, i served 8 i grew up in there, what else is there for me? i have several license and i have an associates degree yet that is no good because i was young and made poor choices, convicts are always going to be held down in some form, we are job security for the cops and politicions with out us the society will fail, that is why we cannot get jobs, the system wants us to resort to our old way of life, basically they created us so they can stay employed, for whomever reads this that has not made stupid mistakes, the next time something happens in your area remember you chose not to help that person by giving him/her a chance you cast them out, people have to survive, think about it logically, anyone disagree?"

[Taylor]

I feel for him as it would be VERY hard to get a job after being a convict. He made some really bad choices but it takes much longer to build up trust than to break it down. Sad but true.

There are businesses out there who hire x-cons and try to get them on their feet but these businesses are few and far between.

I am not sure what the solution is, if there even is a solution.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

we paid our debts to society yet we are cast away like we are some kind of disease.

This is a false notion. Serving a prison sentence is not paying a debt to society. It must come from the legelistic idealogy of making penance for one's sins. It is kind of like the idea of attoning one's self.

Many prisons have job-training programs for inmates so when they get out they will have some skills. How to turn a criminal into a law-abiding and productive citizen is not an easy question to solve.

[Robert]

Quote:

we paid our debts to society yet we are cast away like we are some kind of disease.

This is a false notion. Serving a prison sentence is not paying a debt to society. It must come from the legalistic ideology of making penance for one's sins. It is kind of like the idea of atoning one's self.

[Robert]

Then "the system" itself is legalistic because it never forgets or forgives.

How does God deal with law-breakers (and all of us stand guilty before His law!)?

“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” [Hebrews 10:17]

Rom 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law [it can't touch us - it can't condemn us everytime we fail. Why?] having died to that by which we were bound...."

"In Christ" we have paid the penalty and hence we have been released from the law's condemnation. That's forgiveness!

Our Government does not practice this, hence it can't be Christian. You shall know them by their fruits.

Robert

[Robert]

How to turn a criminal into a law-abiding and productive citizen is not an easy question to solve.

Again, if our nation is based on Christianity then the following should be used:

Luke 6:36 “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37 “And do not judge and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 “Give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, they will pour into your lap. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

[David Koot]

Christian nation? This is not a Christian nation. That myth has been perpetuated by the likes of the Christian Coalition. The facts are that several of the colonies had established churches, including Mass. Bay and Maryland, others did not, and consciously distanced themselves from the concept--such as R.I. and Pennsylvania, I believe. The Articles of Confederation contained references to God. HOWEVER, there was a shift during the following decade, as a result notably of the influence of the Virginia Declaration of Right, 1786, and the work of Madison and Jefferson.

I remember seeing one of the Kenneth Cox videos in which Mr. Cox made a significant misstatement of fact--significant, at least, to a Con. law buff. He claimed that during the Federal Convention of 1787, when the delegates seemed to have reached a deadlock, Ben Franklin stood up and made a motion that prayer be offered. Mr. Cox went into some detail about those delegates knelt as prayer was offered for God's help in resolving the logjam. That simply is not true. While Mr. Franklin did indeed make a motion for prayer, the delegates declined. Mr. Madison records that the motion was put on the table, where it remained.

IN the 1830's, militant church groups were pressing for a Federal law prohibiting Sunday mail delivery as desecrating the 'Sabbath' rest. The Senate Report on Sunday Mails denounced the attempt in scathing language. Quite a read. It was not until the War Between the States that the Christian nation movement once again gained momentum, particular after the Battle of Second Manassas. The National Reform Association was founded, and for the next few decades really pushed for religious legislation, recognizing that America is a Christian nation. They had some success. However, the Great War put a halt to it all. The twentieth century saw the increasing secularization of American society. All the revisionist history of the CC notwithstanding, this country simply is not a Christian nation.

Dave

[Dr. Shane]

Prison often teaches criminals to be better criminals too. When they get out they have new criminal connections than when they went in.

God washes away the sins of the repentant sinner. God can read the heart and knows who is repentant and who isn't. Men cannot read the heart. We don't know which criminals are repentant and which are just trying to minipulate us.

I understand the convicts frustration but part of their debt to society is taking responsibility for their actions. They have no one to blame for their circumstances but themselves. It is their own fault that they have a hard time getting a job. Blaming society for their problems isn't accepting responsibility for their circumstances.

[Robert]

Christian nation? This is not a Christian nation. That myth has been perpetuated by the likes of the Christian Coalition.

Thank you! I agree....My case has been made.

[Robert]

Prison often teaches criminals to be better criminals too. When they get out they have new criminal connections than when they went in.

[Robert]

...they [law-breakers] come out [of prison] into a self-righteous, society that judges convicts by their past performance. That, Shane, is sin to the highest order. In fact it is the one sin that will exclude anyone from heaven.

Let me go off on a small tangent. This, however, is relevant:

I would like to introduce a principle used by Christ in the NT. This can be seen in the following:

Luke 6:37 “And do not judge and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38 …. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”

James 4:5 “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Okay the principle is what you demand of others the same will be demanded of you. Let’s see how the principle works. Turn to Luke chapter ten, verse 25:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Now let’s apply this to the principles above. They are:

“For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return” and “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Did Jesus give this proud legalist grace or law? Right, law! That’s why Jesus said, “Do this (keep the law) and you will live.”

Let’s look at another one:

Matthew 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”

Does this man want grace? No, he wants eternal life in return for being good. He is definitely proud. What is Jesus reply?

“If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” [verse 17]

Now that gives totally new meaning to, "God opposes the proud, but give grace to the humble."

Robert

[Robert]

Our legal system is by nature opposed to grace. This does not mean that those who do wrong should not be removed from society for a time.

However, those lawmakers who formulate the laws are no doubt proud, Pharisaical types who think they can do no wrong. Watch Nancy Grace [what an oxymoron!] sometime and you will see what I mean. Yes, they deal with terrible wrongs, but they are so busy comparing themselves to these law-breakers that they think very highly of themselves. That's a mistake!

So when I look at Rev 13:11 ("he [the USA] had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon") I see a nation who looks righteous, but in reality is self-righteous. It only looks Christian from afar.

Now I'm in trouble.

Rob

[Gerr]

Last week I cried in my office after seeing a 36 yo man. He came to me for depression. He was put in jail (juvenile facility?) at 12 yo, and didn't get out until he was 17. Then sometime later he was jailed again & didn't get out until he was 26 yo. He is now 36. He claims he has not committed any crime since he got out of prison this time. He was able to work as a mason helper for some years, but not been able to work in that capacity for the past year because of back pain. He can't get a less physically demanding job because of his felony record. He does not have a high school diploma. I told him he could get a GED and then go on to something higher. But he is totally feeling defeated & beaten down because of all the rejections due to his past. He feels it's no use to try for an education because his father died in his 40's, & his mother died in her 50's, so he doesn't feel like he is long for this world. He wants to die, but is too afraid it might hurt to commit suicide. So right now it seems that he is marking time. I told him God loves him, and that He even has plans for him even if he just feels like a cipher.

I really felt very sad for this man.

How long can this man hold on before he starts back on a life of crime? Surely, this societal rejection of people even after they have served their time and wish to be integrated back into society must play a large factor in the high statistical rate of recidivism.

I seem to recall about a company or some companies that make special effort to reach out to ex-cons and employ them. Anybody else heard or read about them?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Shane, there ARE some criminals for whom society must take responsibility for. I just related in another post in this thread about a man I felt really bad for. If society shows no desire to integrate them back into society, they will have no choice but to support themselves by illegal means.

Gerry

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Gerry that is so sad...

You might try this site: http://www.someonecares.org/

The Speaker/Director is Don McClure..I'm sure he knows the problems of which you speak...as he is also an ex-con. He may be able to give some helpful suggestions or direction...

[Gerr]

Thanks, Pam.

Gerry

[Robert]

...there ARE some criminals for whom society must take responsibility for.

:tu

[Dr. Shane]

As Christians, we should help rehabilitate ex-convicts. This is known as Christian charity. The bigger question becomes if secular society is obligated to have Christian charity and should ex-convicts expect it as an entitlement?

I have sat in AA halls for over 20 years with many ex-convicts. AA teaches them to take responsibility for their lot in life and not blame others for where they are. So that is my background.

Now this sad 36 year old man needs someone to lift him up. That is where the church can play a role. I am not sure I want to give that role to the secular government. If he can no longer work as a mason, he might be able to get training as a painter, plumber, heating/air conditoning tech or electrician. I think he would need to get his GED to go to vocational school but such courses are likely to be less than two years.

[Stan]

Last week I cried in my office after seeing a 36 yo man. He came to me for depression. He was put in jail (juvenile facility?) at 12 yo, and didn't get out until he was 17. Then sometime later he was jailed again & didn't get out until he was 26 yo. He is now 36. He claims he has not committed any crime since he got out of prison this time. He was able to work as a mason helper for some years, but not been able to work in that capacity for the past year because of back pain. He can't get a less physically demanding job because of his felony record. He does not have a high school diploma. I told him he could get a GED and then go on to something higher. But he is totally feeling defeated & beaten down because of all the rejections due to his past. He feels it's no use to try for an education because his father died in his 40's, & his mother died in her 50's, so he doesn't feel like he is long for this world. He wants to die, but is too afraid it might hurt to commit suicide. So right now it seems that he is marking time. I told him God loves him, and that He even has plans for him even if he just feels like a cipher.

I really felt very sad for this man.

How long can this man hold on before he starts back on a life of crime? Surely, this societal rejection of people even after they have served their time and wish to be integrated back into society must play a large factor in the high statistical rate of recidivism.

I seem to recall about a company or some companies that make special effort to reach out to ex-cons and employ them. Anybody else heard or read about them?

Gerry

Dr Cabalo

I appreciate your ministry/practice am sure there is a story behind why you left one of the nicer places in the US to live in to move there. I see you as being God lead, and wonder what he lead you to...

[Gerr]

Shane, he feels it is pointless to train and advance himself in anything. What's the point of becoming a painter, plumber, a-c expert if no one will take a chance and employ him because of his felony background? After so many rejections, he feels beaten down, defeated. That's his biggest hurdle right now, defeatism.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

I see you as being God lead, and wonder what he lead you to...

I am eager to find out!

Gerry

[GreatLakesGramma]

I know how hard it is for an ex-con to live a clean life when he can't find any kind of job at all, not even a minimum wage job. My ex son in law has a felony conviction on his record. And he couldn't even get work at a fast food joint. However, I also can't blame employers for being unwilling to hire felons, especially those convicted of violent crimes. They cannot see the heart, to know whether the individual is reformed, and they have a responsibility to their company, and to their employees, to avoid creating a situation that could result in harm to either or both.

If an employee with a felony conviction became angry at a fellow employee, manager, or customer, and killed or injured him/her, would not the company be held liable for knowingly hiring a potentially dangerous person?

[Robert]

:JF

[Robert]

They cannot see the heart, to know whether the individual is reformed, and they have a responsibility to their company, and to their employees, to avoid creating a situation that could result in harm to either or both.

Neither can they read the heart of non-felons. And the Bible says that anyone without a personal relationship with God is at the mercy of his/her nature. Even then he/she can slip (remember King David?)

Rob

[GreatLakesGramma]

Yes, Robert, I agree. However, one who has already crossed the line into violent crime has already demonstrated disrespect for the rights and well-being of others. This makes them a higher risk, statistically. It's a sad situation.