Amusements

[Woody]

God want us to be amused with Him but to often we want the amusements of the world.

"There are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers etc, which we cannot approve because heaven condemns them."

1T 514

[bevin]

Yep - looks very stupid AND legalistic, doesn't it. But remember she comes from a society that was still basically run by manual labor - the idea that you could earn good money sitting, thinking, and typing would have been ludicrous to her - and the idea that you needed to find exercise beyond chopping wood, cleaning the house, etc would have been equally ludicrous.

Later in life actions lead to the obvious conclusion that she somewhat changed her position - she did provide toys to children, for instance.

All you have to understand is that prophets are human, and a lot of what they write is their own fallible and contextually based opinions

/Bevin

[Woody]

Did Ellen White change ...

OR .... Did what Heaven condemns change?

[there buster]

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All you have to understand is that prophets are human, and a lot of what they write is their own fallible and contextually based opinions

OR you could realize that the same principle applied in different times and places would result in different rules.

So that buying a bicycle that cost in relative terms as much as a automobile does today, but had limited use, would be a frivoulous waste, whereas a few years later, when the relative cost fell and the utility increased, they might be a good investment.

People often fail to note the present tense "heaven condemns them." At that time and in that place. In another time and place, differing circumstances might yield different results.

But a lot of people misunderstand Ellen White this way. They read "condemns" and think,"that's present tense, so it must be now." But there is something called the historical present tense, where, when telling a story from the past, the characters speak of that past time in the present tense.

This is the type of misunderstanding Rea and Numbers make much of, but which a junior English student can figure out.

If Ellen White had written, in 1880, that "the railroad is the fastest transportation," people like bevin would be complaining she lied, was fallible, because today everyone knows the airplane "is" the fastest.

About 90% of the "Ellen White lied or was wrong" boils down to one variation or another of this fallacy.

[Woody]

Good Point Ed ...

You know ... the cost of checkers have really skyrocketed.

[Taylor]

Hee well they might have been costly back in her days. I believe that Bicycles in her day cost at least a month's wages, and didnt' have any brakes....so not only were they very expensive but dangerous.

Also, were these games she mentioned used for gambeling? That would make a difference as well. For instance is card playing wrong or is gambeling that can go with card playing wrong?

[there buster]

The 'cost' of checkers has gone down in every way.

Reading your post, I don't know if you're making a joke, or you miss the point entirely.

"Playing checkers" had a whole series of things connected with it. For example, what economists call "opportunity cost." In a day when people cut and split their own firewood, not only for warmth but for everyday cooking, the amount of time consumed in playing checkers might simply be too large compared to the hours in the day, and the chores to be done.

[Woody]

Good Point Taylor.

I had not thought about that.

[there buster]

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For instance is card playing wrong or is gambeling that can go with card playing wrong?

Guess I'll have to throw out "From Egypt to Canaan." It's got a great big deck of cards.

[Woody]

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If Ellen White had written, in 1880, that "the railroad is the fastest transportation," people like bevin would be complaining she lied, was fallible, because today everyone knows the airplane "is" the fastest.

Ed ... This is the kind of thing that I wish did not happen in CA. Let Bevin speak for himself. There is no reason to make things personal.

[bevin]

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Guess I'll have to throw out "From Egypt to Canaan." It's got a great big deck of cards.

Do you play it rather than chopping wood on the Sabbath?

Do you gamble on the outcome?

/Bevin

[bevin]

Quote:

I believe that Bicycles in her day cost at least a month's wages, and didnt' have any brakes....so not only were they very expensive but dangerous.

and medical care wasn't what it did today, and nor was rubber nor steel

Only a few years later her staff was using bicycles

/Bevin

[bevin]

Quote:

If Ellen White had written, in 1880, that "the railroad is the fastest transportation," people like bevin would be complaining she lied, was fallible, because today everyone knows the airplane "is" the fastest.

Ed - go back and read my post again. You and I are actually in agreement on this one.

/Bevin

[Taylor]

The 'cost' of checkers has gone down in every way.

Reading your post, I don't know if you're making a joke, or you miss the point entirely.

"Playing checkers" had a whole series of things connected with it. For example, what economists call "opportunity cost." In a day when people cut and split their own firewood, not only for warmth but for everyday cooking, the amount of time consumed in playing checkers might simply be too large compared to the hours in the day, and the chores to be done.

That is a good point Ed about the waste of time it was given the time it took just to live. It would be a problem just like wasting time watching TV in our society....just to kill time. Of course there is good TV as well. :)

[Taylor]

Likewise she said that baths should be taken before sundown on Friday. Well when you had to draw your water, heat it, and all it was a chore for sure! Now I can just turn on the shower and bingo I am done in less time than it would have taken them to draw the water. I really don't think EGW was a fanatic. I think we fail to see the context in which some of the things were said. We should not throw out what she says but see the principle in it. The principles don't change but how they are applied may, given the times.

[Gail]

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Now I can just turn on the shower and bingo I am done in less time than it would have taken them to draw the water.

Bingo, Taylor? LOL Let's not get started on Bingo!!

[Woody]

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Likewise she said that baths should be taken before sundown on Friday.

Quote:

Well when you had to draw your water, heat it, and all it was a chore for sure! Now I can just turn on the shower and bingo I am done in less time than it would have taken them to draw the water. I really don't think EGW was a fanatic. I think we fail to see the context in which some of the things were said.

Church leadership did not believe in this when I was young. And I am not that old. But when I went to campmeeting ... they would close down the showers on Sabbath. People really would smell RIPE on Sabbath.

[David Koot]

Speaking of games . . . The reasons Sr. White gave for her counsel against these activities are still present. She warns against games of chance, and she warns against the use of probationary time in frivolous amusements --time which could better spent in other activities that would glorify God and help advance His kingdom.

As for baths/showers . . . that is part of preparation for Sabbath. I make a real effort to shower on Friday afternoon. I want to get it out of the way and be ready for Sabbath.

Dave

[Gail]

I agree with what was said about the principle. When circumstances change the principle can stay the same and have the rules change.

I understand the principle here to be the wise use of time and focus.

[Woody]

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The reasons Sr. White gave for her counsel against these activities are still present. She warns against games of chance

Br. Koot ... Unless you are referring to gambling in this case ... which Ellen White didn't ... I personally don't see how playing checkers is taking much of a chance. I guess if you were one that had to win at every thing you did ... then it might be taking chance. But checkers is just not that intense.

[Gail]

And no money is involved as is with gambling, no incentive for one to gain lots with very little energy being expounded

[bevin]

There is more than money one can loose playing checkers.

I know a lovely SDA couple who took "strip checkers" with them on their honeymoon.

Talk about checkers wasting time...

/Bevin

[Woody]

Personally I don't see any problem with a married couple playing strip checkers on their honeymoon. What a married couple does in the privacy of their honeymoon bed is not my concern ... unless you are saying they should be chopping wood on their honeymoon instead of wasting time "playing" with checkers.

[Gail]

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Talk about checkers wasting time...

Just adds to the adventure, I guess :)

[Taylor]

Nothing is a waste of time provided it is

1. Ethical and Moral

2. It is needing to be done

3. Does not take away from something that must be done (that is of higher priority)

4. Honors God

5. Helps fellow man

6. Helps you appreciate life (i.e. relax, gain perspective etc)

7. Draws you closer to God or to Friends or Family.