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One last point, when I express my views, feel free to disagree with me. On the subject of Church Policies, My perspective is that church policies are determined as much by how they are put into practice as they are by what is placed in writing and that what is placed in writing is often advice rather than law. so, on this point, some of you will disagree with what I say.

Tom and I come from different backgrounds and therefore different perspectives. So, it is possible that we may not always agree. Regardless, I will welcome any perspective that he might want to share as it will contribute to the conversation.

Before I made any judgment, I would want to know more about the source of his money/property. I am reminded of a man I once knew. As a destitute college student, a rich relative once gave him an older car the relative no longer needed. While the car was older, as a new vehicle, it had been very expensive. The student kept it because it was mechanically sound and exactly served his immediate need. I am also thinking of a retired SDA minister who lives very well and beyond what would normally be expected for a retired SDA minister. Major purchases in his life come from an adult child who earns a very large income. So, I would want to know more about the source of income. I would also want to know more about how your illustrated person used the resources that were available to him. To what extent does he use those resources for others. In the example of my retired minister, Within the last year, he used money that was available to him, to purchase a late model SUV for a woman in need of such transportation. He gave it to her along with funds for registration and insurance for a year. Reading the OP again, I see that you said that the money was raised within the SDA denomination. On that basis, I would have more than a major problem, regardless of anything else.

A year ago yesterday I was house hunting in Grants Pass, OR. A year ago today (9/11/2013), I took a short trip to Crooked River Ranch to meet Woody (having "met" him on Club Adventist first). ||: Then he took a trip down to see me in California, and then I took a trip up north again. :|| And the rest is history.

I had been teaching my three-year-old daughter, Caitlin, the Lord’s Prayer. For several evenings at bedtime, she would repeat after me the lines from the prayer. Finally, she decided to go solo. I listened with pride as she carefully enunciated each word, right up to the end of the prayer: “Lead us not into temptation,” she prayed, “but deliver us some e-email. Amen.”

Sometimes we do not know the entire story. In the last year of my employment at the VA hospital in Denver, it became evident to my wife and I that my vision and therefore driving skills, were not sufficient to some of the conditions under which I was driving back and forth to work. This was one aspect of our decision that I should retire. As we looked into the future, we felt that it was likely that my vision would not improve and might decrease. To prepare for that future I would need to be driving a vehicle that had some of the additional safety helps that were coming out on some of the brand-new vehicles. WE also felt that we would be best able to purchase a new vehicle while I was still employed. So, we searched for a vehicle that had the most of those safety features. We excluded luxury vehicles. We ended up deciding to chose between a Ford model and a Nissan model. After going for a test drive in the Ford, we decided against it for reasons other than drivability. In order to purchase the Nissan that we wanted, we had to have it specially built, with the optional added safety feathers and to purchase that more expensive model of the specific Nissan that we wanted. Our decision was controlled by the availability of the safety features that we felt I needed to continue driving. It is possible that someone could look at that vehicle and tell us that we could have purchased a Nissan at a lower price and given the difference to the church. No, we could not have done so at that time, and had the safety features that we felt I needed. I do not think that God expects me to give up driving just so the Church can have a bit more money. Sometimes people simply do not know the entire story. NOTE: At the time I was working, my wife and I were driving more than 30,000 miles a year on our two cars. So, at that time, all of our vehicles were hybrids--I have owned four (4) hybrids, one of which I still own. They cost a bit more to purchase. But, with the savings in gasoline and the Federal and Colorado tax credits, all of then saved money in the long run. For people in other circumstances, that might not have been true.

Same idea, I would not mind the lifestyle depending on things such as the source of the income and what else is behind the choice. The Voice of Prophecy team use to travel in a very expensive and fancy car. Turns out that for the number of people and amount of equipment that style of car was the most cost effective. Buses would have been too big and costly and more modest vehicles would have been too small and need a number of them. I have also come to place in life where I feel that probably what would be wise for our would be pastors to do is to first build up an income and then go into the ministry.

Pam, you more and more show your value to this forum.

the above was not written by Ellen White, nor by any Adventist..... I recognized the names that were listed and did a bit of research... It is a quote from the volume published in 1813, A General History of the Baptist Denomination, Chapter 5 (General history of all the separate Baptists in Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia, from the time of their settlement at Sandy Creek, North Carolina, 1755, to the division of their extensive connexion, in 1770). The 1774 Baptist Association was debating whether the offices of Ephesians 4, namely Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers, were still to be in use. After a pro/con debate, the vote was taken that all offices were to be maintained. Samuel Harris was voted to become the [one and only] "Apostle," and was also referred to as the "messenger".... Shortly thereafter, others in southern Virginia, beyond the James River, decided they also wanted a regional "Apostles," and appointed John Waller and Elijah Craig (who had both been rejected in the original Apostle vote). In 1775, "these Apostles made their first reports in rather discouraging terms, and no others were ever appointed. They finally concluded, that the office of Apostles, like that of Prophets, was peculiar to the Apostolick age, and ceased with the cessation of that inspiration and those miraculous gifts, by which these characters were peculiarly distinguished." Here's the entire quote. It's rather interesting. from pages 49-50 of the 1813 above-cited volume..

Woody, I find your reference interesting. I have checked and the pages cited in the Index are pages 190 & 227. You raise an interesting view that I had not considered. However, regardless of how the citation is indexed, as I read the cited pages, it seems most reasonable to me to think that on those two pages the word "messengers" applies to the common people who were proclaiming the message and not any kind of organized clergy. Certainly I would think that the term applied to men, and women The first page, 190, comes from the time frame of 1850 and the second, 227, from the time frame of 1857. At that time the SDA Church had not been organized--1863. Yes, there were calls for identification/certification of people authorized to represent the developing group of believers. This began in about 1851 and increased in the years leading up to 1854 and as time went on from then. I have not yet seen the exact time when actual certificates were issued that identified the people authorized to represent this developing group of people. But, at this moment, the most reasonable, to me, seems to be the idea that the citations from pages 190 & 227, applied to a more general group than ministers, regardless of how it is listed in the Index. Anyhow, your comment is interesting.

Sounds like we would probably get along pretty well Joe! I have had some similar experiences to yourself and have not one jot of regret for it, my view is that the time alloted to altar ministry is my favourite part of church meetings where people do business with God in whatever way He wishes to reach them. If I was at another Pentecostal meeting and felt the call to go forward, I would embrace it fully as an SDA, I cant see anything about that that is in conflict with any of my current beliefs. Sadly I have met people who believe that Christians can be possessed and so forth. - Meaning that when someone is born again, what Jesus did on the Cross was not enough and that they need further work in order to be set free. I agree that God does in no way allow His people to be taken like that. In my own case I have gone from Salvation Army, to Pentecostal, back to the Salvation Army and now SDA. My view is that there is no single denominational or non denominational group that has it all perfect and that God uses various groups to preach the Gospel. For what its worth, that is an opinion also held be Ellen White re the remnant being involved in various groups. Yesterday SDA TeleEvangalist Doug Batchelor preached "Surviving the Coming Storm" here in my city in the second largest Pentecostal church in Adelaide, the Christian Family Centre. Three shows were taped for viewing on 3ABN and affiliates. Their Pentecostal denomination the "Christian Revival Crusade" regularly assists the SDA with the use of their facilities for rallies and seminars and so forth. I know their Senior Minister and some of the ministry team there and they are a great bunch of people. If the SDA in Australia can work with a Pentecostal group for evangelism, then I suspect that is not a bad model for others to follow also!

And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. Isaiah 4:1 (KJV) Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them. {PP 59.1} Satan chooses women, for he can use them more successfully than he can men.--Ms. 29, 1911, p.13. ("Fragments of Old Testament History,"November 17,1911.)..Ellen White Estate

Thanks JoeMo, It took a while for me to find my way back. Hope you're having a God is Love! Jesus saves!

But I think the point should not be lost that it was in fact a woman that brought the truth of the Sabbath to the early Advent believers, core belief significant enough that it is reflected in our name. She may not have technically been a founder, but without her one has to wonder where we would be without her timely message that she taught to those two men.

yay!!!!God is Good!!!!!

I'd be flabbergasted, mindboggled, dumbfounded and quite stunned!

I'd choke on my muesli...

Hey Sojourner, I am currently a part-time member of a charismatic church that used to be SDA. I, too have been slain in the Spirit; and when it happens, I am undone for quite a while. It is always a very unnerving experience because God can get really intense. I don't necessarily seek it; but when it happens, I'm not ungrateful. I consider the "trance" experience just one of the many ways God manifests Himseld by signs and wonders. One supernatural manifestation (trancing, prophesying, miraculous healing or deliverance, glory cloud, aroma of heaven, feathers, jewels, gold dust, etc.) can convert more people than dozens of sermons. Some people might say "that is dangerous satanic stuff". My response is that God loves us and protects us; and I don't think He is mean enough or weak enough to just let satan into someone's heart when they are earnestly seeking communion with God.

It's just you, Stan. Moving on... a criticizing spirit, to me, is when a person makes it their mission, whether purposely or subconsciously, to find something wrong in every situation. They have the skill of sucking the joy out of your day. I have to watch out for this in myself, because I am always looking for ways to make things better, and any comments in that direction can sound like criticism. Self reformation is a hard task. LD

Loved him in Pale Rider

Yes, it's not often nowadays that a modern-day human would be more able to look Adam in the eye in heaven... He had a very recognisable face. I'm sorry he's gone, too.

That isn't terribly logical. First of all, the OT priesthood is over and done, replaced by the NT concept of the priesthood of all believers. ("All" is comprehensive of all believers, male and female, young and old, Jew and gentile, slave and free.) But stop and think about what you have suggested. God choses the prophets, both male and female for the highest spiritual leadership role, that of a prophet, but the church is free to choose not to recognize woman to a lower ministry role? There are also holes in your observation about the NT church roles. In 1 Timothy 5, Paul speaks of female elders immediately after referring to the male elders using the same Greek word, "presbyteros". The context of those verses begins in chapter 4, where he speaks of the body of elders, "presbyterion" (v. 14) that had blessed by laying on of hands, or ordained Timothy. That strongly indicates that in the church at Ephesus that the body of elders included both men and women. The qualifications for the elders/bishops are very similar to those of the "diakonos" (translated as deacons and ministers) including the frequently referenced "husband of one wife" phrase by those against WO to suggest that it is a men only role. But very significantly, Paul calls Phoebe a "diakonos" of the church at Cenchrea. How does one reconcile that with his statement elsewhere that a diakonos in the church is to be the husband of one wife? Is he contradicting himself? I think not! Perhaps it is the interpretation of that phrase "husband of one wife" that is not correct. That phrase in Greek is literally "one man woman". Elsewhere Paul uses it similarly in speaking of the qualifications for widows working in the church as "one woman man". The order of the words after the word "one" is less significant to the meaning of the phrase that seems to be a Greek idiom that simply means monogamous. That would give consistency to Phoebe being diakonos.

Mrs. White said it best: In Minneapolis God gave precious gems of truth to His people in new settings. This light from heaven by some was rejected with all the stubbornness the Jews manifested in rejecting Christ, and there was much talk about standing by the old landmarks. But there was evidence they knew not what the old landmarks were. There was evidence and there was reasoning from the word that commended itself to the conscience; but the minds of men were fixed, sealed against the entrance of light, because they had decided it was a dangerous error removing the “old landmarks” when it was not moving a peg of the old landmarks, but they had perverted ideas of what constituted the old landmarks. The passing of the time in 1844 was a period of great events, opening to our astonished eyes the cleansing of the sanctuary transpiring in heaven, and having decided relation to God’s people upon the earth, [also] the first and second angels’ messages and the third, unfurling the banner on which was inscribed, “The commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” One of the landmarks under this message was the temple of God, seen by His truth-loving people in heaven, and the ark containing the law of God. The light of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment flashed its strong rays in the pathway of the transgressors of God’s law. The nonimmortality of the wicked is an old landmark. I can call to mind

There were many things EGW stated as fact because that was what was accepted as fact in her day. Just because she makes a statement .... does not mean she was inspired to make that statement. Knowledge continues to grow. She grew and changed her beliefs many times during her lifetime. That does not detract from her 'prophet' status. As a prophet .... she had a mission and message to perform and deliver . And she did it well. This ideological promoting that she was infallible is totally off base. She herself debunked that and told us to compare all she said to scripture.

EGW wrote many things that were undispute and accepted as correct in her day. That she could do so based on common knowledge/understanding of the day doesn't detract from her inspiration. And when those bits of accepted knowledge may stand corrected/updated it also does not detract from her inspiration. She her self changed and grew in her understanding of quite a number of things over her lifetime. That does not mean we should not trust her inspiration. She was not infallible. And just because she is now dead, does not mean that learning and growth in our understanding or even the hope of change and progress or any new light died with her. From her perspective at the time there was likely no reason to question or dispute the long held tradition that Paul wrote Hebrews. For her to have disputed that or claimed anyone else to be the author would have needlessly detracted from anything she had to say about the content of Hebrews.

Quote: Turns out, if we do not take the gospel to every kindred nation and tongue in our villages and cities, none of us are getting out of this place alive. Embrace diversity, make friends with those who differ from you as they are among the best tools to spread the Three Angles' Messages to their friends and families. Give special attention to new immigrants who have left behind family and friends as they seek new opportunities and blessings. What my mother said was true, people different from me, have added more to my life then those similar to me. You also might find your quality of life has improved and learn more about the world around you. It only makes sense. And it needs to be done quickly, or else it will be too late. Even the secular world agrees with that, but as in past history, building a tower to get above the flood water on our own is their answer to the problem(s) God cares! Jesus saves!