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I may be wrong, but it seems to me that there has always been a section for "church budget" on the tithes and offerings envelope. It has nothing to do with support or nonsupport of conference activities. I've never seen "online" giving software, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to have the church budget as a separate line...

Some interesting points from Tony Campolo in this short clip, - what would you have done?

True education is more about teaching us how to think than about what to think. Without education, these poor people (mostly women) are being taught not to think at all. Do what you are told without question or hesitation, or be punished - badly.

So what you are saying is that you really don't know and don't have any real evidence of your bald assertion. It strikes me as just the contemporary versions of the politically motivated communist witch hunts of McCarthyism. It follows the worst strategy and of accusing someone of the worst possible thing politically and force a denial and then count that as lying.

You may have to do a bit of study Why do the Jews no longer sacrifice at the temple? (Or at least I don't think they do) It doesn't have to do with the NT vs the OT. The things that typified Jesus from the OT were fulfilled through Him. Some of the laws have to do with the fact that old time Israel had God as its leader. Then it became like the other nations, having a worldly leader and worldly laws. Instead of sticking to the moral guidelines as set down and preserved through the Tanakh, they expounded on them via the Mishnah, the Talmuds and the Midrash. By the time Jesus came on the scene He astounded the people because He taught from the Old Testament. He told the hearers that they had made nought of God's commandments by the commandments of men. They totally missed seeing who He was. If they had stuck to the OT only, who knows- they may have recognised Him as the Messiah. Even a quick read of the NT shows you how well-versed the typical Jew was in Scripture. The fact that Jesus quoted profusely from the OT shows you that it was an important source of truth to our Saviour. It is not that one is better than the other. It is more like a continuation.

Temporarily locked for administrative review...

But an unwise person also without knowledge is the worst possible, basically an ignorant fool. The only hope for an ignorant fool is blind luck. But I think you misunderstand education if you believe it is simply the acquisition of information, facts and data and assume having that in ones head amounts to knowledge. Education and knowledge are indeed much more than that. Knowledge is more than rote memorization of information. Knowledge requires understanding of the meaning and application of that information. Wisdom is the ability to make that knowledge useful for life. Education done right accomplishes just that.

Also another issue is that while God's law is absolute, the Bible and Mrs. White makes applications that tend not to be absolute but that applies to specific situations. However people have a "One size fit's all" mentality. This is what we find some of the Pharisees trying to do in Jesus' day. Much of what they said was good in and of it self. But it became a one size fits all mentality. Another illustration is Mrs. White wrote some things about the circus. There were people involved with circuses who held similar concerns and worked on trying to fix these. One was P. T. Barnum. [ When I was going through the White estate vault at Andrews I came across a paper on a time line of Mrs. White's work. It said that she and Barnum knew each other and that Barnum sponsored Mrs. White to give some health lectures. I have been unable to confirm this statement. The closest that I could find was that when his program came into town that the church put up a near by tent to minister to those who were going to the show). Anyway, Willie understood Barnum's show not to fall under his mother's condemnation of the circus from earlier and was planning to bring his children to see it. However many church members quoted her earlier quote and said "How can her grandchildren go to the circus after she said this about the circus." Although Willie understood the difference between principle and application, he decided that it would confuse too many people so he decided not to bring the children to see the show. Thus some of the "wolves" that come here are not really wolves in sheep's clothing as such, but just have a disproportionate application of a good principle, that they end up pushing on others.

hch, In your citation from eGW, you left out a very important part. Here is a longer quote: It is the listed principles of intrepration of the Bible that are listed above that EGW advocated., you wilolnote that even then, she only encouraged people to follow the principles. To say that EGW tells us that Miller arrived at truth, while following his understanding of chronology is not telling us that his understanding of chronology was correct. Further, If one were to say that Miller was correct in his understanding of the chronology that led to 1844, that would nto be saying anything about a 6,000 year creation. One could be correct on point A and wrong on pont B. NOTE: You can assign whatever chronology you wish ot A & B.

And there are those who believe that she was a true prophet, however they read her through the eyes of some of our leaders who tended to focus on parts of what she was saying, and missing parts of what she was saying. Who she and her son wrote letters to telling them that they were misrepresenting her and not understanding her. But their use of her writings has become very popular among some sub groups among us.

Sounds to me like you started off with the Sabbath. Why? Why not first build a common relationship of beliefs?

Look, there's confusion everywhere even in Adventist circles, but I've noticed that "other" Christians (Baptist, Methodist, etc) have confusing doctrines also. Every church has "wheat & tares...sheep & goats." Every Church has those who are resting in Christ's finished work and those who are self-righteous and seek to bring glory to themselves. The SDA church was raised to continue the reformation. The reformers of yesterday did not fully restore the gospel to its purity as in the days of Christ and the Apostles. Sadly, Satan has had great success in retarding the three angel's message. However, it will be the SDA denomination that finishes the reformation and presents the gospel in it's purity. In fact it has already happened! The SDA church will continue to reform until there's a shaking. The shaking will be over the gospel received by faith or justification by faith. After all this is the three angel's message in verity: "Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel’s message, and I have answered, “It is the third angel’s message, in verity.”– The Review and Herald, April 1, 1890. My point? I do not attend my local SDA church because as far as I know it is still controlled by those presenting "another gospel". Neither do I attend other Christian denominations because they have an incomplete gospel. There is great hope for the SDA church. Don't abandon it.

So… Tom, what do you do, do you play any sports…? Well, yeah! I’m a football player! Wow! That’s impressive. Yep, it’s one of the toughest games to play, but it’s the only man’s sport! All of other sports are for sissies. I’m a football player and I’m proud of it. A tough guy! Nice! So, when can I see you play? Well, you see… football is a lifestyle. It’s not just about the game. I’m playing football right now. Really? That’s interesting. Well, do you practice, or have a team? Of course I do. We come and practice every Saturday morning. First we come and discuss the rules of football. Then, we sing about the guy who invented the game. Then we hear a lecture on football… and then we go home and read more about football, while we watch other people talk about past football players on TV, and the lessons we should all learn about how to be better football players. So, when do you guys play? Didn’t I just tell you? Football is a lifestyle, it’s not something that you just do here and there, or have a game that everyone writes about in papers. It’s about being a football player by knowing the rules, and discussing them, and living the football player's lifestyle. So, what’s different between you and people who don’t play football? Now, come on now. We know the game better than these people. We know the rules better than these people. We pay our football league fees. We know the names and stats of the famous players in history. And we occasionally throw a pass or two when people really ask for it, or need it. But, other people throw football too on occasion, does it make them football players? Now, you are just frustrating me with your lack of understanding. Football is about understanding of the rules, the history of the game, and the lifestyle of football. But, isn’t football is a game that you play. If you don’t actually play it, how can you call yourself a football player? Well, we gather and treat injuries, and we pass out Gatorade to people who are thirsty, like a good football friend will do. But non-football doctors and charities already do that. Yes, but they are not players, they are not on the football team, they don’t know football rules, and they don’t get a trophy and Pro football player salary and mansion once they retire. We do. Why is it so hard to understand? Hmm. Interesting. So… I was going to ask you, would you like to be a football player like me?

Excellent!!! It reminded me of something I clipped a number of years ago... Benchwarmer: Show up on Sabbath/Sunday eleven o’clock sharp and leave twelve o’clock dull. They do not sing, pray, work, and apparently do nothing but take up pew space. Sidelines: where lukewarm Christians always are. Running back: one who is unafraid to meet the opponent head on by faithfully proclaiming the truth of God’s Word. Linebacker: one who defends the faith against all attacks. Back Judge: one who only criticizes and never gets in the game. Nose tackle: method the pastor's wife uses to try and keep church gossip to a minimum. Assistant coach: an associate pastor. Stiff Arm: do not lay hands on anyone quickly. Off-season: summer vacation when church attendance falls off. Overtime: sermon continues past noon. Coin toss: taking up an offering. Pigskin: smoked ham at the church potluck dinner. Punt: point in the sermon where due to lack of response from the congregation, the pastor veers off-course from his sermon in desperation to regain the attention of the people. Punt return: congregation's response to pastor's punt. Defensive holding: gripping the back of the pew in front of you when under conviction. Delay of game: method special singers employ when their performance track is not cued to correct song. Offensive guard: persons who are constantly looking for something to be offended by. Quick count: estimate of Sabbath/Sunday attendance. Dead ball: awkward silence during the sermon in which pastor is pausing for an amen, which he never receives. Roster: official list of church members whether they are currently attending or not attending. Excessive timeouts: crying babies interrupting the service numerous times. Eligible receiver: a faithful servant of the Lord who can be trusted to do the work of the ministry. Unnecessary roughness: where gossiping has become a spiritual gift. Formation: with whom we gather with in the foyer after the service has ended. Signals: silent communication between the worship leader and the guy manning the sound board. 20 Second Time Out: pastor hasn’t prepared effectively to preach the Word of God on Sabbath/Sunday. Therefore, he extends a time of corporate prayer and singing that he claims is led by the Spirit, so that only ten minutes is left in the actual service time. He then uses remaining moments for congregational testimonials as an expression of “encouraging one another.” He concludes by saying, “I guess we’re out of time today, we’ll have to pick up the text again next week… but hasn’t the fellowship been sweet this morning?” Field Goal: getting at least something out of a poorly prepared sermon. Safety: proof that no one on the elder board had your pastor's "back." Touchdown: preaching the gospel in all its truth and seeing a non-Christian come to Christ for salvation, or a believer repent of their waywardness in sanctification. Special teams: church committees and home fellowship groups. Scrimmage: informal meeting of a "special team." Extra Point: when you thought that the pastor said, “now in conclusion” at least twenty minutes ago. Fumble: when the minister mispronounces a key word or O.T. name in his message, quotes the wrong verse, or theologically misspeaks and everyone notices. Penalty Flag: when a member of the church acts like a faithful Berean in confronting the pastor(s) when something unbiblical was preached and affirmed. Game ball: the Bible. Home-field advantage: where long-time attendees think they are entitled to sit when newcomers show up. Dime back: giving a tenth of your income. Huddle: Meeting of the elders and pastoral staff. Head coach: the pastor. Reverse: a former Arminian who is now Reformed. Too many men on the field: congregational rule. Interference: when pragmatics captures the hearts of some of the members absent of sound doctrine—methods vs. message. Incompletion: John Mark. Unsportsmanlike conduct: when tolerated undisciplined sin manifests itself. Winning percentage: sanctification is daily occurring. Quarterback Sneak: when the pastor makes a move that the elders and deacons weren’t prepared for. Draw Play: what children do with the church bulletin during worship. Half-time: the period between Sabbath School/Sunday School and the main worship service where many choose to leave. Backfield-in-Motion/Man in Motion: too many restroom or water fountain runs during the service. Staying in the Pocket: what happens to a lot of money that should be given to the Lord's work. Two-minute Warning: the point at which you realize the sermon is almost over, but it somehow goes on for another half an hour. Instant Replay: the minister forgets his notes and falls back on last week's sermon. Sudden Death: what happens to a church where sin is tolerated. Trap: you're called on to pray the benediction and sleep through your cue. End Run: taking the long way around a difficult situation. Flex Defense: the ability to allow absolutely nothing said during the sermon to affect your life. Halfback Option: the decision of 75% of the congregation not to return for the evening service. Screen Play: using video and PowerPoint as part of your Sabbath/Sunday morning worship. Blitz: the rush to the parking lot to get to the restaurant first following the closing prayer.

Quote: So the ones trying to follow the Bible are considered conservative? That seemed to be at least a point of agreement among those on the Theology of Ordination Study Committee - neither POV, for or against WO, conservative or progressive, could claim or be characterized as following, or not, the Bible more so or less so than those in disagreement. Likewise, that sort of observation does not help the discussion, nor advance either POV effectively. It only serves to side-track and demonize those who disagree and ultimately is a thinly disguised ad hominem tactic. So stop it.

nope, you're not a "wolf"... they're the ones that come into the forum, solely to let everyone here know we all should follow *their* brand of beliefs... you don't strike me as being that type of person.. Honest questions and "searching" is good..

Good topic fccool! Having been in the SDA church for 40+ years and then leaving I see your point clearly and agree. I LOVED being an SDA! I went to SDA schools, dated SDA girls, married an SDA, worked for the SDA health system, ate SDA food, drank SDA drinks and best of all, ate at SDA potlucks! One reason I loved it was because I knew that I was "right". It broke my heart to leave but after a significant time studying scripture I could no longer support a church which refused to change doctrine, even when it was clearly shown (in my opinion of course) that the doctrines and beliefs were not consistent with the Word of God. Since leaving 3-4 years ago I have encountered numerous friends and family who while being "faithful" SDA's were completey unable to justify or show me their beliefs in the Word. For them it was enough "knowing" that they were right and there was no way I could be right. Not even on one single point. Shalom