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Point 0: It's 'Hawking'. Not 'Hawkins', not 'Hawkings'. Let's try to get that right, shall we? Point 1: The OP is basically a version of Pascal's Wager - on which more in the post below. Point 2: The claim that 'When I use Scripture it is pure Scripture speaking (not my own interpretation or the context from which I rip it and in which I place it)' shows nothing except that the person making the claim is blind to his/her own biases. Confusing one's own personal beliefs with objective truth does not mean that those beliefs *are* objective truth. It just means one is confused.

You guys make the arguement that because Steven Hawkings is an atheist that he will not be loved and brought into heaven because he has rejected the Law Giver.... Perhaps you remember your "Chronicles of Narnia" series where after the Last Battle, Emeth talks to Aslan- “Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.” would you say that Steven Hawkings is truely seeking? If so, perhaps, though an Atheist, we shall see him in Heaven...

TrevorL: The doctrine of the Trinity is an exceedingly complex doctrine that is not well understood by, probably, most people. In the early days of our developing Church, there ws a subset of leaders, to include James White who did not believe in the Trinity. These people largely came from a group known as the Christian Connection. With the passage of time, many ot these people, to include Ellen White, became Trinitarian. Yes, the SDA CHurch is officially Trinitarian. However, the SDA denominaiton of today is a diverse group of people who are not in total agreement in many areas of belief and practice. As such there is a subset of people who are not Trinitarian. and do remain members in good standing, as is true for other areas of belief. With the rise of "Fundamentalism" in our culture today, there is a desire of some of our members to return to what they believe to be the historic beleifs of early SDA leaders. In actual fact, they do not always udnerstand what those historic beleifs are. The result is that a subset of this gorup advocated a return to a non-Trinitarian view. This is being strongly advocated by some today. The subject of the Tinity is discussed in volumne 12, of THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST BIBLE COMMENTARY: HANDBOOK OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST THEOLOGY, and primarily on pages 120 - 129. The book that I cited in the begining post is a much larger work which consists of 234 pages. I intend to purchase it, but I will need to wait a bit to do so. In any case, I encourage those who are interested in this subject to read widely on the subject and to suggest that the two books that I have mentioned will be helpful for understanding the SDA background. NOTE: As to the book mentioned in the opening post, It is available from Amazon, and can be shipped from a United States location, or it can be ordered direct from the publisher, and shipped form Europe.

part of the issue is that we try to place God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit into "human" constructs, when we really have no idea what constitutes God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

As you may know, in a shalom race the skier must pass through about 20 "gates" in the fastest time. Well, it happened that Israel had the fastest slalom skier in the world and had great expectations for an Olympic gold medal. Came the day of the final, the crowd waited in anticipation. The French champion sped down the course in 38 seconds. The Swiss in 38.7 seconds, the German in 37.8 seconds and the Italian in 38.1 seconds. Next came the Israeli's turn ... the crowd waited, and waited...six minutes! "What happened to you?" screamed his trainer when the Israeli finally arrived. Replied the exhausted Israeli: "Which of those idiots put a mezuzah on each gate?"

http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=813 http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=1498

What is it gonna cost you if you want to change the world.....? Even those who want to kill you? I am reminded of the Good Samaritan who took a Jewish victum under his care, bound up his wounds and put him in a hospital and paid for his hospital bill and promised to pay the balance if that wasn't enough....This samaritian listened to this jew and his arguments for the disgusting arguments that they were God's choisen people too...and probably came to blows over those arguements with other jews [not this one though] ...He probably added to the arguement of the high mindedness of the rabbis and Saddusees..... So, what is it gonna cost YOU?

From what has the believer been saved? Or is being saved? I doubt there is any such thing as instant sanctification since in my own life I see God has to deal with either my stubbornness, or ignorance. Sometimes sin just seems justified, certain feelings indulged, justified. Other times I really had no idea it was sin...peeling that onion, layer after layer. I also think we probably make this whole sin thing far more complicated than it really is. I struggled in a certain area for decades, begged God, beat myself up as I have been taught by some poor churchies, blah, blah....then I just concentrated on "For it is God Who works in you both to will and to do...". When I saw myself doing what I wished to give up and the temptation would come to give up, feel hopeless, despair, all that good stuff, or try in some way even tho I had never succeeded before, I would put everything out of my mind and concentrate on that verse, and a couple of others. Then one day my "will" had been worked enough by God, that He was now able to empower me to do. Over time thoughts had come to me that I could accept or reject and as I accepted them, they transformed my mind, my thinking. And I was now empowered and found myself no longer doing it. The same has been becoming true in some other areas, ways of dealing with certain issues...Am I sinless? You know what they say: "A watched pot never boils". LOL I don't need to worry about it. I just need to look to Jesus, and not to how bad or hopeless I may be. He has been pretty good at letting me know when and what I need to change. I either accept or reject. But worrying one way or another isn't, hasn't, done me a bit of good in my 63 years. Works pretty good. Self- and other- condemnation will never change or transform anyone. Neither will hopelessness, or navel gazing, or listening to what man considers sin, or whatever else we do. Only looking to Jesus and filling my mind with His word. Oh, and I did have some support from some good people in this journey also.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion! Sounds rather isolationist, maybe even not so caring of others needs.

8Let all the earth fear the LORD; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. 9For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. Psalms 33 Sounds pretty clear to me. Fits the big bang theory too. You know the one, "He spoke and 'BANG', it was." God is Love! Jesus saves!

A rabbi friend said that abuse is adultery. Adultery is broader than what is often thought of. EGW, later on her life, told women to get their kids and get out of that house.

Remember this.. This is a HOT issue.. HOWEVER it is NOT a Pass/Fail issue for heaven.

Hmm. Interesting indeed. Let's not forget that Peter was most likely regularly armed around Jesus, and it's unlikely that Jesus objected to it. We know that Peter used his weapon at least once, in defense of another person, specifically Jesus. Had that been today, it would have been a 9mm bullet in Malchus' chest. And I'm sure Jesus would have reacted the same. "Dude, chill" to Peter, and "My friends bad. Let me get that" as he healed Malchus' wound. That was a Christian protecting a fellow human against imminent danger. The same as we who have the heart to carry today will do if called on to act. Back then, it was a sword. Today, it would most likely be a pistol. No different in a historical context and considering the personal defense weapons most commonly used.

Quote: "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. "- Colossians 3:12,13, NKJV I really like this!