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One underlying theme of many doubting Divine intervention or various Biblical miracles including young earth Creation is that because we have not observed something it does not exist. Can we as human beings living in the 21st century A. D. expect to understand all things spiritual or is it reasonable to expect this? If we lived 400 years ago and could see much of the technology in use today, such as cell phones, we might think that we were observing witchcraft. If a doctor living in the 1700's was told that heart transplants would one day take place he would be unlikely to believe it. My grandmother, who used to bring her farm produce to town to sell in a horse and buggy, lived to watch men walk on the moon. The scientific findings of today would be beyond belief 130 years ago. So why do we assume we can understand all things spiritual? Do we think our intelligence quotients, even if they are high for our day and time, are higher than those of angels? Can we understand how the good ones work and how they bring help to human beings, or how the bad ones work? Do we think we are as knowledgeable as they? Or is there a role for faith in not assuming we can understand all of the technical aspects of spiritual things, because we do not have the knowledge, the background, or at times even the intellect, to understand it all? What we can have is wisdom, the wisdom of trusting God. But knowledge is relative.

I should explain - I said these kinds of questions are boring, but started the thread with one! My point was that tightening the by-laws of the club is counterproductive. Jesus' attitude was 'go out to the highways and byways and compel them to come in', not 'find arcane rules to keep them out'. Deciding that others don't get to be in the club because they are not like us is the direct opposite of what He stood for and stands for.

On reading about the new Jerusalem coming down, which is after the millenium, I wonder if ther will be animals in it which will populate this earth after the fires of hell sterelize it. That might include trees and plants which will seed this world. Never thought about that before.

Speaking as a white person.....I was taught to always answer with a 'no sir' and a 'yes sir' regardless of circumstances. I lived in the south where small town police looked at everyone as suspicious, especially teen agers! So, for me, I have never understood why anyone would argue or even look like they were confronting law enforcement. To me, again, that seems way to dangerous. The NEWS is full of everyday assurances where people have done that in one form or another and have been injured or ultimately arrested for that behavior. With the publics attitude towards anyone in authority today, what we see continuing to happen, should not be surprising. IF racial prejudiced is involved, things can and are often much worse. I have friends and know of other persons in law enforcement who all say that dealing with the public is an extremely difficult job today, and becoming more so. Police are being shot at more often, according to the daily NEWs reports, so I would image every situation of confrontation is extremely dangerous to them in their mind. Disrespect leads to so many of todays problems from the workplace, at home, driving and everywhere. Society needs to learn respect for others goes along ways in preserving safety for ones self.

"It’s been growing over the last few decades. And to be honest, it’s a troubling theme. And if this current generation of worship leaders doesn’t change this theme, then corporate worship in evangelicalism really is headed for a major crash. "It’s the theme of performancism. The worship leader as the performer. The congregation as the audience. The sanctuary as the concert hall. It really is a problem. It really is a thing. And we really can’t allow it to become the norm. "Worship leaders, we must identify and kill performancism while we can. It’s not rocket science. Sing songs people know (or can learn easily). Sing them in congregational keys. Sing and celebrate the power, glory and salvation of God. Serve your congregation. Saturate them with the word of God. Get your face off the big screen (here’s why). Use your original songs in extreme moderation (here’s why). Err on the side of including as many people as possible in what’s going on. Keep the lights up. "Stop talking so much. Don’t let loops/lights/visuals become your outlet for creativity at the expense of the centrality of the gospel. Point to Jesus. Don’t draw attention to yourself. Don’t sing songs with bad lyrics or weak theology. Tailor your worship leading, and the songs you pick, to include the largest cross-section of your congregation that you can. Lead pastorally. "I am a worship music nerd. I listen to a lot of it. I follow the recent developments. I know who’s out there (sort of). I try to keep up (it’s not easy). Even I didn’t know most of the songs that we were supposed to be singing along to at the conference. I tuned out. I sat down. I tweeted. I texted my wife. I gave up. "You’re not reading the ramblings of a curmudgeony guy complaining about all the new-fangled things the kids are doing these days, with their drums and tom-toms and electric geetars. You’re reading the heart-cry of a normal guy who’s worried about what worship leaders are doing to themselves and their congregations. "People are tuning out and giving up and just watching. This is not a criticism of the National Worship Leader Conference, though I do think they could make some changes to more intentionally model an approach to worship leading that isn’t so weighted on the performance side. As I said, the conference exposes us to what’s out there in the (primarily) evangelical worship world. "It’s what’s out there that’s increasingly a problem. "Worship leaders: Step back. Take a deep breath. Think about it. Do we really want to go down this road? It will result in a crash. Back up. Recalibrate. Serve your congregations, point them to Jesus, help them sing along and sing with confidence. Get out of the way, for God’s sake." clipped from: http://www.churchleaders.com/worship/worship-articles/175020-jamie-brown-evangelical-worship-headed-for-a-huge-crash.html/1

I think I did get you wrong. Sorry. I get and appreciate what you're saying. Thanks for seeking to reflect the truth.

Hi Joshua, For a different take on the "Final Judgment - Lake of Fire", there's a study at my website. I do not believe that those judged at the Great White Throne final judgment are alive, or conscious. They "stand" before God, only in the sense of their records. Their is not third resurrection. They died physically, either at the Second Coming (consumed by the glory of God) or at Gog-Magog. Both of these would involve some degree of torment. (The GWT Judgment follows Gog-Magog.) The "second death" is a different TYPE of death. It is God's memory of them (like a heavenly download from the mind) which will be destroyed in the special "lake of fire" so that these persons can never be resurrected again. Only then will they be DEAD, to God. Rachel Cory Prophecy Viewpoint

that's interesting... Reminds me of the post-WWII airlifts to brings Jews to Israel. My uncle was one of the pilots who flew for the Flying Tigers and airlifted refugees from all over Europe and the Near East under extremely dangerous conditions.

On her blog, Over the Big Moon, Lisa Henderson writes: Now before you all go crazy on me in the comments, let me explain. We have not cancelled putting up decorations, celebrating the birth of our Savior, or any of our other heartwarming traditions. But, we have cancelled presents, Santa, and stockings. Their letters to Santa this year will be asking Santa to find someone who needs their presents more. Here is why – John and I feel like we are fighting a very hard uphill battle with our kids when it comes to entitlement. Our kids have been acting so ungrateful lately. They expect so much even when their behavior is extremely disrespectful. We gave them good warning, either it was time for their behavior to change or there would be consequences. We patiently worked with them for several months and guess what, very little changed. One day after a particularly bad display of entitlement John said, “we should just cancel Christmas.” And, so that’s what we did. Instead we will be taking the money we would have spent on presents and put it towards service projects and giving gifts to others this season. We are trying to teach them the pleasure of giving rather than continuing to feed their childhood desire for more. Henderson joined “Fox and Friends” this morning, explaining that the family is still celebrating, but trying to instill in the children that Christmas is “not all about getting.” She added that the couple’s decision is about teaching their kids that bad behavior has a consequence and to lessen their sense of entitlement. “It doesn’t mean it has to be a negative consequence. We are having a blast turning this into a different kind of gift,” said Henderson. Well-done Mom and Dad! Kids need to learn that they don’t need everything right now and that they can enjoy themselves and celebrating by thinking of others.

The leaders who followed the disciples/apostles were ordained by humans. Some would say that the disciple/apostle who replaced Judas was ordained by humans.

My heart longs for two things - my family and the truth. That's it: pretty simple! I'm afraid that much of what would constitute being a 'pure SDA' no longer appears to me as truth. I'm sure I'll get beaten with the Scripture stick for that, but it is what it is. I've probably said it before, but 'is it or isn't it?' questions are tedious and pointless to me. 'Is it or isn't it art?' or 'Is it or isn't it science?' - they're about definitions, and since people have different definitions these debates can never be resolved. Is s/he or isn't s/he an SDA? is a similarly bootless argument. My own inclination would be to leave it between the person and God. If someone is human they deserve my full love and respect. If someone is a good person, I want that person around me. The brand matters not a whit.

Is there ever a time when the feelings of innocent white people are considered? Did the scumbags looting and rioting care a fig about the black businesses they looted and destroyed. Or is it only those that will riot and loot that must have their feelings understood Had Micheal Brown not acted like a thug and terrorized a store owner and then stealing from him there would not be a riot where they destroy the town they live in. Had he not gone charging after the police officer in his car no one would have been hurt. By the time Brown reached the age he is,you can almost count on the fact this was not his first theft or the first time in intimidating someone. Maybe it goes back further even than that.Maybe if mom and dad had raised this guy instead of dumping him on grandma,with consideration and respect for the rights of others he would have been the gentle giant mom claims he was.The so called step-father in name only since the beginning of this year is a convicted felon with more than one time being incarcerated.

I know a few black people here and there. In fact 70% of my congregation is black. They all would say looting and burning is wrong. The fact that you felt you need to post this video shows that you don't understand how black people feel. The guy in the video is the norm.

The following section in Club Adventist contain more material on this issue and Dr. Lawson: The above section gives a direct contact for Dr. Lawson.

Seventh-day Adventists and Hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVBptfAxGOs http://archives.adventistreview.org/article/92/archives/issue-2005-1540/adventist-news http://www.history.ucsb.edu/projects/holocaust/Research/Proseminar/corrieschroder.htm http://www.adventistpeace.org/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/1495/Blaich-Divided-Loyalties-2002.pdf http://www.formeradventist.com/discus/messages/5291/896.html?1034289667 http://www.oakwood.edu/historyportal/Ejah/2011/Anti-Semitism%20in%20Germany.htm http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/43851/13242139/Seventh-day_Adventist_support_of_and_participation_in_Hitlers_Nazi_regime_... While not listed in the above, SDA Ronald Lawson has written quite a bit if importance on this issue: Ronald Lawson: Professor Emeritus at Queens College, CUNY Demographic info Greater New York City Area Higher Education Current Professor Emeritus at Queens College, CUNY Past Assistant Professor at Hunter College, CUNY Education City University of New York-Queens College, The University of Queensland, University of Queensland, Australia Summary research and publish about American-born religious groups, especially Seventh-day Adventists, but also Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses.am com... NOTE: Lawson's work is critical to this issue. I wish that I could locate it on the Internet. The bottom line: This is a very complex issue. For many years the documentation of the SDA Church's cooperation with Hitler has been burried. It is only in recent times that SDA and other historians have begun to uncover and evaulate the documentation for thils. What I have reviewed here is only the beginning and not very specific. Lawson reveals much more. I personally believe that there is much more than is known now. In any case, the above links are only a start. NOTE: Dr. Lawson has written about SDAs in other areas that may be of interest to you. These works are more easily available on the Internet.

From now on, I think I am going to avoid above-ground planting, such as pots or raised beds. I'm thinking that the rotting wood in the hugel beds tends to act like a sponge. While roots tend to not penetrate hard clay, which doesn't really hold much water, they dive right in to the moist, soft decaying wood.

I too have met others who were ungracious liberals etc. The article cited briefly in the above posts referred to Ellen White statements about those church leaders who rejected the 1888 message and sought to upheld a rigid authoritarian status quo. While she does not use the word conservative, seeking to maintain the status quo is one of the main definitions of conservative, so by definition, they were conservative. She also says others treated like this would either throw off all restraint or think of God as a hard Master. However I was hoping to look beyond the extreme conservative or liberal viewpoints or even evaluating them and look instead to what she says may have been behind *some* of the polarization we now see- a rejection of faith in Christ's Righteousness. I believe the primary emphasis of the Ellen White quotes Gibson cited was that a neglect of this would cause various problems in the church. The only solution is His grace and power in our lives.

Archaeology is a science some believe was initiated for the precise reason of proving the Bible was undependable/inconsistent at the least, and a borrowed fraud at the worst. In either case, the main agenda was said to be of "scientifically" proving "yet again" the Word of God could not be depended upon. Biblical archaeology arose as a field with the main when evidence began to accumulate from various excavations that people and places mentioned in the Bible were being verified as historical occurrences. I agree with Gregory - Biblical archaeology is indeed a mixed bag of results. As always, knowledge that is accepted and contributory, and that which is not, depends on a large extent on who one is talking to in the field. Secular, religious, and political agendas all contribute to make for a messy discourse. The field itself has within it two main schools of thought (with a spectrum of thought between them), with considerable debate as to what various findings really mean. It is by no means "settled". One case where this is very evident is that of the Ebla Tablets, found during excavations made in 1974-75. Some 1700-1800 clay tablets were found in this site, mostly of economic and royal business. Translating the Sumerian cuneiform text revealed a wealth of treasure in available knowledge about the complexity of the regional economies of the age. Some linguistics researchers also noted considerable advances in the method and usage of text language, compared to other tablets of the same era from surrounding excavations. In the secular aspect, this excavation was heralded at the time to be a major contribution to understanding early Bronze Age society. Controversy did not arise until translators found within the economic records the city's business and trade with one Abraham, a wealthy nomad in the Canaan region, and records noting extensive trade with city-states named Zoar, Sodom, and Gomorrah - as well as these city-states sudden destruction. It seems these three Biblical city-states were major players in the regional economy. The former (Abraham) did not elicit too much controversy; the latter (the city-states), however, did. Until the mid-70's, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were relegated to "Biblical mythology". Now, extra-Biblical evidence aged from the same time provided solid evidence the account of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed valid. I refer back to my comment about secular, religious, and political agendas. The firestorm which erupted had Zionists claiming proof for their claims of a homeland far in advance of the Muslim claim. Muslim political and religious authorities outright rejected both the claims and translated clay tablets. Christian authorities took the evidence as proof of the Bible's historicity and veracity, and secular scientists naturally poo-pooed such claims as exaggerations placed upon the research published. Who is right? We may never know. The tablets are currently unavailable for research - the Syrian government refused to grant further research once the Sodom and Gomorrah issue erupted. With the current political and religious situation in Syria now, there is speculation the tablets have been (or will be) "edited" (aka, offending tablets destroyed). Current thought among many scholars is that the Ebla findings now contribute "very little" to the understanding to this age in the realm of Biblical archaeology. However, this becomes a case where some want to have their cake and eat it as well. The notable findings of economic complexity in the early Bronze Age, coupled with the advances found in linguistics, are still held with little controversy and high regard. Yet, the same evidence also revealed proof of Biblical persons, places, and historicity - this is regarded with distaste among the same scientists as "inconclusive". These tablets seem to fall into the category of whether one side of the coin can be accepted as true while regarding the flip side of the coin to be false - a false premise which is more commonly used in otherwise intelligent discourse than people like to admit. Blessings,