Leaderboard

Robert, I like this very much. I believe that we need to be dividing the word of God in this way. Have you seen the thought in Lamentations? (Similar in principle, I think, to the verses you've shared here.) "He hath cut off in His fierce anger all the horn of Israel: He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy, and He burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about." (Lam 2:3) That special Providence which used to protect the chosen people had been "drawn back" [pushed away]. Israel was left exposed, and the [figurative] fire which was devouring them, God ascribes to Himself.

Thank you Ted. I appreciate the thoughts you've shared on this. Satan's "insane choice"... what an eloquent expression ! And yes, "...The fool rages and is confident." (Prov 14:16) But could I run something by you? When God manifested Himself in the Sanctuary, the "death zone" for deliberate, conscious, sin was relatively small. Fire flashed out upon Nadab and Abihu while they were in the Courtyard. When God manifested Himself to a greater extent upon Mt. Sinia, the "death zone" was correspondingly larger. It took in the whole mountain. When God manifests Himself in the eternal City, I believe the "death zone" will be larger again. Now I do not know how far out this could be extrapolated... Do you know what I mean? But if His glory fills the entire universe (which must be possible, and which, I believe, was the original design), then sin would not be capable of surviving anywhere.

Do people really drink coffee for its antioxidant and anti-cancer properties/ I HAVE already acknowledged that there are some medicinal/legitimate uses for caffeine. But if you are healthy, would you take digitalis for its medicinal properties? Why would you choose coffee for its little antioxidant and anti-cancer properties when you can get far more antioxidants from a bowl of blueberries or muscadine grapes, or anti-cancer properties from broccoli or kale without the jitters and adrenaline rush?

The Law did not "start with Moses". That is a very popular deception currently playing in Christendom at present. The Law always has been, and always will be, Just as the Living God always has been, and always will be. If God's Law did not predate Moses, then how could the angel becoming Satan be convicted as sinning, seeing how the Word itself states sin is the transgression of the Law (Romans 4:15; 1 John 3:4)? Likewise, Adam and Eve? It is because wherever God is, there His character is, and thus is present the foundation of His government - His Law. The Law describes God's character, which is the very foundation of His government. As such, there has never been a time when there wasn't Law, for God is the very embodiment of the Law. Paul was stating in Romans 5 that even though the Law wasn't yet written down on tablets of stone, it still existed, and death - taking advantage of the Law (Romans 7:11-12) - was ever and always the legacy sinful man has inherited, all the way back to Adam. Two tablets of stone at Sinai didn't change that fact. In Romans 5, Paul is setting up his argument that any human who has ever been called to life can only escape sin and death through Jesus Christ - from Adam to Moses to his day, and now down through history to our day today. Man has one inheritance forced upon him by sin; however, one can choose a different inheritance in Jesus Christ. Enoch looked to the same Jesus we do. Moses looked upon Jesus as his Rock of salvation - just as we sing of Christ today. Elijah - in spite of his many passions - was anchored in Christ. All three were taken into heaven by God's grace - not a single one ascended there under their own force of will. They were in heaven on the condition that Christ - their New Adam - would succeed in His mission to reconnect the human race back to God, the source of all life. Their very existence was tied to Christ's. Christ failing to broker again that living connection between Himself and the human race meant all three would ceased to exist in an instant. The saints raised from the grave in Matthew 27:52, 53 were tied to this very fact as well. I don't think these were raised as Lazarus was raised - I believe they were resurrected as was Moses. They are in heaven, ministering under Christ, even today. Indeed, there are at least 24 people (the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5) who are representing the human race in heaven. Yes, God has submitted Himself to be judged by His sentient creatures. Humans are in heaven, reviewing the same evidence which has been submitted to the angels. Revelation 4:11 will be their verdict. And for all these who have preceded the faithful, not one has been given consent to return and describe for us sinners the glories there, and the truth about God. Why? Exodus 34:29-35 gives us the reason: if sinners could not bear the fading glory found in Moses' face after his being with God for 40 days, what of the glory found in the face of any who would return to earth to testify of God, having been in the presence of God not for 40 days, but for ~2000 years now? Only a few of the living today have the faith to stand in the presence of such reflected glory. Most of us would hide or flee. Blessings,

Just wondering, Gregory what you will read. Maybe there will be writers in the new earth. Personally I will have to work. I am a Martha. And I have it all planned out. I am going to set up a tourist business and plan tours to the galaxy. If you have a book there, I will read it too.

The Messenger has never been better than when Stan took it over. Canada can be proud!

May I suggest something else here, Kevin? Surrounding God there is an area sometimes referred to as the "sea of glass". This, I suggest, has specific bounds, and God warns people not to come onto it unless they are properly prepared. When God gave Moses specific directions to prepare the people for the giving of the Law, one of His warnings was contained in this : "And the LORD said unto [Moses], Away, get thee down, and [later] you shall come [back] up -- you, and Aaron with you: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest He break forth upon them." (Exodus 19:24) It was a dangerous time for the people, and if they had come beyond the specified bounds -- if they had come too close to God -- many of them would have died. God's attitude/plea seems to be, "Don't come too close to Me, or you will die." When Satan finally leads his people against the City Of God, God is still the same... but as Satan passes onto the Sea of Glass, he suddenly becomes the spark that will consume the entire world. The Sea of Glass (perhaps unseen at that point,) quickly becomes a thunderous Lake of Fire. It is only after this, that God will wipe away every tear, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. (Rev 21:1-4)

The following quote from the book, Great Controversy, applies to the future, but could the principle be applied to the past as well? To Lucifer and his angels? "A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." (GC p.542.) Is it possible that this represents the 'mechanics' of how the Devil was "cast out" of heaven? Is God's mode of warfare so much higher than man's way, so as to make it almost unrecognisable as "war"? We naturally associate "war" with force and aggression, but is that God's way too? Heaven's "purity, holiness, and peace would be [AND FINALLY WAS] torture to them. The glory of God would be [AND WAS] a consuming fire. They would long to flee [AND DID FLEE] from that holy place."

Incredible: Not really. On some level that is seen in most of the SDA forums, to include this one.

The Greatest False Idol Of Modern Christianity - http://johnpavlovitz.com/2015/01/15/the-greatest-false-idol-of-modern-christianity/

Coffee drinking is not something I would place in the same category as breaking the 10 commandments because there may be times it is the best course medicinally. I do not choose to drink it recreationally. I feel differently with a significant amount of caffeine- a bit jittery. I also believe we should seek to live in a way that is most healthful and without unneeded jitters.

If caffeine affects the ability of someone to "hear" God, then all those people who use prescribed and OTC caffeine for migraines would not be able to "hear" God clearly. That would pose a dilemma...if it was true.. Can God not make Himself heard even through the mistiest of times? Would God really want someone to suffer through migraine headaches when He has provided a source of relief?

I can see that perspective harmonizing with Scripture. God doesn't cast consuming fire upon sin - He IS a consuming fire with respect to sin. Sin simply cannot endure the presence of a Holy God - sin brings with it death by fire should it approach God close enough. Such is Satan's current "hell" - always wanting the throne of God for himself, yet never being able to come close enough to God to fight and live. Such unsatisfied coveting and yearning will drive him to make the insane choice - to try to approach God directly and survive the fight. Sin, and those identifying with it, find only a fiery consumption awaiting them...not because God sends it, but because that is the natural consequence occurring when sin comes in close proximity to God. Blessings,

I think we greatly misunderstand what is meant by Babylon. The call out of Babylon is equated to the call out of exile, to return home. It is call, not to apostates, but a call to God own people to end their exile and go home to the Promised Land.

Something to think about:

I like the idea of having two worship services so a person could choose which to attend. I've also heard of SS classes where the members had the option of staying to continue discussions, even while the worship service was in progress..

9:15-9:30 is the song service. Then from 9:30-10:00 is our Sabbath School program. !0:00-10:45 is our Sabbath School Bible study. 11:00-till it's over is the Worship time. An hour before sunset is our AY and it lasts just an hour. On Wednesday nights at 7:00 is prayer meeting, and they usually have a children's program simultaneously. Then on the last Sunday of each month at 11:00 is a Women's Ministry Bible Study.

The indications are that the antioxidant benefits of tea likely trumps any mild downside effects of caffeine. The antioxidant value is long-term while the caffeine effect is short lived in comparison. The same would be true of the potential anti cancer impact of various types, diabetes prevention/management, alzheimer risk reduction, etc. of coffee drinking. For those in high risk for any of these areas, drinking a moderate amount of coffee would seem to be worth it. It has also been long recognized that in attentional disorders that caffeine can work in the same way as Ritalin to control hyperactivity and improve focus. I have seen that firsthand. I had heard of that possibility and observed it working once when my son was in elementary school. I was a designated driver on a field trip an hour or two away from school and had the misfortune to having one of his classmates in my group that had missed his dose of Ritalin. On the return trip he was practically bouncing off the ceiling of the van. We stopped at one point and the kid ran into the Taco Bell and came out with a large Mountain Dew. He quickly drank the whole thing. I was thinking to my self that all that caffeine was the last thing a hyperactive kid needed! He very quickly started to calm down and and was sound asleep before we got back to the school.

I understand what you're saying JoeMo. But I believe that God loves my tormentor just as much as He loves me. God would have us love our enemies, and pray prayers like, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". The Lord is ready to grant such prayers, I believe. Our tormentors, molesters, and abusers (both human and angelic) are loved with the same everlasting love that we are. Many people find this prospect to be too much, too extreme, because this idea is quite ruinous to any desire we might have for retaliation or revenge.

Interesting thoughts Kevin. Thank you. And yet, I cannot see how God can continue to wear His love "hat" while He publicly executes His enemies. (I hope this "hats" analogy is an acceptable one for the readers.) To me, the thought that God loves with an "everlasting love" says a great deal about Him. But if, in reality, the love of God is "everlasting" for the Redeemed only, then Divine love is 'selective' and God appears to be partial in the greatest, most glorious, feature of His character. Paul was persuaded that not even "death" has the power to separate a person from the love of God... I would go so far as to suggest that the Second Death is included in this. Even when root and branch (Satan and all the wicked) are gone, the love of God will continue for them. I have no doubt about this. But in my view we all have much to learn about the love of God --- much to learn before we can represent Him to the extent that it is necessary. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour..." (Rom 13:10) If we must ask "Who is our neighbour?", or "Who is God's neighbour?", then perhaps we are still babes, and not yet ready for solid food. For many of the lost, the lake of fire will not bring a quick death, will it? A large number will burn for "many days". It will 'go ill' for them. How does God literally love His enemies "to death", when Love "worketh no ill"?

Let us remember that life is more than a physically beating heart. Our prayers should also be that if her heart continues to beat that she will be restored to a functional life. I have a relative who at a young age sustained a major injury to his head. He has been fully restored to a functional life. He has a graduate degree and is employed by a State agency. You would never know that he spent years in a wheel chair. His rehab took 20 years! I kid you not. Our prayers should be comprehensive--restoration and peace through the process, however long it takes.

In a nutshell The 1st message is the restoration of the gospel. It is the preaching of the everlasting gospel as preached by the Apostles. The 2nd message warns of Babylon's fall. This message specifically points out the sins of Babylon. It is a message that exposes the whore of Babylon. The 3rd message is a stern warning to those who remain in Babylon. Those who receive her mark of authority will come under the curse of the law. They will suffer the second death. Slowing this message down is what Ellen White refers to as "the superficial, conservative class" within Adventism: “The work which the church has failed to do (present the 3 messages of the angel of Rev 14) in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us.” {Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 5, 463.2}

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation and tribe and language and people. 1st message: 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come; and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water." 2nd message: 8 Then another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." 3rd message: 9 Then another angel, a third, followed them, crying with a loud voice, "Those who worship the beast and its image, and receive a mark on their foreheads or on their hands, 10 they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Thanks Robert, Yes I do like that link. I am familiar with the ideas, and the book "Light on the Dark Side of God." I also believe that God is "holy, harmless, and undefiled". (Heb 7:26 kjv). Oh that we might be able to have this said about us!

ADHD overdiagnosed: Yes, and probably widely. Ritilan overused: Well known. However, the truth of the above does not mean that it is not a real condition. Your "deal with it" is actually a valid, at least partial response. E.G. Appropriate treatment may involve much more than a simple Rx for Ritilan.

Hi Stewart, It's good to hear from you. Hi Kevin H, You are right when you point out that we need to consider that the "casting out" could occur on more than one occasion. The first was before the creation as EGW tells us and at that time the loyal angels accepted God's word, and then the lessson book began with the creation. There was a second "casting out" at the cross when they SAW God's word in action as Satan tried to get his minions to kill the Son of God. And there will be another one when redeemed humanity also casts him out of their lives forever.

The poet/philosopher Eli Siegel pointed out that "All beauty is a making one of opposites." I have written about my understanding of hell fire several times and it is late and I need to sleep. God does kill, however the issue is how he kills. He treats all of us the same. He is the consuming fire. He is the ever lasting burning fire, it is the fire of his love and beauty. We all of us have two attitudes fighting inside of us. Our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. A disposition to esteem our selves more highly then our breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. Fighting this is that our deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as he has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts. When we see Jesus at the end in person, as we see the Father in all his glory it will be the beauty that all the beauty we know are but dim reflections of. Grace is irresistible. It is either heaven or hell to be with this beauty. For those of us who have been yielding to the Holy Spirit it becomes heaven. But for the others, they are also overwhelmingly attracted to Jesus. They want to come and be with him and other loved ones in the city. However they see their sins in contrast to the purity of Jesus and see the ugliness of their sins. Unlike the saved who respond to this by casting their crowns and sing "Worthy is the Lamb" the lost are not forgiving people and thus cannot comprehend that God can forgive them. As Jesus says, the only reason why they are lost is because the are afraid to come to the light for fear of their deeds being exposed. They want to come but refuse to. Grace is irresistible. It is in God's nature to love and forgive. It is in the Holy Spirit's nature to point to the beauty and joy of Jesus, doing everything short of forcing the will. But the lost have destroyed their will and are slaves to their feelings that God would get them if their deeds are to be exposed so the fear to come to him. However they are still overwhelmed by his beauty and their longing to be with and like him. Grace is irresistible, you cannot exist resisting it. You have to either yield to it or you are unable to exist. The intensity of wanting to come but refusing to and trading the joys of heaven for the pleasure of complaining and criticizing and blaming and making excuses causes them to quite literally be ripped apart. God is both active and passive in the death of the wicked. It is a oneness of opposites as God's act that kills the lost is the same thing that makes heaven heaven for the saved. God treats us all the same, but there are the two different responses. For God to not to kill the wicked, he would simply not need to show himself. It is the act of his showing himself that makes it heaven or hell.

Yes indeed, Robert ! Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. No-one can ever mock God, because the consequences of a man's rejection will eventually overtake him. God is NOT the executioner. I do not believe that God will enact a "public execution" even when Satan and 'the sands of the sea' come against the city of God. But the Almighty says, in effect, "Do not come near to Me [unprepared], lest you die" -- just as He had said to Nadab, Abihu, and Aaron. Many do not understand the danger of fighting against God. God does not say, "If you don't do what I want you to do, then I will kill you", no, no. But rather, "if you fight against Me you will destroy yourselves." "God destroys no man..." I suspect that you know the quotes I am drawing from.

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.” – GC 36

So basically, Kevin, you can agree that [at some point] Michael led His loyal angels in a warfare in which they literally overcame evil with good? I agree that there was no other place in the universe where Satan and his angels could go. (Except perhaps that they could abide in the "great deep", which I suspect may have been interstellar space. The demon that spoke with Jesus among the Gadarenes prayed that they would not have to go there). This world (in my opinion) was the only place that had NOT been directly affected by the war in heaven, and where final decisions had not been made by the inhabitants.

I like this But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ. http://biblehub.com/philippians/3-20.htm Our mission is still the Gosple Commission. I see no other.

I would hope for a big dining room to entertain many friends, a media room where I can view interesting points from the past, a garden where animals are free to roam, with roses and a snow leopard. Come to think of it, I have already had some of these things, but will need to wait for the snow leopard and being able to view history.

I am going to post a series of threads devoted to Christmas. Some will be riddles. Other will be serious. Some may stimulate your thought. Others may challenge you. All in this series will begin with the word Christmas in the title. Have fun and be inspired. NOTE: I am indebted to Gary Councell, Director of Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries for all of these. It will take some time to post them, so they will not appear all at once.