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I just have one more thing to add to this. It's impossible for a society to survive if personal opinion is the arbitrator of that society's morals for that does nothing but ensure anarchy. That society's foundation is nothing but shifting sand.

Let's say I was born a girl, in a poor Muslim country. My father sells me (for 10 goats) in marriage to an older man who already has 3 wives. I am basically a slave. My "husband" beats me if I am not obedient. I die in childbirth at the age of 14. WHEN did I ever hear the "Gospel" ????? Jesus said, "This gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Mat 24:14 NKJ) We have always assumed that "the END" would be the Second Coming. But the SC is NOT the END of things. It is the END of this age. But it is NOT the END of Evil. Satan is released after the 7th Millennium. Gog/Magog is the END of the last of the wicked. THAT is why I believe that all of those who died in ignorance will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead", to HEAR the Gospel, and then to choose whom they will serve. The Gospel must go to every human being who has ever lived. That CANNOT happen during this age. Too many have already died in ignorance, including millions of children, and mentally disabled. My belief in The 8th Day Kingdom is based on much, much more than just wishful thinking. There is solid Biblical evidence that many from "the rest of the dead" will come to know the LORD. Here are links to a few of the chapters from my book "The 8th Day" : http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/4-An%20Ancient%20Prophecy.pdf http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/10-Kingdom%20of%20Priests.pdf http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/11-The%208th%20Day.pdf http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/14-Gog%20and%20Magog.pdf http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book%20Chapters/15-Final%20Judgment,%20Lake%20of%20Fire.pdf Blessings, Rachel Cory Prophecy Viewpoint

The "two witnesses" give a message of impending judgment. They predict "plagues". Before the ancient Day of Atonement, trumpets were sounded each day for 10 days - as a warning. Certainly, God will sound warnings before the final Day of Atonement. These are the trumpet judgments. WARNING...WARNING...WARNING... And NO - I don't believe the "two witnesses" will be only two men. I believe they will be Smyrna and Philadelphia - the only two lamps left burning, after the other 5 have been removed. They will be like Moses and Elijah, because they will have the Elijah message, and the Moses message. At the END of the 42 months, (Yup - it's the SAME time period.) the two witnesses are killed, and stay dead for 3 and a part days. (It is possible that they are only under a death penalty watch - not literally dead.) Then they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven (at the 7th trumpet). This is the Second Coming. When the 7th trumpet sounds - it is TIME for God to reward his servants the prophets and the saints (Rev. 11:18) AND to "destroy those who destroy the earth." The 7th trumpet sounds at the Second Coming!! So - back to your question as to TIMING - Stewart. I believe the messages of the 3 angels will be given during the time period when "the Beast" is revealed to his fullest, during the last 3 and a part years.

I believe that Daniel Cpt 7 is an END TIME prophecy. The Court is called into session in Heaven, WHILE the Beast with the "little horn" is trampling the remnant on the earth. The "war with the saints" ENDS when the Ancient of Days comes into the judgment scene (Dan. 7:21-22). A judgment is IMMEDIATELY made in favor of "the saints of the Most High" and it is "time" for them to possess the kingdom. The last 1260 days of persecution has not yet even begun, so how can we say that the Ancient of Days has already come into the Judgment Hall of Heaven (back in 1844)? AFTER "the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame", Daniel wrote that lives of the "rest of the beasts" were prolonged for a season and a time." The "rest of the beasts" would be (the Lion, the Bear, and the Leopard). So how can these three beasts be ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece? (See Daniel 7:11-12). These are kingdoms that are still around at the END - when the judgment sits in heaven. And NO - I do NOT BELIEVE that the 1260 "days" ended in 1798. John said that "one of his heads" - one head on the Beast with 7 heads - received a deadly wound, and that wound was healed AND THEN - AFTER that wound was healed all the world maraveled and followed the beast, and worshiped the beast, and worshiped the dragon, and the BEAST was given a mouth, (The mouthpiece for the Beast is the False Prophet.) and he was given authority to continue for 42 months = 1260 days = time, times and a part. The LAST period of persecution for 42 months comes at the END of this age. It did NOT END in 1798. The people who lived thru the "great disappointment" believed that Jesus HAD ENTERED into Judgment, and would be returning within 7 years, so they had to find reasons to believe that all those prophecies were fulfilled in the PAST. I don't blame them. But they were WRONG.

...and those who are not moral absolutists do *not* believe 'murder is OK if you don't get caught'. They think preserving life is one of the very highest values. But they think through the hard questions of killing in self-defense, killing in defense of others, killing in war, the death penalty and all the other situations in which 'thou shalt not kill' does not provide sufficient moral guidance.

The FIRST angel's message is: "Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth." Seventh-day Adventists interpret this passage in the context of William Miller's preaching concerning the 2300 "days", believing that an "investigative judgment" began in heaven on October 22nd, 1844. Let me explain WHY I do not believe this doctrine. 1. Jesus said, ""My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (Joh 10:27 NKJ) He does NOT need 175+ years to decide which human beings belong to Him, and which do not. 2. IT DOES NOT FIT THE TYPES The "Spring types" were fulfilled day for day, type for type. Even Mrs. White said, "The Fall type will be fulfilled in like manner". Passover took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. First Fruits took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. Pentecost took place ON ONE DAY. So did the fulfillment. Which would mean that the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy will take place WITHIN ONE DAY. The High Priest (Jesus), along with the "fit man" (Jesus) must complete all of the events associated with the Day of Atonement on ONE DAY. 3. THE SCAPEGOAT HAS NOT YET BEEN BANISHED TO 'the pit" The "scapegoat" was banished ON THE SAME DAY that the High Priest entered into the Most Holy Place with the blood of the "Lord's goat". Satan has NOT YET been banished, therefore - I do not believe - that the Day of Atonement prophecy has already begun. 4. THE WRONG CLOTHING IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE Mrs. White wrote that she was shown what took place in Heaven on October 22nd, 1844. This was AFTER Mr. Edson reported a vision of Christ entering the Most Holy Place. Here is the Bible concerning the Day of Atonement apparel: “And the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at simply any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat. Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. He shall put the Holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash he body in water, and put them on. ........For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. It is a Sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever.” Leviticus 16:2-4, 31-32. NOTE: The attire commanded for the High Priest on the Day of Atonement was plain white linen not the glorious garments with the ephod. Here is Mrs. White's report of her vision" “I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with Him. I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after He arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who arose when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on Him as He left the throne and led them out a little way. Then He raised His right arm, and we heard His lovely voice saying, "Wait here; I am going to My Father to receive the kingdom; keep your garments spotless, and in a little while I will return from the wedding and receive you to Myself." Then a cloudy chariot, with wheels like flaming fire, surrounded by angels, came to where Jesus was. He stepped into the chariot and was borne to the holiest, where the Father sat. There I beheld Jesus, a great High Priest, standing before the Father. On the hem of His garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate.” Early Writings pg. 55 Comment: First - note that she places the Father in the first apartment prior to 1844. Second - according to the Bible the “Golden Garments” with blue ephod, the bells and the pomegranates were to be worn continuously - at all times when ministering in the Sanctuary, except in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. Another vision: “[The Sealing] At the commencement of the Holy Sabbath, (Jan. 5th, 1849,) we engaged in prayer with Bro. Belden's family at Rocky Hill, Con., and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. I was taken off in vision to the Most Holy Place, where I saw Jesus still interceding for Israel. On the bottom of his garment was a bell and a pomegranate, a bell and a pomegranate. Then I saw that Jesus would not leave the Most Holy Place until every case was decided either for salvation or destruction, and that the wrath of God could not come until Jesus had finished his work in the Most Holy Place, laid off his priestly attire and clothed himself with the garments of vengeance. Then Jesus will step out from between the Father and man, and God will keep silence no longer; but pour out his wrath on those who have rejected his truth.” A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White pg 19 A statement from Patriarchs and Prophets “The most important part of the daily ministration was the service performed in behalf of individuals. ... By his own hand the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary.” Patriarchs and Prophets, p.354 NOTE: Blood was not carried into the Holy Place on a daily basis. There were two occasions when blood was carried into the Holy Place and sprinkled before the veil. First: the blood of the sin offering for a priest. (Leviticus 4:3-12); Second: the blood of the sin offering for the whole Israelite community (Leviticus 4:13-21). [On the Day of Atonement, the blood of the two sin offerings was combined.] Rather than carry blood into the Holy Place on a daily basis, the priest was to eat a portion of the sacrifice. He thus became the “sin bearer” taking the sin into himself, and bearing that sin into the Sanctuary. In so doing he represented Christ. “But no sin offering from which any of the blood is brought into the tabernacle of meeting, to make atonement in the holy place shall be eaten. It shall be burned in the fire” (Leviticus 6:30, Hebrews 13:10-11). 5. THE SHUT DOOR According to Leviticus, probation CLOSED for individual Israelites WHEN the High Priest entered the Most Holy Place, with the blood of the LORD's goat, on the Day of Atonement. They - with the scapegoat, were "cut off" from Israel. For 7 years following October 22nd, 1844 THAT is exactly what Ellen White taught, and what she wrote was confirmed to her by vision. NOTE: "The nations" were NOT JUDGED on Yom Kippur. ONLY Israel and the informed mixed multitude were judged on THAT day. In February of 1845 Mrs. White received another vision confirming the closed door. She speaks of this vision in a letter to Joseph Bates, written in 1848. The vision took place while she was in a meeting with believers who had not accepted the doctrine of the shut door. Because of the vision given to her at that moment, the group - including a woman teacher who had been very opposed - accepted the shut door doctrine. The following is a passage from the letter written by Mrs. White to Joseph Bates. “The view about the Bridegroom’s coming I had about the middle of February, 1845, while in Exeter, Maine, in meeting with Israel Dammon, James, and many others. Many of them did not believe in the shut door. I suffered much at the commencement of the meeting. Unbelief [in the shut door] seemed to be on every hand. There was one sister there that was called very spiritual. She traveled and [had] been a powerful preacher the most of the time for twenty years. She had been truly a mother in Israel. But a division had risen in the band on the shut door. She had great sympathy, and could not believe the door was shut. I had known nothing of their difference.” “At length my soul seemed to be in an agony, and while she was talking I feel from my chair to the floor. It was then I had a view of Jesus rising from His mediatorial throne and going to the holiest, the Bridegroom to receive His kingdom. They all said it was entirely new to them. The Lord worked in mighty power, setting the truth home to their hearts. Sister Durben knew what the power of the Lord was, for she had felt it many times; and a short time after I fell she was struck down, and fell to the floor, crying to God to have mercy on her. When I came out of vision, my ears were saluted with Sister Durben’s singing and shouting with a loud voice. Most of them received the vision, and were settled upon the shut door. Previous to this I had no light on the coming of the Bridegroom, but had expected Him to come to this earth to deliver His people on the tenth day of the seventh month. I did not hear a lecture or a word in any way relating to the Bridegroom’s going to the Holiest.” Manuscript Releases Volume Five pg.97 - “Three Early Letters” Mrs. White later wrote: “With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point.” Selected Messages Book 1, p. 74, (Written in 1874.) There are several other reasons WHY I do NOT BELIEVE that the final Day of Atonement began in Heaven on Oct. 22, 1844. I've listed the main problems I see. Shalom, Rachel Cory Prophecy Viewpoint

The OP has the positive fact All men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalieneable rights, among them life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I am not sure were I writing the article I would call them moral facts. Probably true moral values. Love thy neighbor as thyself I would consider to be another one. Or the golden rule- do unto others. Living in a society in which we attempt to be kind is more pleasant than in a society in which anything goes- embezzlement perhaps murder- if we don't get caught. In the context of the OP, I have lived in California and even though I lived a comfortable middle class existence, I knew someone who knew someone who was killed in a gang shooting as an innocent bystander in a car, someone who just caught a ride with the wrong guy. I had to think long and hard about where I would live because of the violent crime levels in that city. There is a big difference between saying that there are some rare instances, such as preventing someone else from being killed, that taking life may not be wrong, and saying murder is not wrong because nothing is wrong, there is no real right and wrong. Seriously who would want to live in a society where murder was thought of as acceptable as long as you did not get caught? I am guessing only sociopaths gang bangers and psychopaths and their ilk. I have done substitute teaching, and I have seen quite a few kids who seemed to have few values. I tried to help them by talking about the kinds of behavior that were necessary to get and keep a good job, putting desired behavior in a positive framework, or sometimes a negative one, as in "Congratulations, you would just have been fired." They actually seemed to like it. Many young men from certain backgrounds wind up in jail for decades. Ben Carson shares how he could have been one of them. For him, a strong moral compass and a belief in God made the difference, not an empty belief, but a transformative belief. (Read his autobiography for details on how he almost killed someone as a teenager) Pilate said "What is truth" before he allowed them to execute Jesus. Perhaps it made him feel better, that day, but Ellen White says ever after his conscience tortured him, and I believe it. There are values of right and wrong that supersede our ideas of proof and are within the conscience of most, such as cold blooded murder. Pilate ordered the murder of someone he had just declared innocent because it was politically expedient to do so. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the Father but by me, implying that there are higher truths and they are of God. While I do not believe in teaching religion in the public schools, sanitizing them of all moral values is in my opinion without merit.

The point is I am not a part of an "Emerging church movement." I am not a "Fordite" I don't believe that Mrs. White's later writings were inspired by Willie or Prescott rather than God. I believe that Jesus had his own unique nature unlike Adam before the fall and us after the fall, and that he did not have in himself the disposition that we have to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. But because I don't belong to certain subgroups I have even been told by some that I do not exist. That either we are one or another. Yes we have Satan and Christ. However Satan is not very original. what he can do is distort what God gives us, takes fractions of truth and make us believe these fractions of truth are the whole truth. And he hands out these pieces of truth as whole truth as it appeals to different ones of us. Then we use these portions of truth as the whole truth and build speculations and traditions of these portions of truth and they turn into error. On the other hand with Christ and the Holy Spirit we know that we all see through a glass dimly. We know in part and prophecy in part. We don't see our understanding as the final word. we are looking to Christ. Looking to know the Bible better. We are willing to grow. While we may have worries about others we don't have to put down other seekers. We don't have to pick something that could well be a problem and tell other people "You can either follow my understanding or else you belong to those horrible people there and are lost." When Paul was in Corinth he was teaching in synagogue. Once some people came in and opposed him. He left with some very sharp words for everyone in that synagogue and started to teach someplace else. Well after calling them names, a number from that synagogue, including the Rabbi came over and continued to study with Paul. This clearly had an effect on him. Later in Ephesus he was teaching in the synagogue. After a while, like in Corinth, people came in and opposed him. His response was completely different. He now had an attitude that he did not want to cause problems and that if there were people who were not comfortable with him teaching in the synagogue he would teach elsewhere and those who wanted to study with him were welcome to attend. We also find in Ephesus that when there was the riot against Paul and people were saying "Great is Artamus of the Ephesians" that the official was able to point out that Paul never once blasphemed against her. By Ephesus Paul's method was just to share what he understood to be truth and if people joined him wonderful. If not then let every man be convinced in their own heart. Paul did not have to pick some sub group and apply it to EVERYONE else who did not belong to his subgroup and use fear and condemnation as an evangelism tool.

Please give me a single example of a *positive* 'moral fact'. Not 'it is wrong to...', but 'it is right to...'. Moral absolutist arguments tend to be made only with extreme negative examples. The seeming impossibility of finding positive examples demonstrates a fatal logical flaw.

About the idea that Robert puts forth in the opening of this thread.... l agree that God must follow His own legal standard in the plan of salvation. Everything He does must do that. Why? Take a look at what He is accused of by the devil. His character is under attack so everything He does must be just or the devil could rightly point out His legal problems. That I agree with. I do not agree with what Robert posits as the answer. Study, for yourselves, what Ellen White calls the law of inheritance. In the Hebrew of the OT it is known as ga'al. It is the legal framework, put forth by God, that the plan of salvation is based upon. In it the closest relative of someone who has lost his/her inheritance, for any reason, can pay their debt and restore to them what is legally theirs. If you do a very careful word study using a tool such as Strong's Concordance on redeem, Redeemer, redeemed, etc... you will find that it is all based upon this concept. I spent months studying this from both the Bible and SOP and the evidence for this is overwhelming. There are literally hundreds of texts, and hundreds of SOP quotations, in support of this. Nothing need be taken out of context or even come close to being twisted in order to understand this. It's a fascinating study and I would recommend that you do it. Understand why Robert is wrong. Don't take my word for. Study this subject closely for yourself for truth and error start out nearly indistinguable but when you reach their logical ends they are miles apart.