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I agree that the early leaders in the development of the SDA denomination were divided on the issue as it related to Ellen White. However, many of them correctly saw it not as an issue of ordination, but, rather as an issue of the role that females should/could play in spiritual nurture. As I have said, many times, the Biblical issue, regardless of the position that one might take, is that of the role, it is not ordination.

Brotherly love, I have a real problem with statements that you make such as the following: Yes, I could write you privately and express my concerns. However, as others have quoted you and responded, I believe that I need to make a public statement. Such is judgmental. It is not a problem for people to come to this forum and pass judgment on the validity of doctrinal statements and comment as to whether or not those statements are Biblical. By coming here and publicly posting information about himself and his beliefs, Gay has opened himself up to that. However, statements such as I have quoted above pass judgment on his motive. They pass judgment on his standing before God. I do not believe that God has given you that role. You may disagree. In any case, I am concerned about you doing it here in this forum. I could remove all of those comments. Up to now, I have not chosen to do so. In part due to the fact that others have quoted and responded to them. However, I may come to the place where I will feel a need to monitor your post more closely. In the meantime, I ask you to please be more careful in attacking the person, rather than the thought. As this is a public comment, this goes for everyone else also.

From a slightly different perspective, though, I'm not sure 'Mother of the Year' and 'repeatedly beat your child about the head' belong in the same paragraph. Extreme circumstances, sure, but domestic violence is still domestic violence.

I am not familiar with the local laws where her and her son are, yet if he goes on to cause damage of public property and joins in with others to engage in a riot, then I suspect there is a strong chance he will get arrested if identified and get a criminal record for life along with whatever the magistrate determines has to be served as punishment. Personally I think she is right to intervene and do something to stop the lad going down that pathway. He may well end up thanking her one day for it. Anyone that raises a child as a single parent is doing the job of both a mother and a father and its easy to sit back in your armchair and criticise, another to walk the walk yourself.

Some good comments by a Ray Hartwell: "Strange Fire" is accepted at face value as fact, by many conscientious individuals. but there are many questions that beg to be answered, which the authors do not address at all. In this concluding section, we will look at what a historic Adventist should ask and should be able to receive an answer. Part 11. Some of the exact same arguments used today to claim that women should not serve in the gospel ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, were used by critics of Ellen White and the Adventist Church in the day of Ellen White. Why do the authors ignore these criticisms and the answers our early Adventist pioneers gave to answer the charge that God could not use a women as a prophet or a spiritual leader? What do they do with J.N. Andrews (Who Ellen White called our ablest man, and who was our first foreign missionary, and who had committed to entire New Testament to memory) when he answers these critics who had cited 1 Timothy 2:12 that women were not to teach? “This her colleagues consistently refuted, not by pleading that she as a prophet constituted a special category, but by arguing that the verse was wrongly applied to prohibiting women ministers in general (cf. Lt 17a, 1880, in 10 MR 70). J.N. Andrews cited Paul’s female coworkers (Philippians 4:3), Phoebe the deaconess (Romans 16:1), Priscilla’s role in ‘instructing Apollos’ and the leadership roles of other New Testament women to prove that Paul’s ‘general rule with regard to women as public teachers’ did not constitute a rigid or universal prohibition. Andrews argued that Romans 10:10 requires public confession of the faith as integral to salvation, and therefore ‘must apply to women equally with men’ (J.N. Andrews, “May Women Speak in Meeting?” Review and Herald, January 2, 1879) – quoted from The Ellen White Encyclopedia, page 1279, Review and Herald Publishing Association, copyrighted 2013. Other historical examples: 1857: D. Hewitt states that the force of Joel 2 supports women’s public ministry. Review and Herald, Oct. 15, 1857, p. 190. 1858: James White challenges Review and Herald readers. Urges that Joel 2 be viewed inclusively, noting that men and man in Scripture "generally means both male and female." Review and Herald, Jan. 7, 1858, p. 69. 1859: B. F. Robbins decries rules in any church that invoke 1 Cor. 14 and 1 Tim. 2 to silence women. Review and Herald, Dec. 8, 1859, pp. 21, 22. 1860: S. C. Welcome supported women’s equality, claiming the "authority of divine revelation that male and female are one in Christ Jesus." Review and Herald, Oct. 15, 1860, pp. 109, 110. 1861: J. A. Mowatt declared it "a woman’s right" to participate publicly in worship. Review and Herald, July 30, 1861, p. 65. 1861: Editor Uriah Smith supports women’s public ministry. He quoted with approval a long extract from the Portadown News, "Women as Preachers and Lecturers." Review and Herald, July 30, 1861. 1868: M. W. Howard said Bible women (like Priscilla) were viable role models for modem women. Review and Herald, Aug 18, 1868, p. 133. If today you are not in favor of women in the gospel ministry (it's not their role, only males could be priests, etc.), then can you even call yourself a historic Adventist, standing in agreement with the founders and pioneers of the church? If you have "moved away" from the founding pioneers of the church, then are you not indeed, yourself, proclaiming some kind of "New Theology?"

Personally I think you should be complimented on your word smithing talent. The best I have seen for awhile No need to explain this...What I am saying ,in the above quote, is to look deeply into the matter beyond the cultural lenses of antiquity, context and understood biases. It looks cut and dry all these years just like Sunday keeping and hell or heaven right after death. It is perfectly clear. I don't anticipate my antiquated, biased belief on Sunday keeping and homosexuality will change anytime soon

No I don't believe any of your posts have gone over my head. Each of us are free to find our entertainment where we can. I do understand that this is close to your heart and seeing the topic with hopeful eyes

I apologize if I made it seem as if I did not think this mother should have intervened. By all means, yes! I'm glad she did. What bothers me is the frequency with which parents are being praised these days for using violent restraint, public shaming and/or other drastic measures that somehow catch the eye of social media. In my opinion, these are not examples of great parenting, they are examples of extreme measures taken when a bit of day-to-day parental involvement would have prevented the need in the first place.

And here is the rest of the story behind the picture: C-sections done under open skies Sagar Kulkarni, Banepa (Kavre Dist, Nepal), Apr 29, 2015, DHNS: Doctors Ramon Ruiz-Diaz and Vidya Pradhananga were in the operation theatre of a charity hospital here preparing for a Caesarean section procedure on Saturday when the earth shook beneath their feet. His patient, a lady in her mid-twenties, was on the operation table in utter discomfort. Any further delay in helping her deliver the baby would have been fatal. In a split second decision, the anesthetist Ruiz-Diaz and gynecologist Vidya Pradhananga decided to continue with the operation in the hospital courtyard under the open skies. “Nurse, move her to the courtyard. Ward boy get the drip and surgical implements to the courtyard,” ordered Ramon, a Paraguayan national working at the Scheer Memorial Hospital here. As the tremors subsided, the doctor carried out the operation and delivered a healthy baby to the thankful mother. “I think you need to name him ‘Thunder’," the doctor told the mother referring to the thundering sound heard as the earth shook. The hospital hurriedly pitched tents on its lawns and rolled out mattresses for the patients who soon started arriving. An intensive care unit was also set up on the hospital lawns to take care of emergency cases. On Sunday, a day after the earthquake, Ramon performed another C-section -- this time in a tent on the hospital lawns. “We have attended to 200 patients till Monday afternoon. Nine were brought dead, most with head injuries," Dale M Molé, the CEO of the hospital told Deccan Herald. Kavre is one of the worst-hit districts and rescuers were yet to reach some of the remote villages. Saturday’s 7.9 magnitude quake had claimed 248 lives in the district, the most after Kathmandu valley (1380 deaths) and Gorkha (400). Tales of bravery and grit abound in the district. The hospital staff recalled the tale of a mother of two children who pulled her one-year-old son out of her home that was reduced to rubble. “The child was unconscious and soon put on oxygen. We tried to find his mother who had brought him to the hospital but she was nowhere to be seen. She turned up three hours later with her elder daughter who was also stuck in the village some three kilometers away,” Sundar Thapa, an executive at the hospital said. http://www.deccanherald.com/content/474763/c-sections-done-open-skies.html

On the other hand, for a young black man in America, getting *arrested* is the *good* outcome... given the number who get shot.

Iyar 11 If you do not believe, it is because you are not trustworthy (Isaiah 7:9). In these few pungent words, the Prophet explains why people may have difficulty in believing in God: they are not themselves trustworthy. In other words, if I am reliable, and I know that people can trust that I will keep my word as best I can to perform and deliver, then I will have little difficulty in having trust in God and in His ability to perform and deliver. Lack of trust in God is thus a reflection of one's own lack of trustworthiness. Projection, a psychological defense mechanism, consists of attributing to others those attitudes and motives that we ourselves harbor. The Talmud summarizes this concept in the dictum that those who find defects in others must themselves be defective in the same way. Isaiah is simply applying this principle to trust and faith. Some people struggle with faith and therefore consult various philosophic works on the subject. The authoritative works - such as Duties of the Heart by Rabbeinu Bachaye, the Kuzari, and others - certainly deserve study, but while they define very well various aspects of faith, they cannot be expected to have much impact on someone who lacks the basic capacity to trust, because of his or her own lack of trustworthiness. One can fine-tune a radio, but the dial will not do much without an electric current. Today I shall ... ... try to develop my integrity so that I should be fully trustworthy.

The article of Gina and Daniel Guiboche story was good reading. The story was well put together to make the flow of thoughts pleasing to the mind. It's always helpful to have stories that we can identify with as church members. Human interest stories show how others go through the same life's sorrows and joys as we do, no matter of what race or geo-location they are. Actually I found it very interesting to see they are the only native Canadian of 'first nation' status working in the ministry.

The following is a condensation of interview by Coming Out Ministries http://www.knowhislove.com/?page_id=2982 Former active homosexuals developed a group that ministers to homosexuals who are wishing to fit into church community http://comingoutministries.org “We don’t promote conversion or reparative therapy at all. The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality but “holiness" The only "conversion" therapy I know that any of the group promotes is true conversion therapy-turning your life fully over to Christ. “I make it a point in every presentation to say that God doesn’t redeem us by the kind of sex we’re having.” Wayne realizes that there’s a diverse range of viewpoints around homosexuality out there. As someone who has been a part of both the secular gay community and the Christian community, he has a lot to say. “God wants us to have an intimate relationship with Him where we would seek to do His will, as we know His will for us, and it will never disagree with His Word.” He also stresses that the aim of the conference was not to turn people into red-blooded heterosexuals. “That might mean that I live celibate and single for the rest of my life, it might mean that He would direct me to the one woman that I would fall in love with. He’s not asking me to fall in love with the entire female population either!” “What we’re trying to do is be advocates for gays in the church, so they can say that we are all loved by God and that we all struggle with various things, but we should come together and lift each other up through the healing that is possible through Jesus. “You won’t find on any of our webpages information about becoming “straight”— it’s about putting people into a loving relationship with God and coming to see that God does have a plan for their life. That involves some self-denial. Whether that is about homosexuality, anger issues or over-eating, whatever the case may be.” “We don’t even like to identify by the term ex-gay. That’s not the term that we use. Corinthians says that when I put my past behind me and sacrifice it to God, I have a fresh start in Him. He has plans for my life. But ex-gay indicates to somebody that now I’m straight. We say we are redeemed. It’s not that I’m no longer tempted, it’s just that I’m not identifying myself by what my temptation is. I handed my temptations over to Jesus.” “Each one of us was in the gay culture for many years and identified with it.” Michael Carducci told me a bit more about what the Coming Out Ministries actually does, and why they do it. “They experienced what many young gay Christians do: an alienation from the Church, and then a rebellion towards and rejection of God. “We left the Adventist church in our early twenties. We had no resources or hope for redemption. He spoke to each one of us individually and brought us out of gay culture. As we discovered more and more of his profound intimate love, it drew us closer and closer together, and further away from the culture we’d identified with for 20 to 40 years.” “Homosexuality is just one of the central issues that are in our church today. It’s something we’ve come out of, and we’ve since lost two members and gained another, Danielle, who came out of bisexuality. “We are advocating for choice. Many say that homosexuality is something you were born with. Imagine being a Christian and thinking that God made you this way, and that there was no way out. That would be a cruel God. The understanding that we have is that there is an intense love that drew us out of our homosexuality and bisexuality that can satisfy more than any lover.” This will resonate with many LGBT Christians - the feeling of rejection, both by the Church and, in your mind, by God. I asked about whether he wanted to spread any message, about God asking LGBT Christians to move away from the gay community and towards the Church. “We want to give that option to other people. We have all come out from homosexuality, we understand the desires and that people have lovers they are deeply in love with, and they make a decision to stay in their relationships. We understand that, we respect everyone’s right to choose. “Could you imagine if we stood at the door and they had to sign a piece of paper and we dunked them in a pool, and they came out and we said they are not gay?! That would be ridiculous.” So, they don’t want to force conversion on people. But they are spreading a message that acting on same-sex attraction is a sin. There are plenty of people who would have an issue with that. “We say that if you’re straight, you’re welcome, if you’re gay, you’re welcome, if you’re a paedophile, you’re welcome! We are invitational just as Jesus is educational to us. If any one of us was to go back to gay culture we would respect and not judge that. We don’t judge anyone. “Each one of us is on a journey into healing—some of our members haven’t even experienced attractions to the opposite sex. I still have same-sex attraction. God still loves me. He does not think that I am an abomination, but instead that the actions of homosexuality bring us further away from God.” Sin isn’t a judgemental word for Michael, he feels like it’s often taken out of context. It means an action which would remove you from God, or put a barrier between the two of you. “It means you are removed from that peaceful relationship that he wants for each one of us. When I compare my relationships with Jesus to the ones I had in my 20 years of gay culture, I realize that none of them satisfied me like my relationship with Jesus did. None of them lasted for more than four years.” They maintain their focus isn’t on homosexuality for the reason that it is any worse than any other sin. It is because it’s a sin that they have all experienced. “We’re not saying anything different to the homosexual community than what we are saying to the heterosexual community. “The bible says that everyone is born with a sinful nature that has the propensity to break God’s moral laws. Many are labelled as Alcoholics, Junkies, Homo’s, Criminals, Adulterers. You don’t have people walking around saying ‘I am an adultering Christian’ or ‘I am a thieving Christian’. My identity is not in my struggle, it’s in my victory, and my victory is in Jesus Christ.” “Drunkeness, adultery, thievery, active homo lifestyle is not God’s will. It’s anything outside of what God designed. He created man in his image, and then he created male and female. Men and women are diversely different, but they come together in such a beautiful way that they totally represent the fullest picture of God—when two become one flesh. It creates life, just like God! “Other kinds of sex are destructive, when we look at the sex that other people have like anal and oral sex it’s degrading. God doesn’t want to degrade his creatures. This isn’t limited to homosexuals - Christian heterosexuals do it too.” These five persons wasn’t actually promoting “gay conversion into becoming heterosexual”, but a form of celibacy and abstinence. They're not here to condem. They are not even here to transform others of their own efforts. They are here to tell of the love of God that transforms the goals and values of homosexual people to experience peace, harmony and new ideals.

…7....so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…Ephesians 2 God is Love! Jesus saves!

A practiced sin is one the Spirit of God has convinced you of and you persistently refuse to repent of it.....It must not be confused with a besetting sin or sins of repetition.

I don't know of the better spot to pick up the story, but this gave a better view to me. And I'm watching a program now from GLC that points out that being a Christian isn't for sissies. Being in a religious atmosphere doesn't always bring out the results for which we would hope. Remember Jesus' response to the money changers in the temple. http://tinyurl.com/kgohpdr God is Love! Jesus saves!

What does the text in Proverbs mean?

We are not asked to help celebrate or provide anything for murderer's, thieves ,gossips,there is a difference. From what you have posted it appears the only way to be considered a "good christian" is to accept what is demanded and concur. Perhaps the gay community should also do that in accepting what others believe. Has there been something said to you that leads you to believe that any other sin is alright,just not the homosexual lifestyle? No one is demanding a law that dictates how much time is spent with family or God. That doesn't have anything to do with this. (OH yes, that's where we draw the line! Folks! Us Good Christians) God drew the line ,not good christians. Just as he did on many other issues.This is the only issue that acceptance and agreement is being forced or guess what,you are not christian. How do you come up with "lording it over someone"? Yes they do call christians to a higher standard. That may even involve you and the gay community. ,The Church to be like HIM If we are in relationship with GOD we WILL be like HIM Do we need to celebrate and condone and accept the gay lifestyle and marriage in order to be like Him? That would seem that God sanctions and blesses gay marriage. God is relational and you see that in Paul. He knew those people (churches) he wrote to. He was there for the conversions etc. He asks that we ,The Church to be like HIM If we are in relationship with GOD we WILL be like HIM We wouldn't be able to help ourselves! I don't think anyone here is standing on a street corner yelling with signs. The gay community that speaks so often of christian love demands we vote for their personal choice don't they? Quote MultiQuote

The verse says "when he is old he will not depart from it", it doesn't say anything about those middle years.

You and Robert are using the word "justified" differently. You are using it to mean "justified by faith" but Robert isn't.

I remember being 16! I agree with Greg.

There should be a bright line somewhere in this matter. Gay couples have a right to happiness and fulfillment; but people of faith have an obligation to honor their faith. The market should be able to decide. There is so much stink about Christians refusing service for gay weddings, try getting a Muslim bakery to do it. If a gay couple can't get adequate service from one business, there is likely a business across the street that will gladly accomodate them. As a business owner, I doubt that I would refuse service to a gay couple. But if I was a pastor, I doubt if I could perform a marriage ceremony for them. But that's me; and I don't draw that line for anyone but myself. LGBTIQAA's have the right to be treated like everyone else; but should they be given the same special status as minority ethnic groups or disabled people? On the other hand, there are plenty of sins out there, Christians (and society) tend to put more emphasis on certain sins than on others. Singling out LGBTIQAA is unjust. Would a bakery refuse service to a gossip, or a couple who had been "living in sin" who were gonna get married? Would an SDA institution refuse service to those infidel Sunday-Keepers? Where's the line? Should there even be a line? If so, should that line be in the same place for everyone?

The anesthesiologist (doc in the bright green hat) is a friend...

Seems to me that she had done exactly that. But, her son had exercised his free choice and gone in a different direction. The idea that a child who goes in a direction different from that of the parents is due to the failure of the parents to properly train the child is simply garbage. God created with free choice and children can chose to go differently from the parents. Parents are no always at fault.

Now coming up on 4000 human beings killed. Do you think God is only weeping if there turns out to be an Adventist, or someone who through various twisted logics can be made to look like one? They're *all* his children. He died for all of them. If our heart is like his, we weep for all of them.

27 herbs and spices is now associated in my head... Glad you are here. :)

lol Your Right! powdered with flour,dipped in oil, sprinkled with salt hmmmm.. maybe that wouldn't be so bad! GAY it is!

"Gay" would be better... "GFC" sounds too much like "KFC", and I'd feel like I was conversing with a chicken...

Oh dear, I didn't think of that. I wanted my Testimony to be somehow in my name. GAY would be nice and appropriate. But if that makes you feel uncomfortable (some people think its a political statement, I heard). GFC would work if I am uhhh...paying attention. I am glad that we speak the same language in understanding what it is to be alone with GOD.

I really appreciate the sentiment expressed here. I was having similar thoughts and feelings this morning when I woke up. Just desiring His presence and His intimacy; wondering who I could channel His blessings to today. Blessings to you for coming here. What can we call you for short? "Gayatfootofcross" is too long; and just plain Gay sounds inappropriate. Does GFC work for you?