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The point is that you haven't *made* a claim about which I could take you at your word! Are you claiming that my characterisation of the positions of the Republican candidates is inaccurate? If so, it shouldn't be all that hard to find an example of one of their policies that falsifies that claim. And anyone who has been watching my posts on this forum - been posting here over a decade - knows that if my position on something is falsified with evidence I withdraw the claim and apologise.

“Resolved, That females possessing the necessary qualifications to fill that position, may, with perfect propriety, be set apart by ordination to the work of the Christian ministry” (Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1881).

I think an answer to those who seem to be uncomfortable with this story is that in each generation and in many churches, there are stories like this told and many untold. In each generation, subculture, ethnic group, community, local church there seems to always be some category of person or people that are on the outs, in a minority, odd, out of sync, blessed with differentness, or unavoidably obvious weaknesses, frailties, struggles or whatever. Humanity in general and churches in particular have a very checkered history in how they respond to such people. Most often people turn away, hide them in "closets", chase them away, would rather not talk about them, touch them, talk to them, eat and fellowship with them, work with them, play with them, live with them or worship with them. Occasionally that trend is broken by someone going counter to human nature or the prevailing sentiment of the in group. Jesus was just such a person. He lived that counter movement. He told stories of that counter movement. He made people uncomfortable by by what he said and did along these lines. He invited people to follow him and do as he did. Seek out and save those on the margins. Be open to new and different opportunities to live that mission. Like it or not, LGBTIQQAA is one of our generation's opportunities.

Thanks for answering my question. Would it make any difference if I identify myself?

Thank you! I appreciate your answer, GFC. May God bless you today as well!

On target. Forgiveness does not relieve a person of the consequences of their actions. We should not put temptati0on in the way of a person who is tempted by it. IOW, a Church Treasurer who has stolen congregational money may be forgive, but, that person should never again be a church Treasurer. One who has molested children should not be places in a situation where that person is working with children. Forgiveness does not mean that we do not prosecute.

Should the onus be on us to do the healing? We have connection with the creator of the universe.

Yes...Complete harmony with no bent-to-self. The early church experienced this for a season: The Bible states that all the believers were one in heart and mind.

Pray for Ireland After Gay Marriage Vote News commentary: The leader of the Adventist Church in Ireland reflects on what led to the referendum. POSTED JUNE 7, 2015 By David Neal, president of the Irish Mission of Seventh-day Adventists On May 22, the people of Ireland voted in a referendum to consider the matter of marriage equality. With a 62 percent 'yes' vote, Ireland became the first country in the world to legalize gay marriage through a referendum. Newspaper headlines following the vote claimed "An Historic Watershed for Our Country" (Sunday Business Post), "Ireland Is a Happier Place for Saying Yes" (Sunday Independent), and "Ireland Is a Kinder, Fairer Country After Voting With Its Heart" (The Observer). What lay behind the vote? In the 1937 Irish State Constitution, the nation was described as a “Catholic State for a Catholic people.” For decades afterward, church and state ruled as one with an iron grip. Social conservatism was communicated weekly in the pulpit through the local parish priest. But then came repeated child sexual abuse allegations that were ignored or covered up by the church. The decline was steep, fast, and furious, and a social revolution came with it. Bear in mind that contraception was prohibited from 1935 to 1980, homosexuality was a crime until 1993, and divorce was permitted only after 1996. Still today, abortion is available only in the most limited of circumstances. Having lost its moral authority, the church was most furiously challenged by the current taoiseach, or prime minister, Enda Kenny. In a move to clearly separate the state from the church, he declared himself "a Taoiseach who is Catholic but not a Catholic Taoiseach." Angrily chastising the church in 2011 for its feeble response to child abuse, Kenny said, "This is not Rome. This is the Republic of Ireland 2011, a republic of laws." He blamed the response on "the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism — and the narcissism — that dominate the culture of the Vatican." The moment those words were spoken, the Catholic state for a Catholic people was over. With a neutered church, and without the moral foundation of Scripture, it was not difficult for Irish people to say “yes” to same-sex marriage. Sure enough, Irish young adults voted “yes” on May 22, but so did thousands of older and rural Irish. While unsure about the new social order, they remembered fighting for “equality” in times past. It hurt deeply being discriminated against in London during the 1950s and 1960s just for being Irish. They didn’t want their children and grandchildren to experience the same pain. In that sense, Ireland really did vote with its heart. The “yes” campaign caught the mood of a people longing for a modern and progressive Ireland, free of social oppression. The “no” campaign and its main messages — “A Mother's Love is Irreplaceable” and “Two Men Can't Replace a Mother's Love” — often struggled to get heard. The “no” supporters faced a challenge communicating their belief in “traditional marriage” between male and female. With religious faith grounded in the tradition of the church, the biblical view of marriage was all but silenced by the louder voices of equality and justice for all. All the same, one in every three votes were “no” in the referendum. In response to the vote, the Catholic archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, said, "We have to stop and have a reality check, not move into denial of the realities." Assurances have been given that clergy will not be forced to conduct gay weddings. How can the Irish Mission of Seventh-day Adventists respond? A statement on same-sex marriage was released prior to the referendum. Following the referendum, in these moments of seismic religious and social change both in Irish and Northern Irish society, prayer without ceasing seems more than appropriate: “Father God, You once said through your Son Jesus, ‘You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.’ As we continue to trust you and your revealed Word through Holy Scripture, help us to see in sharper focus the beauty and truth of Your character. Renew in us a respect and love of your law as seen in and through the life and teachings of Christ. Provide us with a fresh understanding of the gospel and the unconditional love you offer. As we hold firm to the great teachings of Scripture, help us at the very same time to see and regard ‘the other,’ only ever through your eyes of mercy and compassion. Give us the wisdom to be quick to listen and slow to speak. As our Catholic friends experience loss in the church, may they turn to your Word and discover the truth about you. May our faith be always strong, our hope always joyful but, above all, our love shine in Your name to all — without exception. Thank you for your mercy and grace. Amen.” This news commentary appeared on the British Union Conference’s website.

Those who want to revert back to the NT days, where every believe is a Minister.. should vote Yes.

The thing that I have never seen talked about, I could have missed it, was denying female leaders, IRS tax benefits of Ordained Ministers, if they would not ordain.. Later, I understand, other than Ordained Ministers, could qualify for the tax benefit. All those in favour of continuing to use the ecclesiastical structure for the Church, initiated in the 3rd Century, as developed by the Church of Rome, should vote NO. Keep on encouraging those to recognize the authority of the Pope by voting no to this issue. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

It has never been overturned. Some anti-WO people claim that the resolution was referred to the General Conference Executive Committee, which then "did not act on it." However, as Tom Wetmore noted, two of the men who comprised the three-man executive committee at that time, a few years later signed the credential the General Conference issued to Ellen G. White, identifying her as an "ordained minister." So they in fact did act on it. After that, dozens of "licenses to preach" were issued to women--listed in Appendix C of Daughters of God. Since it does not appear that Ellen G. White was ordained by the laying on of hands by men, evidently they recognized that God had ordained her.

by the results of their labors, is what i imagine.

God will be glorified supremely, selfishness will not mar the peace and transparent joy. we will know even as we are known. In Jesus we will be reminded of the evil of sin in His scars, not in our scars. it will be enough, after we have had 1000 years to fully comprehend and understand all the issues and all the players in the great conflict in God's universe. We will know each of us, as the redeemed, each person there is unworthy in themselves, and all our worthiness has been given as a gift in Jesus. The goodness of God towards us will swallow all pain and a great love to God will swell for eternity, a fountain that will never fail. We will play, and run, and build together, will will laugh and sing and have great forums to tell of the goodness of God towards us. We will explore together as friends, and have choirs, and instruments, and learning of all kinds, and have access to the mind of God for all unfolding of knowledge. Jesus will be loved and honored and each new honoring will bring greater tides of Joy.

On the assertion that "husband of one wife" is literally "one woman man," I should have verified that before accepting it as true. 1 Timothy 3:2 "the husband [accusative] of one wife [genitive]" 1 Timothy 3:12 "the husbands [nominative] of one wife [genitive]" Titus 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband [nominative] of one wife [genitive]" Not one of the three occurrences has "husband" and "wife" in the same case, indicating that "one wife" is not being used as an adjective for "husband." Thus, since "wife" is in the genitive case, "husband of one wife" is more correct than "one woman man." One can note that often the Bible speaks of so and so's husband [man] or wife [woman], or his wife [woman], or thy wife [woman], or her husband [man]. If we can't find one single instance where "her man" refers to a wife or "his woman" refers to a husband, I think the idea that 1 Tim. 3:2, 12; Titus 1:6 could refer to women who have only one husband is on very shaky ground. ​And if Paul had said that men would be saved in sweating, would you have thought the verse was unclear? As if men who live in Siberia were less likely to be saved than men at the equator? Or would you have concluded instead that all Paul was saying was that the hard labor God sentenced men and women to in the Garden of Eden was meant to be for our salvation, meant to give us the experience in character development we so desperately need? Do you have any problem with the idea that the sentence of hard labor for both men and women was meant for our salvation?

Top Ten Reasons Why Men Should Not Be Ordained 10. A man’s place is in the army. 9. For men who have children, their ministerial duties might distract them from the responsibilities of being a parent. 8. Their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions. It would be “unnatural” for them to do other forms of work. 7. Man was created before woman. It is therefore obvious that man was a prototype. Thus, they represent an experiment, rather than the crowning achievement of creation. 6. Men are too emotional to be priests or pastors. This is easily demonstrated by their conduct at football games and watching basketball tournaments. 5. Some men are handsome; they will distract women worshipers. 4. To be an ordained pastor is to nurture the congregation. But this is not a traditional male role. Rather, throughout history, women have been considered to be not only more skilled than men at nurturing, but also more frequently attracted to it. This makes them the obvious choice for ordination. 3. Testosterone makes men more prone to violence; no really “manly” man wants to settle disputes by any means other than by fighting about it. It also makes them more prone to lust; consider King David. Thus, they would be poor role models, as well as being dangerously unstable in positions of leadership. 2. The New Testament tells us that Jesus was betrayed by a man. His lack of faith and ensuing punishment remind us of the subordinated position that all men should take. 1. Men can still be involved in church activities, even without being ordained. They can sweep sidewalks, repair the church roof, and perhaps even lead the song service on Father’s Day. By confining themselves to such traditional male roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the church. (Originally from the late Dr. David M. Scholer of Fuller Theological Seminary in 1997.) Found on https://ordinationFacts.wordpress.com/reasons/

Who told you about me?

To paraphrase and plagiarize the above, here are the - Top Ten Reasons Why Men SHOULD Be Ordained 10. A man’s place is in the Lord's Army. Men are stronger physically and mentally to meet the rigors of army life. 9. Men are not as good as women in parenting. That's why women are needed at home, barefoot and pregnant, like Bobby Riggs said. Too much crime with too many loose children. 8. Since their physical build indicates that men are more suited to tasks such as chopping down trees and wrestling mountain lions, they are therefore also more suitable to battling the devil who attacks as a "roaring lion." 7. Man was created before woman. It is therefore obvious that man was pre-eminent. - da head, knucklehead though he may be. 6. Women are too emotional to be priests or pastors. They cry when they are happy. They cry when they are sad. They say yes when they mean no, and say no when they mean yes. 5. Some women will be too distracting with their short, tight, skirts, big boobs, heavy mascara, strange hairdo or color, etc. 4. While women are better at nurturing, what the church needs is tough love, a firm hand, nay, a kick in the butt. 3. It takes balls to produce the testosterone that gives a leader the courage to make the unimpassioned, tough, bare-knuckle decisions.. 2. The New Testament tells us that Jesus chose only MEN! Ordained only MEN! The foundation stones of the New Jerusalem were named only after MEN! 1. Women can still be involved in church activities, of course, even without being ordained. They provided vital supporting role in Christ's ministry. They can continue to do that. They can also sweep sidewalks, sew clothes for the Dorcas society, and perhaps even lead the song service on Mother’s Day if they so desire. By confining themselves to such traditional female roles, they can still be vitally important in the life of the church.

Science doesn't do 'proof', it does strong evidence. Science actually *understands* why the climate has changed in the past - based on strong evidence - why it has been relatively warm and stable for the past 12,000 years and why that stability is under threat now. It understands the fluctuations in solar output, and knows that they account for a maximum of 30% of the observed warming. I'm not *calling* anyone ignorant, but assuming you're able to make judgements about the claims of science without understanding the science... simply means your judgement is poorly founded.

Human beings who violate the TRUST of the community (by lying, stealing, kidnapping, sexual assault, murder, sexual sin, etc) are usually REMOVED from the community. The community feels they CANNOT TRUST the sinner, not to repeat the hurtful behavior. Sometimes the sinner is jailed (or worse -executed). More often the sinner is simply shunned. The problem I see, is that of trust. The sinner wants to be forgiven, AND to be restored to fellowship (as an equal) within the community of believers. But he/she is shunned. Which is WHY your Father taught you that REPUTATION is very important. How to resolve the problem? When we all get to the New Jerusalem, in the Father's House, we won't FEAR the sinner, BECAUSE we believe the LORD will have delivered ONLY THOSE who will not repeat the hurtful behaviors. So - the problem only exists NOW - in this present world. Paul said that we are to separate ourselves from immoral people. But that does nothing for the reformed sinner, who simply wants to come back to fellowship. How to trust again ???? First: It will take time. Second: Restoring relationships, where there has been injury, takes more time than initiating a relationship. Third: I think it is good, if the sinner shares with a few very trustworthy others, his vulnerability. The others can help him to avoid those situations where he would be more vulnerable. There are special communities of faith and support, which were created expressly FOR those who cannot yet be trusted in the general community. Fourth: In the case of child sexual predation by an adult, I do not believe that restoration to the community IS possible. The risk is too high. I am in favor of very long sentences for such crimes.

I thought this was an interesting point brought out here.

Character IS power.

Apparently neither Ellen White nor the Church leaders in her day understood that passage as you seem to. She at one point suggested that it would be well for a woman doing ministry to put her children in the care of another (as she herself did) to enable her to focus on her call to ministry. And the early Adventist Church leaders answered and explained this very passage about women being silent in church as not forbidding women from preaching and teaching, more specifically Ellen White herself. This occurred more than once and one time written about it happened just before Ellen White got up to speak from the pulpit in Church. The contender for women being silent had written a little note questioning whether she should speak. One of the leading men of the day got up and refuted that idea to everyone's satisfaction and she spoke. The E. G. White Estate reports that in her lifetime Ellen White preached more than 10,000 sermons! She was not very silent in church and it is hard to deny that she taught men authoritatively. (And shall we go into the fact that she was recognized as an ordained minister of the SDA Church for more than 30 years by the General Conference... That authority is what this topic is actually about...)

Hi joeb, Good question. I'd say the answer is "yes" to both choices. Jesus came to bring us the Kingdom of God AND to destroy the works of the devil. The Kingdom of God involves the power of God (i.e., miracles). There is no sickness or demonic harassment in heaven; therefore, if we claim "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"; then there should be none where we claim God's dominion. Jesus left entire towns free of sickness. The apostles did the same. Why don't (or can't) we? Is it a lack of faith, or is God not willing to work through us as He did through the apostles, or "we don't need miracles, cuz we have the Bible"? Destroying the works of the devil involves radical obedience to both the Word and the biddings of the Holy Spirit. If we hear that still small voice say "do this", our immediate response should be action; not delay and doubt. One might say "I've prayed over people for healing; and most of the time my prayers aren't answered." Nonetheless, you gotta admit that the more people we pray for, the more that DO get healed. Could you imagine the impact a Bible study would have if we believed God for power to back up our words - like healing a disease for a family member who was suffering? IMO, if God actually healed someone through us, that would be worth 1,000 Bible studies. If it happened in Jesus' and the apostles' times, why not now, especially in light of Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His Spirit without measure in the last days?

This makes me sad. All people should be included in God's house; and all people deserve an equal right to life, love and happiness.

​You're going to be waiting a long time if you're going to wait for the Obama administration to be honest. In my opinion you'll be waiting until pigs fly for that to happen.

wrong again, but at least you're consistent...

Sad, really, really sad

Many are just so thankful, that the change of leadership in Iraq, so that it is the ever peaceful country it is today. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3085486/ISIS-claim-taken-control-Iraqi-city-Ramadi-security-forces-flee-following-series-suicide-car-bombings.html

​http://www.defense.gov/News/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=15918 (gotta defend my cuz)

I think of the early Christians after the crucifixion, Do you think for a minute that they all were loving and loveable? They had a common enemy, a common fear and needed each other to the extreme. When we go through the real time of trouble we will have a common enemy, a common distress etc and we will do that those early christians did hang together and our nuances will seem trite compared to the mamoth experiences we are going through. We will need each other in our frailties and love will rule. I have no doubt.

You have used a word that I think holds the key to the reprogramming, the rewriting of our software, rewriting our story. The word is joy. Joy overwrites pain and misery. Jesus said as much. To give joy overflowing, rinsing the pollution of sin completly out ofour lives.

The Bible likens the times ahead of us, maybe the times we are in now, to a woman in labor. The comparison shows us how painful our experience will be -- but we need to also remember that when the time is past, we will hardly remember the bad time. A woman in labor is moaning in pain one moment and full of joy the next, when it is all over. She knows she's had excruciating pain, that it was almost too much to bear, but she forgets it, she can't even recall how bad it was except in words. The feelings are gone. I like to think that's how our memories will be. We will know we have endured many troubles, but we will be joyful that they are behind us, and a new life is ahead.

The other day I was watching a video clip of Julian Lennon at his first art show (he is a photographer). I don't know how many of you have followed the publicity concerning the relations between Julian and his mom and the other Beatle members with Yoko Ono over the years but for a long time there had been dispute. There was dispute between Yoko and the others plus tension regarding the settling of John Lennon's estate after his death. Early on, Ringo came around, then Paul McCartney, but what would happen with John's original family? But in this interview, Julian talks about his great love for his brother Sean and how important it was for him to move on. The two families have reconciled. It was amazing to see Cynthia Lennon embrace Yoko at the opening of the show. Sean gushed at his brother for a reporter, talking about Julian's talent (Julian sings like his dad, Sean like his mom) and his support for him over the years. Julian came to the realization that he did not want to hurt his younger brother, and any antagonism toward Yoko Ono would pass down to Sean. The admiration between the two brothers was evident. But it is amazing to see peace at work. It was a joy to listen to the parties involved, to see how reconciliation brought friendship in the end. I am fascinated with the idea of reconciliation. I like to think that it is Spirit-given, this heart work. I am amazed when I see it at work now, how much more will the principle be at work in heaven.

Ah, but which version of "us" is going to be in heaven? I currently wear glasses and have a beard and am slightly overweight -- but my eyes won't need glasses, and God may or may not let me keep the beard, and the extra "fat" in my body may not get translated into my "perfect" body! And I'll be wearing "white" -- how long will my hair be? What age will I appear to be? If we see Sister White there, is she going to look like the "old woman" who died in 1915, or will she appear to be the Ellen White in her prime? People have tried to imagine how Stephen will relate to seeing Saul/Paul in heaven, after all the last thing Stephen saw was Saul/Paul among those who stoned him... so will Stephen recognize the older Paul?? Would I recognize my aged grandparents if they now looked "young" again? I never saw them young! So maybe we won't even recognize some of the people we see who we actually crossed paths with on Earth! Also, I don't think we will be immediately mingling with the other millions of saved people and looking to find others except our close family members -- there's the journey to heaven of 7 days to even get to the New Jerusalem -- we will be talking in awe with angels, watching and listening to Jesus -- we will be stunned at the sight of the 12-15 foot tall pre-Flood Antideluvians -- we will be looking for Adam & Eve who will be the tallest human beings there -- we will be watching those Antideluvians trying not to trip or stumble over any pygmies or really short people who might be there -- and we will be focused on how our healthy bodies feel for the first time in our lives and how our senses are finally "plugged in" for the first time! We will be totally immersed in sensations that will be so fantastic and so wonderful, that I imagine that most of the pain and Earthly memories will begin to soften -- and anyway, a truly converted person forgives EVERYONE who ever wronged them here on Earth (or you can't go to Heaven) -- so no one will be walking around in Heaven or the New Earth with a chip on their shoulder about someone who slighted them, each person in Heaven will have forgiven all of that and move on to this absolutely stunningly beautiful heavenly existence! We will still have a memory of those pains, but they won't be as consuming as they are while we are here in this world. All of the people we will see in Heaven will in essence be "new people" -- and ALL of them are our true Family!

There are always degrees of association, and I think heaven will be well populated. I like to think that however little or much we share someone's point of view there, we will be able to treat them with courtesy, being aware we are all there only because of what Jesus did for us. But I do not think we will necessarily be 'bosom buddies' with everyone. I am not sure I could find chapter and verse to support this...except perhaps the golden rule.

I suspect that many of us have a phoney idea of what righteousness and perfection and Heavenly harmony consist of. Understandably, because we have never met anyone like that. We will probably have many more efficient methods of communication--perhaps directly mind-to-mind, with complete empathy. But that still does not mean that different ideas and viewpoints and opinions may not be held. Consider the... inspired words of Proverbs 27:17... It is inevitable that when iron strikes iron, some sparks may be produced. Glorified human beings will not be weak. They will be decisive, they will feel strongly about what they believe, because that is what is right for human beings as God made us. Let us not entertain the phoney notion that there can be no strong feelings in Heaven or the New Earth, nor discussions and even debates. We will have many more means than we do now of resolving differences, and in the disputing, perhaps both parties may advance in their understanding.

I've thought those same thoughts. They started out originally as, if that person goes to my church I'm not going there. So I stopped going to church. I knew there were other churches to go to in the area, but I liked that one. So eventually it came around to, well wait a minute, what if they actually will be in heaven and than the earth made new!!! Whoa, what than? I finally just prayer about it and I figured I could be on the other side of heaven, earth, etc., they were not gonna keep me from spending the rest of eternity with Jesus.

I don't think vegetarianism is a test of fellowship. It's just the preference of most Adventists. But even Ellen White ate pork at the early stages of her life; she left it off at some later point on her own motivation, not because of doctrinal requirements. [i think this is correct; can't vouch for its authenticity exactly.] Also, Ellen White herself changed her position on the beginning and ending times of the Sabbath. She at first believed God had inspired her to start and end the holy day of worship from 6 p.m. Friday to 6 p.m. Saturday. It was only later in her life, after some of the church brethren had continued to study the Scriptures on the subject, and then they prevailed upon her to change her advice on this topic, that the change was made to sunset Friday to sunset Saturday as the times for observing the Sabbath. [i heard Elder Baldwin of the White Estate tell this example in person many years ago in Loma Linda.] Other customs of Adventist life may change from time to time, also. When I was a child no one was allowed to sing in the church choir who wore a wedding ring. My mother had a close college chum who was from New Zealand originally; she was an excellent singer but she wore a wedding ring. This was a problem for her. Nowadays, however, many people wear wedding rings, both in the choir and even in the pulpit. There is now no rule against such, that I know of. These things are merely customs; they are not doctrines. Times change. We have an unchanging God. He is not concerned with cultural fads, which come and go and change periodically throughout the world. His unchanging grace toward mankind is the basis for my love and devotion to Him. It doesn't matter to me if there are people who try to change my lifestyle at times; I'm not here to become their progeny, but to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind and body.