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I think Bravus hit the nail on head. The church felt the need to give EGW a bulletproof persona but it has created for us a win lose scenario. On problem and the whole edifice becomes liable to collapse. I struggled with this question of EGW's fallibility early in my ministry until I happened to be reading about Samuel going Jesse's family to anoint the new King. Samuel was a prophet of God but he made a mistake in identifying the new king 1 Samuel 16:6 When they arrived, Samuel took one look at Eliab and thought, “Surely this is the Lord’s anointed!” 7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Don’t judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The Lord doesn’t see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” God simply corrects Samuel and moves on. It occurred to me at that time that I was a victim of my own perception of what it means to be a nabi (one who bubbles up: speaks on behalf of God: a prophet). I was taught to see a prophet as perfect, infallible, and "always-on"in their dealings and pronouncements. I naively thought that everything is "prophetic". Clearly this is not so. Jonah ran away, Elijah ran away too and succumbed to depression and suicidal ideation, John the Baptist sent messengers to Jesus to check if He (Jesus) was the one but yet he is the greatest prophet ever! God is gracious enough to use failing and faltering men and women as his mouthpieces. Some of our pioneers saw problems with our position: J. N. Anderson put the question clearly: “Can we hold something in the back of our head that we are absolutely sure about, and that most of the brethren stand with us on?—can we hold those things back and be true to ourselves? And furthermore, are we safe in doing it? Is it well to let our people in general go on holding to the verbal inspiration of the Testimonies? When we do that, aren’t we preparing for a crisis that will be very serious some day? It seems to me that the best thing for us to do is to cautiously and very carefully educate our people to see just where we really should stand to be consistent Protestants, to be consistent with the Testimonies themselves, and to be consistent with what we know we must do, as intelligent men, as we have decided in these meetings.” http://m.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=MOL&pagenumber=436

I think the 'she was either a prophet or a false prophet' formulation is unhelpful for at least two reasons: 1. Given how heavily Adventism is based on her work, it places people in the position of 'reject (some of) her work and reject your whole faith' - in my opinion an unnecessary dilemma. 2. It's too simplistic: what if her visions were true prophecy but her views on things such as the Shut Door were her own, non-prophetic views? As I said earlier in this thread, prophets are not infallible. What if she, or those around her, occasionally abused 'I was shown' for political purposes, but nonetheless her real prophecies were true? 'Take everything or leave everything' is beguilingly simple, but often too simple for reality.

According to a few, they are probably all men!

12,000 from each tribe.

Probably only male voluntary eunuchs.

​Hi Rachel, I really like your insight in this thread. I have one tiny pushback on your last post. When I read Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-30 in context with the rest of Hebrews, I don't see these as warnings for what happens to you if you still have some sin problems after accepting the Lord. I see them as warnings to the Hebrews about thinking that Jesus didn't do a good enough job when He offered His life and blood on our behalf to reconcile us to God; so they had to keep sacrificing rams and bulls to obtain forgiveness. It's equivalent to Gal.5:2-4: " Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

​…17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.....2 Corinthians 3 Whether it is focusing on my own spiritual maladies or on that of others, it is just that much time lost from viewing the beauty of the Rose of Sharon. As we behold we become changed. As long as I carry around the burden and reminder of my sinful self, Jesus invitation to me is diminished, for myself and for others. The leprosy of sin does not get lighter by carrying around a sign reading, "unclean, unclean", and it denies the fact that God is fulfilling His promise to me as just this morning I asked for the cleansing power of Jesus blood to wash me clean and cast my sins into the depths of the sea. 22"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."....Matthew 21 …9You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, And called from its remotest parts And said to you, 'You are My servant, I have chosen you and not rejected you. 10'Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.' 11"Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish.…Isaiah 41 8He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?....Micah 6 God is Love! Jesus saves!

What Prescott was pointing out was a miswriting in the 1888 GC. Mrs. White wrote that the Babylon was not the Roman Catholic Church. Prescott knew that was not what she meant so he suggested to her to add the word "Only" (or alone or something like that) at the end of the sentence. which she agreed to. Especially after 1923 fundamentalism grabbed our church and we have had a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists. But the Walter Rea crisis helped to move a more away from Fundamentalism. Now the Adventist Theological Society is more fundamentalist, and besides meeting with the Society of Biblical literature, there is another more conservative society they also meet with and participate with. However among that group they are seen as the liberals and not nearly as fundamentalist as the others. And even they are not as Fundamentalists as the Northern Baptists were when Elder Canright joined them. Too much evidence that they were too extreme that even the Fundamentalists had to modify. Daniels was a reformed fundamentalists and being a Bible believer we are living in a culture where it is hard to tell how much Fundamentalism still has a hold of us even as we try to stay away from it.

I was involved in a church that went heavilly after the Prosperity Gospel and at least one couple that I know of lost their house over it. I considered that to be a pretty good example of spiritual abuse, where supposed spiritual teachings are propagated and harm people as a result.

She never wanted to be a test of faith.. She did not like even being called a prophet. She, later in life, corrected so many errors in her early life. She was mature enough to admin she was wrong.

​Kevin, I believe some of our scholars maintain that Daniells was pro-fundamentalism too. A Catholic priest in What Else Would You Like to Know About the Church said that Seventh-day Adventists are the most fundamental of all the fundamentalist sects, holding to a literal interpretation of the Bible. I guess they felt that way since we keep the Sabbath instead of Sunday, because the Bible says to do that. My problem with Daniells and Prescott's statements at the 1919 Bible Conf. is that they were just plain wrong in some of what they said. Daniells said there was going to be legal trouble over LP. How could there ever have been? Prescott said that the 1888 GC taught that the Catholic Church wasn't Babylon. No it doesn't. It simply says that the 2nd angel's message about a fall can't be referring to Rome while other parts of the book make it plain that Babylon includes Rome.

As others have noted, repudiate is a strong word, stronger than doubt or question. One of my best friends has had doubts about this issue, but repudiate would be too strong a word for her, more that she was not sure, and she did not make her views prominent. I think she focused more on the Bible and her relationship with God.. Not sure if this exactly answers your question, and I do believe that the writings of Ellen White are a blessing, but we can only continue our spiritual journey from where we are, not where we are not. I really enjoyed the book Desire of Ages. If you some time decide to read a book she wrote and have not previously, it makes an excellent devotional. From a doctrinal standpoint, it might be helpful to ask a spiritual person mentor you trust to explain to you why they believe she was inspired.

Moishe had reached 60, so he went to see Dr. Myers for a full check-up. When he had finished, Dr. Myers said, "Relax, Moishe, you’re in very good shape. I can’t find anything wrong with you. You’ll probably live till you’re 100. So how old was your father when he died?" Moishe replied, "Did I say he was dead?" Dr. Myers then asked, "How old is your father, is he still active?" "He’s 83 and goes jogging and Israeli dancing every week." Moishe replied. Dr. Myers was very surprised. "How old was your grandfather when he died?" Moishe again answered, "Did I say he was dead, doctor?" Dr. Myers was astonished. "You mean to tell me that you are 60 years old and both your father and grandfather are alive? Is your grandfather active?" Moishe replied, "He goes swimming twice a week, and plays a full round of golf every Sunday, weather permitting. Not only that, he is 107 years old and next month he is getting married again." Dr. Myers said, "If he’s 107 years old, why on earth would your grandfather want to get married?" Moishe looked Doctor Myers in the eye and said, "Did I say he wanted to?"

On target. Forgiveness does not relieve a person of the consequences of their actions. We should not put temptati0on in the way of a person who is tempted by it. IOW, a Church Treasurer who has stolen congregational money may be forgive, but, that person should never again be a church Treasurer. One who has molested children should not be places in a situation where that person is working with children. Forgiveness does not mean that we do not prosecute.

EZEKIEL 37 This chapter describes the resurrection of "the whole house of Israel" 37:11. Ezekiel 37:12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (NKJ) Western evangelicals along with the rabbis of the current nation of Israel, have miss-applied this prophecy, to the current "return" of Jews to the nation now known as Israel, and her "resurrection" as if from "the dead". I don't think it FITS, because 80% of Jews living today in the nation known as Israel, are SECULAR. They don't even believe in God, much less in this prophecy. This prophecy is talking about redeemed Israel - those of faith - who walk by faith, who have (since His death) believed in Jesus as the Christ. So - in this prophecy - is "your own land" and "the land of Israel" and "the land promised" - the WHOLE WORLD ?? It doesn't sound like this is the case. The "nations" have their own lands, which are separate from the "land of Israel". Cont: Ezekiel 37:21 "Then say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 "They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Eze 37:21 NKJ) We see that Israel is gathered and brought to "the land given to Jacob My servant". Again, we see the promise of David as King forever. And here we read the promise that "My sanctuary" and "My tabernacle" will be "in their midst forevermore". THEN Chapter 28 and 29 - we have the Gog/Magog Battle and clean-up. If we pair Ezekiel with Revelation, we can only conclude that all of this takes place AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. THEN Chapters 40 thru 44 - the New City and the New Temple. The CONTEXT is "the land" AFTER the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. We cannot just remove the prophecy of the Temple from the entire prophecy of resurrection, gathering, and return to "the land". THAT IS WHY I believe the sacrifices at this Temple are symbolic - NOT literal animal sacrifices. There are many Messianic and Hebrew Roots teachers who believe that animal sacrifices will literally be offered at the Millennium Temple under Messiah. I do NOT agree with them. I do not believe that a river of water, will literally flow from the MHP of Ezekiel's Temple. I believe the "river" represents the spirit of God. HE is the one who will bring everything back to life. I do not believe that God will literally cause the bones of His redeemed, to come up out of the ground, and then literally put muscle and sinew back on those bones. This is where the idea came from that God must use the actual bones, so people must not be cremated. This is symbolic!! And so are the sacrifices!!

Ezekiel 36:23 "And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. Does ANYONE think this happened between the return from Babylon and the destruction in 70AD?? 24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. He is NOT just talking about gathering them back from Babylon. He is talking about returning ALL of His redeemed Israel to "the land" promised to Abraham. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God. How many times I read this promise, or heard it read WITHOUT considering the CONTEXT. This is AFTER redeemed Israel is "returned to the land". 29 "I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you. 30 "And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 "Not for your sake do I do this," says the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!" 33 `Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will also enable you to dwell in the cities, and the ruins shall be rebuilt. 34 "The desolate land shall be tilled instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass by. 35 "So they will say,`This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.' 36 "Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the LORD, have spoken it, and I will do it." 37 `Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will also let the house of Israel inquire of Me to do this for them: I will increase their men like a flock. 38 "Like a flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."'" (NKJ) So - consider what this prophecy is saying. The LORD recovers ALL of His own sheep - out of ALL the countries where they are scattered. THEN - He judges His sheep, and sorts out the wicked ones for destruction. THEN - He returns His own sheep to the "land promised". THEN - His sheep rebuild and repair, and the land responds to them, and the wild animals are peaceful, and they are absolutely safe, and secure. THEN - He will increase the number of His sheep. "I will increase their men like a flock." Where will this "increase" come from????? Will they not come from "the nations which are LEFT all around you" ?? The people of those nations will KNOW that the LORD has done all of this. Personally - I think this is where Isa. cpt 2 and Micah cpt 4 come in, where people "go up to the House of the God of Jacob", to "learn His ways".

Men and women receive a good education that prepares them for pastoral work by:

The Holy Spirit prepares both men and women for pastoral work:

Excellent editorial from Spectrum Magazine, May 20, 2015 Editorial: The False Discipleship of Scapegoating The notion of fervent discipleship has become, for some, a constant effort to tweet and post about heresy within the church and then make sure that the widest audience possible is aware of the perceived danger. I know Elder Ted Wilson had the best of intentions in 2010 when he told the audience at the General Conference Session, “Hold them accountable.” I am also sure that he did not envision the path this would take. The admonition to “hold them accountable” is causing our denomination to spiral into endless public shaming of perceived variant targets. As a community we have abandoned irenic generosity and have become entrenched in pursuing the illusive goal of community purification. This is not true discipleship. Jesus portrayed Spirit-filled people as a source of living water for others (John 4:13), not as a sort of honor brigade that roots out any questioning or variance protruding from a particular interpretation. As soon as we play the blame game, the devil wins; Satan, after all, means “accuser.” And accusing has become so easy with social media. Read the rest here: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/05/20/editorial-false-discipleship-scapegoating