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To many, the issue of whether women should be ordained may not seem all that important. Until it is understood that what is really at stake is the church's submission to the authority of Christ to call anyone He chooses to any office He wishes. Insubordination against divine authority is no minor matter among those who profess to be God's faithful remnant church. It is also a severe indictment of those who are so poor in their Bible scholarship that they claim the Bible does not allow women to be ordained, even though we have the Biblical example of Phoebe. Some unwisely will suggest that no one should feel too strongly about this, and recoil from any expression of strong, emphatic feeling. Consider what Sister White said about this, when the same was said critically about A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, who brought the message of re-emphasized justification by faith to the General Conference meeting in Minneapolis in 1888 (who also at times spoke strongly), which the church leaders rejected--calling forth strong rebuke by Ellen G. White who said their message was of God and was "the third angel's message in verity." "Ministers, do not dishonor your God and grieve His Holy Spirit, by casting reflections on the ways and manners of the men He would choose. God knows the character. He sees the temperament of the men He has chosen. He knows that none but earnest, firm, determined, strong-feeling men will view this work in its vital importance, and will put such firmness and decision into their testimonies that they will make a break against the barriers of Satan." (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 412-413) Also we need to keep in mind the following statement from Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, p. 280: "Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." So anyone who says we should keep calm, and not rock the boat, and peacefully accept the wrong decision that was made at the General Conference Session in San Antonio, is not on God's side, not moved by the Spirit of God. Make no mistake, rebellion against the authority of the One, True Head of the Church--Jesus Christ--is a sin, and a grievous sin. If it is not repented of, it will END THE CHURCH. But we can still find hope in Sister White's statement in Acts of the Apostles, p. 11: "From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." So the church is not the pastor, the church is not the General Conference, the church is not the majority of delegates in any convention. The church is those who remain faithful to Christ, the One and Only Head of the Church. This is the body that created the General Conference, not vice-versa.

pnattmbtc, I can agree with Waggoner, and with your comments. The long term results of rebellion (of Satan's kingdom) HAD to be shown, not simply predicted by the Father (although He DID predict them). I completely agree - that it all happens in the mind. The consequences are just felt in the body as well. I believe our HEALING from sin will not happen in an instant, at the Second Coming. Just because we don't indulge in gluttony, or pornography, or work on the Sabbath, does NOT mean we have been HEALED from the effects of sin. The sin around us has resulted in our contamination with defensive thinking. We're always worried about what other people around us will think, and how they will respond to us. We're worried about ourselves, and our loved ones. We don't TRUST other people - until they prove themselves, and even then ..... The HEALING will take TIME - a LONG time. A thousand years - for those rescued at the Second Coming. That being said, our "sins" will have been forgiven. This forgiveness will INCLUDE any mistakes (not sins of rebellion) we make AFTER we are delivered at the Second Coming. We will go to the Holy City, the "place prepared" for us. We won't come back to the earth until the 8th millennium. There will be millions of children on the earth at the SC. There will be persons who are mentally disabled. These CANNOT choose Christ, or believe in Him as LORD and God. We have talked before about what happens to these people. Millions of people DIED without ever choosing (one way or the other) because they DIED in ignorance or immaturity. If we say that the mediation of Jesus as priest, ENDS with the SC, then all these people are LOST. They must be left dead "like the beasts" (which also cannot choose). I believe those rescued at the SC, will be trained and consecrated to serve as "priests of God and of Christ" to teach and govern those raised "second". Those raised "second" will be all of those who were not able to choose during the first age. You said that "sin" - period, ALL sin for ALL time is put upon the head of Satan. I believe that. But - Satan is still left alive. The only reason I can see, for this - is BECAUSE the contest for souls is not over. Satan has demanded the right to TEST every human being. Not every human being will have been tested WHEN the Christ returns. Those who knew nothing of God or His Law, could not possibly be TESTED regarding their loyalty to God and His Law. Satan is "loosed" to TEST those who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium. Those who choose Satan's kingdom will die at Gog/Magog, along with their lord - Satan. Jesus is pleading His blood - for EVERY human being who believes in Him - AND - for EVERY human being who will one day believe in Him. I don't think that pleading comes to a sudden, forever, STOP - at the Second Coming. "Probation" will close at the Second Coming (the Day of Atonement) for all those who have made a choice. An execution of judgment, (a cleansing) will take place. But I don't believe that will be the END of the story.

Everyone here has some valid points. I don't "keep" the feast days; but I do "commemorate" or "remeber" them. History shows that important things have happened o nor around those days. It was around Pentecost that God decended on Sinai to meet with Israel. It was around Passover that the Hebrews passed over into the Promised Land. We should also be aware of the longer-term cycles of the Jewish calendat. The "disasters" at the end of the past several Shemitahs (Sabbatical Years) all occured on the eve of Rosh Hashana (Elul 29) - example - 9/11/2001 was Elul 29. The stock market crash of 2008 was Elul 29. What will be in store for us on Elul 29 ( Sunday Sept. 13) this year? Could the next Jewish year be a Jubilee year? If 1967 (the year Israel regained Jerusalem and much of its lost territory) was a Jubilee Year, 2016 will be as well. (We have lost track of which years are Jubilee Years; but we are still able to track Shemitahs.) Whether we "honor" or "keep" the Jewish feasts or not is a matter of conscience. If we want to be "awake", we need to at least track them because of their significance on God's timeline. Spring feasts were fulfilled real-time when Jesus was here. could Fall feasts be fulfilled real-time upon Jesus' second coming?

I find it interesting that a large number of those who oppose women's ordination tend to want to hold on to the theology of those who opposed Jones and Wagner.

lol .... don't be too hard on LHC... you'll get used to what appears to be his out-of-context scriptures .... lots of the time, they don't seem to jive with the topic or comments, but they *do* to LHC...

Wow!! Sounds like you suffered some rejection at one or more of those congregations. Sorry. I'm NOT a member of any of the ones you mentioned. I'm NOT a member of ANY denomination. I just study my Bible. You'd agree that "all flesh" will go up to worship the LORD on the Sabbath of the 7th Day. Right? So - why not at His OTHER "appointed times" ? (New Moon is specifically mentioned.) The LORD visited Abraham on what would later be called the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It appears the survivors will go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Why CAN'T we celebrate those Feasts without animal sacrifices? We go up to Jerusalem, and we have great camp-meeting type gatherings, to worship and praise the LORD, and to fellowship with one another, AND to remember the work of our Savior. I don't say (presently) that I "keep" any Feast. I just say that we commemorate them. The Israelites did NOT keep the Feasts during their 40 years wandering, or during their captivity in Babylon. That didn't mean the Feasts WENT AWAY. It just meant they could not be kept - just then. And they cannot be kept just now - not until Jesus restores the Temple in His kingdom. We try to teach what the Feasts taught. It's better than doing Christmas (pagan origin) or Easter (pagan origin). Paul wrote, "Christ our Passover was slain for us. Therefore let us KEEP THE FEAST." (I Cor 5:8) What Feast??? Passover - would be the logical answer. I was 40 years old when I REALIZED that the "last supper" was a Passover Feast. What does THAT say about my education...... I CERTAINLY don't say that I commemorate any Feast in order to be saved. I do it because - in those Feasts - is the story of our salvation. The same thing could be said for the 7th Day Sabbath. Sacrifices were offered at the Temple, thru the Aaronic priests ON THE 7th DAY SABBATH ALSO.

Hi 8th day. I agree with much of what you say, especially in regards to the concept that we need healing from sin and it is a correct vision of God's character of God which accomplishes this. However, I think you've got this wrong. It's wrong because it's a caricature of what Ellen White's idea was, which, unfortunately, is quite a common one. When Ellen White speaks of "their own dligient effort", the effort is (see the context) in regards to faith. It's all about what happens in the mind, and Ellen White was well aware of this. It wasn't about perfecting oneself, which is the cariacture. Satan's argument from the beginning has been in regards to God's character. It's a false argument, from the standpoint that he knew what he was saying was a lie, but a very effective one. Satan's goal was to win homage to himself, and misrepresenting God's character was the means to that end. How should God counter this? If God were to simply deny Satan's allegations, and point out that it was he, Satan, who was really lying and really selfish, this would be like two little kids, each calling the other names, and saying, "I'm rubber and you're glue; what you say bounces off of me and sticks to you!" No, the only way to resolve the mess was not by mutal name calling, but allowing time for the wheat and the tares to grow together, where the wheat represents God's government and the tares Satan's. Through time, and especially by the revelation of the cross, the universe has been able to see what are the fruits of the respective governments. In these last days, we have received light as never before regarding God's character. The last message to be presented before the world (COL 415) is a message of God's love and character. "Behold your God!" As the beauty of this message blossoms, the world will be split into two camps. One camp will receive the mark of the beast, which is the government of the evil one, into their hearts and lives. The other camp will recieve the seal of God, which is the goverment of God (or "kingdom of God" as the Gospels put it) into their hearts and minds. The perfection (or maturity, or completeness) of those who believe will be a result of embracing the final message, the loud cry of "that other angel" which fills the world with glory. I think this is conflating a couple of ideas. First of all, the sanctuary record is simply a record of reality. So whatever happens in people's lives is somehow being recorded would be the general idea. I'll repeat the statement I posted from Waggoner a little while back, because I think this explains the idea really well: Regarding the scapegoat statement, which is another one of EGW's statements which is widely misunderstood. The idea being communicated is that Satan is to bear the responsibility of his part in the sin of human beings, which is eminently reasonable and fair. This is not simply for believers, but the wicked as well. This is the part which is widely misunderstood, but she has a statement which makes clear that the responsibility is for all sin, not just the sin of believers.

Thanks for the quote. Through "the grace of God and their own diligent effort." Clearly - I believe Mrs White was WRONG. This whole "we must be perfect" teaching engenders FEAR not TRUST. Sounds just like Catholics who FEAR dieing with one mortal sin on their souls. My "robe" will be spotless BECAUSE Jesus has "washed me" - NOT because I washed myself. I DO NOT BELIEVE that sanctification will be complete for any one of us when Jesus returns in glory. We WILL be justified - yes. In THAT sense, our robes will be "white". The other statement that puzzles me is this one: "while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary" . She obviously sees a PROCESS going on, wherein sins are not simply covered. They are erased from the Sanctuary record, and then written against Satan. Could Mrs. White have written, "while the sins of God's people are being placed on Satan's head". Would that be in line with her other words. I realize that SDAs believe the DAY of Atonement began back in 1844. (I disagree completely!!) The sins of the congregation were confessed over the head of the scapegoat on ONE DAY - the DAY of Atonement. That will be THE DAY that Jesus returns. The scapegoat was loaded with those sins AND was banished to the "uninhabited place" on that SAME DAY. You cannot separate the banishment of Satan from the Second Coming. And you cannot separate the banishment of Satan from the Day of Atonement.

Yes, I can accept that, Teresa. Thank you.

As posted on http://ordinationfacts.com Pastor Gerald J. Christo President, Southern Asia Division (1980-1990) A “Yes” vote will demonstrate to the Church that we value unity—that we are willing, in a given area, to recognize the right of Divisions to determine what they think best to accomplish the mission of the Church. It will show that we love those who differ with us despite whatever biases they may have. We have been earnestly praying for the fullest manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the closing hour of this planet’s history. It is imperative that we expect the Holy Spirit to be poured out on both men and women and that we accept those gifts in all branches of ministry Even in developing countries where educated women are not confined to the classroom and nursing services, but are pursuing professional careers, the percentage of single parents are increasing. These, with other women, need a gentle touch and a soft shoulder to cry on—an educated woman shepherd who empathises with them. http://www.adventistelders.com/gerald-j-christo-why-a-yes-vote-matters/

"When God created Eve, He designed that she should possess neither inferiority nor superiority to the man, but that in all things she should be his equal." - 3 T 484. "Woman should fill the position which God originally designed for her, as her husband's equal." - AH 231.

The church does not teach the infallibility of EGW The church does not teach sinlessness. The church has changed views on prophecy, and if we ever cease to review in light of more information we are in trouble.