Leaderboard

I have been thinking more about this subject. In addition to what I have posted previously, I believe that no matter how you die, if you die with the hope and assurance of the resurrection, you will have died well.

There are multiple aspects to 'dying well'. The medical part of me would consider dying well to be dying as comfortably as possible, with whatever assistance would be helpful. The non medical part - hopefully to have made peace with all those close to me, and to leave my affairs in order to make things simpler for those who must pick up the pieces, and to have the change to say good bye to my loved ones. The closest I come to seeing a close one die was my mother, some years ago....she had been a sufferer of rheumatoid arthritis which also affected her lungs and she coughed consistently. She had also some years previously suffered from lymphoma which had appeared to respond to treatment and she felt assured by God it not to worry about it. She also had all her marbles' so there was no blunting of distress. She was admitted to a certain hospital, and a physician called to see her. He realised she was suffering a chronic infection and to treat it she would have had to suffer a painful trip to another hospital, have invasive monitoring, etc. She declined and I was there to support her decision. I think the physician was distressed at her choice - he had only just met her - but he honoured it. We found out that the lymphoma had reappeared but she did not know.Over the next 4 days we watched her slip away, I had hoped to be there at the last and was not. But she had great faith, her family all visited, and I think she died well, in a hospital where the staff were wonderful.

It is frightening what kind of Christians we become when Jesus is not the Center of the Center.

See: http://equalordination.com/george-knight-on-ordination/

I think the most important thing to remember is that we will all be judged whether it is now, at the SC, or at the end of the 1,000 years. Some of us will be judged "righteous" because we are covered with a garment washed clean by the blood of Jesus Christ. None of us will be judged righteous by anything we did or didn't do. I hope to be in the first group; but only by the grace of God.

Yes Gerry I agree that is the final answer. We have this (that) hope ...............

In both Daniel 7 and Rev 14 that judgment has to take place before the 2nd coming. In fact that judgment incomplete is the whole thing that allows persecution of the saints according to Daniel 7

To many, the issue of whether women should be ordained may not seem all that important. Until it is understood that what is really at stake is the church's submission to the authority of Christ to call anyone He chooses to any office He wishes. Insubordination against divine authority is no minor matter among those who profess to be God's faithful remnant church. It is also a severe indictment of those who are so poor in their Bible scholarship that they claim the Bible does not allow women to be ordained, even though we have the Biblical example of Phoebe. Some unwisely will suggest that no one should feel too strongly about this, and recoil from any expression of strong, emphatic feeling. Consider what Sister White said about this, when the same was said critically about A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner, who brought the message of re-emphasized justification by faith to the General Conference meeting in Minneapolis in 1888 (who also at times spoke strongly), which the church leaders rejected--calling forth strong rebuke by Ellen G. White who said their message was of God and was "the third angel's message in verity." "Ministers, do not dishonor your God and grieve His Holy Spirit, by casting reflections on the ways and manners of the men He would choose. God knows the character. He sees the temperament of the men He has chosen. He knows that none but earnest, firm, determined, strong-feeling men will view this work in its vital importance, and will put such firmness and decision into their testimonies that they will make a break against the barriers of Satan." (Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 412-413) Also we need to keep in mind the following statement from Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, p. 280: "Indifference and neutrality in a religious crisis is regarded of God as a grievous crime and equal to the very worst type of hostility against God." So anyone who says we should keep calm, and not rock the boat, and peacefully accept the wrong decision that was made at the General Conference Session in San Antonio, is not on God's side, not moved by the Spirit of God. Make no mistake, rebellion against the authority of the One, True Head of the Church--Jesus Christ--is a sin, and a grievous sin. If it is not repented of, it will END THE CHURCH. But we can still find hope in Sister White's statement in Acts of the Apostles, p. 11: "From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth." So the church is not the pastor, the church is not the General Conference, the church is not the majority of delegates in any convention. The church is those who remain faithful to Christ, the One and Only Head of the Church. This is the body that created the General Conference, not vice-versa.

Here's a video someone posted on FB: https://www.facebook.com/AskDrBrown/videos/1188501104508823/ ps:if this shouldn't be posted here, please move.

Dear friends, We have held onto error for so long, but YaHuWaH (Jehovah) has forgiven us. But now light is coming and we need to keep up with it. I will make my point very plain and clear, because the Bible makes it that way. There is no need to beat around the bush for for large explanations. The truth is becoming self evident The Torah (Law) still stands. Babylon tried to change it and take it away, but the only thing in Scripture that says will cease in the 70th week of prophecy is "sacrifice and oblation" (DaniEl 9:27). How can we continue to hold, with a clear conscience, that the Appointed Times of the Torah are ended? In Leviticus 23 they are called 'Holy Convocations', just like the Seventh-day Sabbath. That is their primary purpose. The animal sacrifices are shadows pointing to the Sacrifice of YaHushua (Jesus). Therefore, the purpose of these days are of convening together in remembrance of His Sacrifice and the plan of redemption associated with it. There is no need to guess on this matter. If we continue believing a lie (that the Feast Days are ceremonial and not moral), then we are denying both the Torah (Law) and the Messiah, and unless we repent we will receive the mark of the beast, which will include holiday laws (such as Easter and Christmass) in place of the Holy Days of the Bible. Come out of her My people! Is this important? Yes!Is this salvational? Yes! For more info.: www.seekbibletruth.org

In the morning the system as been slow, and this morning was down for a 5 hours.. this may happen again until I come home Monday.. the server is blocked from most IP numbers to stop those who do harm, the down side is I can only access from a couple of ip numbers, gotta fix that. Please be patient..

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation. Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

We had a wonderfully balanced message at church today that drew a line between loving LGBTQ's while exhorting them to abstain from gay sexual contact. He emphasized that there we all have issues; and that we all need grace to deal with those issues. Nonetheless, the church cannot celebrate sexual sin (gay or straight) any more than it can support idolatry, theft, or murder. The gays in our congregation had no problem with the message. They were saying "Amen" as much as the druggies, boozers, and saints. We can genuinely love people without celebrating their issues. We can, however, celebrate everyone's intimate trust in and love of Jesus,

These GC sessions kind of remind me of Alumni gatherings, but obviously a lot larger gathering! It seems that even though they are for meetings and so forth they are also for getting together and seeing old acquaintances. So maybe like a really big reunion!! LOL

I found an honest Article here that says it much better than me. GBU Gail,Thank you for the Above! ................................................................................................................................................ Stop Comparing Your Lust to My Sexual Orientation Admitting that I’m gay doesn’t mean I’m embracing sin. It means I’m being honest. by Matthias Roberts “Just because you’re attracted to men doesn’t mean that you should accept it.” I’ve heard the words often. “The other day, my best friend’s husband admitted in our small group that he struggles with lust. My pastor said that most men struggle with lust. Since men are naturally inclined to this, does that mean that they should just accept it? It’s ‘natural’ for them, isn’t it?” Usually, this is followed by a slight smile, as if they’ve dealt the final blow and won the conversation. The idea is fairly simple: gay people shouldn’t accept their sexuality just like men shouldn’t accept their propensity to lust. It is an argument against the idea that homosexuality is naturally occurring and thus acceptable — “it’s the way I am.” Men, according to this argument, have a strong drive towards lust. If gay people can accept their sexuality, why shouldn’t lusting men be able to act on their attractions? The connection makes sense on a surface level — both speak about sexuality, but that’s where the similarities end. Besides promoting an animalistic view of the male sex drive, this argument exposes ignorance in the church about human sexuality, and it is causing damage in the process. “The attraction is not the lust.” My sexuality, our sexualities are not lust. There is a fundamental difference here. Lust, in the sexual sense (which is the sense I will be referring to in the course of this piece), requires an attraction. That attraction is oriented toward something, usually men, women, or both. This attraction is where we get our spectrum of sexuality. But, the attraction is not the lust. It is a byproduct of our sexual orientations, not the other way around. In other words, lust necessitates sexual orientation but sexual orientation does not necessitate lust. When I was growing up, I would go to youth groups and summer camps where on certain nights they would separate the men from the women in order to have “real talk time.” We would go out into the woods, build campfires, and spend several hours talking about lust and women. We would learn strategies on how to guard ourselves against lust. These strategies were many things, but none of them were attempts to completely remove attraction to women. I can imagine the silence if someone were to raise his hand and proclaim, “I know! What if we just stopped liking girls?” In these circles, it is assumed that it’s possible to hold one’s own sexuality without lusting — that’s what we were being trained to do as Christian young men. “Admitting my sexual orientation is not acting upon it.” Yet, strangely, this idea doesn’t often carry over to homosexuality (and it’s virtually nonexistent in popular ideas around bisexuality). While many churches are now teaching that homosexual desire is not in itself sinful, the persistence of this lust argument is evidence that the message isn’t actually believed. There is pressure in many of these same churches to not accept one’s sexual orientation if it is anything different from the majority. In my teen years, I believed that if I used the word “gay” to describe myself, I would be giving myself over to Satan. Because of this, I couldn’t utter the word out loud until I was in my twenties and instead chose Christianese identifiers like “same-sex attracted.” As my friend Jonah eloquently points out in a recent piece, within many of our churches we teach that “experiencing same-sex attraction isn’t a sin,” while also telling LGBT people that they must be constantly “fighting it,” “battling it,” or “taking up their crosses.” There’s a disparity between these sentiments. As with heterosexual people, lust can be an outflow of homosexuality. But that lust is not what bisexual, lesbian, and gay people are “embracing” when we come to terms with our sexuality. Neither is promiscuity, or flamboyance, or any other thing stereotypically associated with the so-called “gay lifestyle.” By accepting our sexualities, we are naming something that is true about our experience. Admitting my sexual orientation — to myself and others — is not acting upon it. It is possible to be certain of one’s sexual orientation without engaging in sexual activity (case in point, I’ve never even held hands with someone in a romantic way, and yet I am certain that I am gay). It should be a given in faith communities, even in communities where sexual activity is reserved for male-female marriages, that there is space to admit and accept one’s own sexual orientation. For me, to say that I am gay is to say that I am sexually attracted to men. Anything else would be a lie. “Honesty should be fostered and celebrated.” The argument comparing lust and sexual orientation, and others like it, expose an ignorance around sexuality within the church. This is causing damage because it makes it difficult to have productive conversations around sexuality. If sexual orientation is misunderstood as being sinful, or is compared to something that is sinful, environments are created where it is not safe for LGBT people to bring their full experiences. We cannot turn off our sexual orientations with a switch, we cannot simply confess them and stop experiencing them, but they are something that we can hide from others. Unfortunately, one of those places where hiding is often required is in the church. To combat this, it is important for faith communities to foster understanding around what sexual orientation is (attraction towards certain genders and gender expressions) and what it is not (lust, sin). This understanding builds the ground for open conversations around sexuality, morality, and theology. Too often, I walk into conversations around faith and sexuality where it becomes abundantly clear that some people in the conversation have no idea what they are talking about. Yet, they present themselves as experts. These conversations are nearly impossible to navigate and they rarely ever produce meaningful dialogue. Without understanding, we end up talking past each other and drive each other away. Stop comparing sexual orientation to lust. Lust requires orientation. Orientation does not require lust. Coming to terms with my sexuality does not mean I am embracing sin. It does mean that I am being honest about my experience. Regardless of what we believe about what I should do with that experience (the morality question), that honesty should be fostered and celebrated. May we be people who create these spaces ....................... True words in article above.... please give it a listen and a ponder. Who knows what might Happen... ... For God to actually give you unction of His Sweet Spirit to be able to speak into the LGBTIQQAA hearts? In the future I may turn this into a thread with added input from me. Home > Opinion > Liana Aghajanian Intersections: A church in Glendale stands out for its inclusiveness Columnist Liana Aghajanian praises Glendale City Church's spirit of love to the LGBT community Email Share 227 By Liana Aghajanian July 8, 2015 | 7:12 p.m. Editor's note: This is the second in a two-part series of columns. Part one was posted June 24. Carlos Martinez knew what a difference the Seventh-day Adventist Glendale City Church had made in his life. When he told his Bible study group he was gay, he received overwhelming love and support. When he slowly succumbed to AIDS, he received visitors from church around the clock at a time when no one dared to interact with AIDS patients. When he died, Rudy Torres remembers 900 people attending his funeral. Just before he passed, he told Torres, then a pastor at Glendale City Church, exactly what kind of legacy he wanted to leave behind. Martinez left $7,000 to the church and told Torres to invest it. The church created an endowment fund with the contribution that grew to $2 million, and, with it, created new programs, some of which further helped to create a more compassionate atmosphere. Soon after Martinez’s death, Torres and pastor Mitch Henson, who was called “among the most courageous pioneers of inclusion for LGBT adventists,” by the Adventist magazine, Spectrum, realized that no other pastors in Glendale were conducting funerals for AIDs victims. So, the two pastors took it upon themselves to do the job — regardless of the person’s denomination. Their mission was simple: to accept and to love and leave everything else up to God. Martinez and their newfound outreach set a precedent in many ways for Glendale City Church. “It has absolutely changed that church into an inclusive loving community,” Torres said. The church never advertised itself as a haven for the LGBT community, but they didn’t have to — that atmosphere was already created. For most Seventh-day Adventists, being an adherent is not just a matter of religion, it is a matter of life, the kind of thing that manifests itself in everything from education to career and social circles, where coming out as gay means losing pretty much everything one has ever known and starting all over again. In a denomination with 18 million adherents worldwide, where divorce is taboo, anti-gay summits are held and LGBT members live in a perpetual state of “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell,” according to the LGBT advocacy group, the Human Rights Campaign, the Glendale City Church is one of a kind. It’s a place where, unlike many other Seventh-day Adventist churches, its members have never had to choose between who they really are and what they believe in. After an engaging Saturday service, in a room at the Glendale City Church, I met the men from the LGBT community who have found acceptance within these walls. They shared their stories with me, which were at once moving, funny and insightful. Jesse Martin has been here for 31 years and said the church felt like “home.” “I just came to a church where I could be me, not flaunting my gayness but just because I wanted to be loved and because I wanted to love everybody else,” he said. The general acceptance found here is a point everyone made. To some in the Seventh-day Adventist faith, the church was known as the “Pink Church,” because of its ability to attract LGBT members. But to the people who actually worship at the Glendale City Church, it’s just the kind of compassionate atmosphere they’ve always known here. “There are churches that are gay churches, but this is not a gay church,” said Tom Chatt, who married into the church. “It’s just a welcoming church, where people are welcome, whatever their thing is.” In fact, after digging into the history of the over-100-year-old congregation, Dave Ferguson found that, going back all the way to the 1940s, the Glendale City Church had become a more diverse, inclusive place, welcoming people who felt isolated from situations, whether it was divorce or interracial marriage. Ferguson himself was raised as an Adventist. He got married and had a son and tried desperately to change his orientation, knowing that if he didn’t, he would lose everything he had ever known. After he had come to a point where he knew he was ready to start letting people know who he really was, he transferred to Glendale City Church and eventually got involved with the endowment that Martinez helped created so many years before. “It’s kind of been full circle with the endowment, that a gay man helped to start it and a gay man helped it to go forward,” Ferguson said. At the time that Ferguson joined, the Glendale City Church, at least in California, was discreetly known as a place where Adventist LGBT people would be welcomed, and eventually it had enough LGBT members to fill up several pews, which became known as the “Pink Pews.” Though attendance and membership has dwindled overall, the church occasionally sees new LGBT members amongst the mix. “Some people have become members here because they were kicked out of their own church,” current senior pastor Todd Leonard said. “They’ll be asked to step down from doing a Bible study or playing the organ or singing in the choir, if they don’t renounce to the leadership their orientation, the church may take action or remove them, so we’ve kind of been a refuge.” And then, sometimes, this refuge gets people like Daniel Chaney through its doors who aren’t exactly sure what they believe, but know they will be welcomed here regardless. Chaney, whose father was a preacher, grew up in small towns in rural Montana, struggling with his sexuality. “When I realized I was not like the other boys, I just accepted that I was going to be cast into hell at any moment. I felt so sinful,” he said. “I never in my lifetime felt that I would see a welcoming church — I thought maybe a welcoming city or community program, but a church?” Chaney is a singer who has been hired at many churches of various denominations where the messages have been less than welcoming and “ridiculously homophobic,” to the point where he felt a frustrating emotional struggle and eventually quit. But when Glendale City Church called him needing a tenor, the choice to take the job was easy. “I said, ‘You know what? I will,’ because I knew up here I’m not going to feel like that ever,” he said. “It’s just really refreshing that this church makes a point of their inclusiveness.” The church is now focused on how to take that inclusivity toward its immediate community. Under Leonard’s direction, a youth orchestra was created to provide for kids in the city who don’t have access to music training because of socioeconomic issues. Partnering up with other religious and city organizations, they’ve also created an independent program called the Glendale Communitas Initiative to help people in the community move from crisis to stability. “The desire to be a safe space goes beyond the LGBT community,” Leonard said. Faith is difficult and complicated and often a struggle, but at Glendale City Church, there’s a particular kind of spirit, not just something you feel or read or hear about. It’s a spirit in motion, one that you can actually see making a big, genuine difference to many people. In an increasingly hostile world, it’s a spirit worth keeping alive. --

1 Thess 5:1-4 "When they say - Peace and Safety - then sudden destruction" 2Peter 3 says "it escapes their notice" that certain things happened by the Word of God in the past and that certain things are predicted to happen in the future.

See: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2015/july-web-only/behind-scenes-with-dwight-eisenhower-billy-graham-and-maker.html?utm_source=ctweekly-html&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=16245031&utm_content=367743822&utm_campaign=2013

They say patience is a virtue!! Praying all goes well with the fix. It seems to be OK at the moment.

I think your conclusion misses some key details -- that are "different" between the type and the antitype The Holy Place ministry lasted 1 year - but Christ has been standing as our High Priest for 2000 years - the timeline is different. - obviously. The High Priests work in the MHP included the slaying of the sin offering - Christ is not dying on the cross in the MHP of heaven. The compression of all sin offerings are fulfilled in the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. That includes the sacrifice made in Lev 16 - so also the ministry for Atonement - declared all through the year - and focused in Lev 16 - points to Christ's work in the MHP which includes both the judgment and the mediation of all earthly "types" for the priest. What is more Christ is both High Priest Heb 8:1-6 and also judge john 5:22. thus the Bible affirms the message God gave Ellen White on this doctrine. I don't think your suggestions survive a close Bible review of some of the details listed so far. The SDA church formed in the 1860's As you point out the Millerites that went through the 1844 experience did come out of that with some incorrect conclusions - as their best guess. Christ ascended to begin the first part of the work as High Priest - the daily service which is not in the MHP. Some have been there and have seen others have not been there to see. Heb 8 says that there is a copy of the heavenly - and you seem to be saying that the curtain in heaven in Heb 10 is real but not the one in Heb 9. We differ on how that is to be applied. Clearly God makes a big deal about that difference/distinction between those sections of the Sanctuary - in Heb 9 and in 10 and in Daniel 7. The Daniel 7 IJ scene is not about "God taking the time to figure something out" it is about facts being demonstrated to "thousands upon thousands" in that courtroom based on objective facts in books - in other words - recorded proven fact.

Ellen White states that God specifically says that this was the Day of Atonement antitype. And as I point out there are a number of details such as the High Priest offering a sacrifice for his own sins on the Day of Atonement, and also slaying the sin offering on the Day of Atonement - that cannot be held as a sort of wooden rule for the antitype since Christ offers no sacrifice for his own sins, nor is he crucified in 1844. As the priest entered the most holy once a year to cleanse the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus entered the most holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by His mediation, and thus to cleanse the sanctuary. (254) {EW 253.1} I was shown a Sanctuary upon earth containing two apartments. It resembled the one in heaven. I was told that it was the earthly Sanctuary, a figure of the heavenly. The furniture of the first apartment of the earthly Sanctuary was like that in the first apartment of the heavenly. The vail was lifted, and I looked into the Holy of Holies, and saw that the furniture was the same as in the Most Holy place of the heavenly Sanctuary. The priests ministered in both apartments of the earthly. In the first apartment he ministered every day in the year, and entered the Most Holy but once in a year, to cleanse it from the sins which had been conveyed there. I saw that Jesus ministered in both apartments of the heavenly Sanctuary. He entered into the heavenly Sanctuary by the offering of his own blood. The earthly priests were removed by death, therefore they could not continue long; but Jesus, I saw, was a priest forever. Through the sacrifices and offerings brought to the earthly Sanctuary, the children of Israel were to lay hold of the merits of a Saviour to come. And in the wisdom of God the particulars of this work were given us that we might look back to them, and understand the work of Jesus in the heavenly Sanctuary. {1SG 160.1} At the crucifixion, as Jesus died on Calvary, he cried, It is finished, and the vail of the temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom. This was to show that the services of the earthly Sanctuary were forever finished, and that God would no more meet with them in their earthly temple, to accept their sacrifices. The blood of Jesus was then shed, which was to be ministered by himself in the heavenly Sanctuary. As the priests in the earthly Sanctuary entered the Most Holy once a year to cleanse the Sanctuary, Jesus entered the Most Holy of the heavenly, at the end of the 2300 days of Dan, viii, in 1844, to make a final atonement for all who could be benefited by his mediation, and to cleanse the Sanctuary. {1SG 161.1} ============================= So then 1800 years for the 1 year in the type and about 150 the MHP segment

The wicked are all raised at the end of the 1000 years in Rev 20. In Rev 20 the only ones who are "blessed and holy" the only one "over whom the 2nd death has no power' are those who are raised in the first resurrection - not the second. As for Jews that have been rejecting Christ all these centuries - they are raised once at the end of the 1000 years. I don't see anyone explaining the point in NOT raising someone from the dead who would be going to heaven - at the first resurrection.

in your OP you appear to be asking for a reference from the inspired writings of Ellen White - so I gave it. Since that statement on the close of probation and end of Christ's work in the Sanctuary is the topic of the thread - using your quote of it. So then - for the sake of accuracy I provided the quote. If you prefer the discussion to just focus on Rev 15:8-16:2 and 1 John 2:1 and 1Tim 2 we can also do that. But you seemed to be selecting the Ellen White option. There are 1000's upon 1000's in that MHP scene as Dan 7 points out - and not "just two" as we have in the MHP in the tiny type that we have in the "earthly tent". And in Lev 16 the High Priest wears only humble garments and first offers a sacrifice for himself and his sins -- in Lev 16. Christ does not do either of those things as the perfect spotless infinite God - High Priest. I think we were all aware of that - but we did not have to say "WRONG" in response to God's demonstration of that fact. So then -- Ellen White's message given to her by God - is correct. Even the Jews know that this Yom Kippur is the day on which God judges the world. Israel in Romans 2, 9, and 11 is a term specific to the church which is why in Heb 11 the New Covenant is "only" with Israel and Judah. God's statement in Lev 16 and Matt 7 is "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord" will be shown to be true Israel. Ellen White's message given to her by God - is correct. The Holy Place ministry lasted 1 year - but Christ has been standing as our High Priest for 2000 years - the timeline is different. - obviously. The High Priests work in the MHP included the slaying of the sin offering - Christ is not dying on the cross in the MHP of heaven. The compression of all sin offerings are fulfilled in the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. That includes the sacrifice made in Lev 16 - so also the ministry for Atonement - declared all through the year - and focused in Lev 16 - points to Christ's work in the MHP which includes both the judgment and the mediation of all earthly "types" for the priest. What is more Christ is both High Priest Heb 8:1-6 and also judge john 5:22. thus the Bible affirms the message God gave Ellen White on this doctrine. I don't think your suggestions survive a close Bible review of some of the details listed so far. There are two curtains in the Sanctuary Moses built -- and two in the book of Hebrews. Heb 9 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant Entering with Christ through the curtain in Paul's day would have been the first curtain. in Christ, Bob

Today was a HIGH DAY for me,,,, this couple were married LAST NIGHT, after sundown... I was with them for their first supper meal. How cool is that? Guesses on who is who?

The dead of all classes that will go to heaven are taken there at the same time - 1Thess 4. At the 2nd coming. "This is the first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5. Your scenario has a group of dead people - destined for heaven but not taken at the 2nd coming 1Thess 4 event. What would be the point of that?

It is a good question - but to discuss it with substance we must first see exactly what it is that we are talking about. so then ===================================================== Early Writings: I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.{EW 71.1} I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” I saw that none could share the “refreshing” unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.{EW 71.2} As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus’ mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2} ============================================== So then it is true for all mankind that there is no more atoning sacrifice - no blood to cover sins after that point. But for the saints we have the same fellowship with God - the same "no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" as before. Yet there is no more sacrifice for sin. That is a very "different" kind of "Close of Probation" than one might experience by simply being in a fatal car crash. And the one who accepts Christ today - then dies tonight has the offer of forgiveness of sin right up until the last - -- this is not true of those that live through the time of the 7 last plagues.

I see the problem as being conflicting with our mission. If we are seeking to lead people to a salvation relationship with the Lord and this is the purpose of our hospitals, and if we employ people who are living a lifestyle that conflicts with the Biblical one and with Judeo Christian religion which is based on it to the point where the Bible says clearly that people cannot practice this lifestyle and go to Heaven, they cannot function in the primary role of our mission statement. They cannot lead people to a salvational relationship with the Lord because they do not have one themselves. This is different than employing a Baptist or Methodist who sees this issue similarly to us and seeks to follow a Biblical lifestyle as they understand it.

I see no reason why homosexuals should not be hired, if they are qualified at the position that they are hired for!! I can understand if they are required to hired someone, anyone that is not qualified at that position.

I strongly believe that Dr. Knight is correct, but no matter what the people say there will be hard-core opponents!

On our radio stations (Loud Cry Radio, Native Christian Radio, SDAradio.org and Natural Way Radio, we air a series by Coming Out Ministries. They are a coalition of Adventists who have left the alternative sexual lifestyle when they gave their hearts to Christ. One of them is a former SDA minister. They use the phrase Coming Out to signify the coming out and away from sin which they all agree was their former lifestyle. Interestingly each one of them say they were not born into the gay lifestyle but willingly chose it, and likewise chose to walk away from it when reconverted to Jesus.

I guess, in summary, that I can see why what you mean by 'socialism' is unattractive to you. I think perhaps what you miss, and what prompted your original question, is that we mean different things by the term. The thing you think of as 'socialism' is unattractive to me too. I hope you can understand the quite different thing that I mean by 'socialism', and perhaps at least better understand why it is attractive to me, even if it remains unattractive to you.

It's ironic that Hayek's book is called 'The Road to Serfdom'. In the US at the moment, it is absolutely capitalist policies that are leading toward serfdom: a class of people who own little or nothing and must sell their labour to survive at a subsistence level. That's a bit of a side thought. I don't know your politics well enough, joeb - are you an anarchist? or an extreme libertarian? Are you happy for all drugs to be legal, abortion to be legal and so on? Or do you see a role for government in making and enforcing some laws? If so, government is already enforcing some moral code, whether we want it to or not. If government exists at all, it does that. The discussion, therefore, is not about whether or not governments should enforce moral codes, but about which moral codes they will enforce. That discussion is what democracy is *for*. Everyone is likely to find some conflict: I am actually very happy that I paid a lot of tax this year, but many people will dislike that. People who want to use drugs will find conflict with that. That's the nature of any society in which we must live together with others. Any social organisation other than anarchy involves some conflict between individual and communal codes. Anarchy shifts that conflict to direct conflict between individuals. Why do I think government is undoing the work of charities? When government uses trillions of dollars to bail out bankers who gambled with the savings and lives of working people and those bankers in turn use those taxpayer funds to give themselves million dollar bonuses, while minimum wage is kept at a level that means even hard earnest honest work pushes people into poverty at a rate greater than charity can ameliorate, don't you think government policy is actively working in the opposite direction to charity? This is what I mean by 'robber baron capitalism'. We are actually less far apart than it may seem: I actually think the market does a great job of setting prices, wages and conditions, when it is given the freedom to do so. A proper laissez-faire capitalism that gets out of the way of the markets is quite attractive to me. But billion dollar subsidies to fossil fuel industries is not that. Subsidies to corn that lead to the massive use of high fructose corn syrup in food because corn is artificially a more commercial crop than healthier alternatives is not that. This post is a bit disjointed because I've tried to reply to and address a few different issues. Prior to the auto-merge I'd have separated it out into a couple of different posts to enhance clarity... Thanks for an enjoyable and interesting conversation, conducted in good spirit.

I don't question that they made money from the Bush appearance. The organizers said that they made $1.5 million on his appearance. They were pleased with the return. Is it defensible for GW to cause so much death and destruction and then to profit off it? [You may be a fan of GW and I may appear to be attacking him, but I am politically neutral. I don't believe in political parties and I know that God puts the men in office that He deems best to accomplish His will. (I can give you His word on that times 3). From that perspective, I'm neutral on Clinton and Obama as well. Just follow the facts and the truth will take care of itself.]

Everyone here has some valid points. I don't "keep" the feast days; but I do "commemorate" or "remeber" them. History shows that important things have happened o nor around those days. It was around Pentecost that God decended on Sinai to meet with Israel. It was around Passover that the Hebrews passed over into the Promised Land. We should also be aware of the longer-term cycles of the Jewish calendat. The "disasters" at the end of the past several Shemitahs (Sabbatical Years) all occured on the eve of Rosh Hashana (Elul 29) - example - 9/11/2001 was Elul 29. The stock market crash of 2008 was Elul 29. What will be in store for us on Elul 29 ( Sunday Sept. 13) this year? Could the next Jewish year be a Jubilee year? If 1967 (the year Israel regained Jerusalem and much of its lost territory) was a Jubilee Year, 2016 will be as well. (We have lost track of which years are Jubilee Years; but we are still able to track Shemitahs.) Whether we "honor" or "keep" the Jewish feasts or not is a matter of conscience. If we want to be "awake", we need to at least track them because of their significance on God's timeline. Spring feasts were fulfilled real-time when Jesus was here. could Fall feasts be fulfilled real-time upon Jesus' second coming?

Is that significant to this conversation? Bill could have made 10 times what GW took in for his speaking fees. But GW declared the war that killed and maimed the vets and then Bush charged to help them. The CNN report stated that Bill Clinton spoke to Veteran groups for free. Did your research show that Bill Clinton ever charged a veteran's group to speak to them?

I find it interesting that a large number of those who oppose women's ordination tend to want to hold on to the theology of those who opposed Jones and Wagner.

Jesus came to live the will of His Father, not do away with it. John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. Jesus came to promote His Father's on to others. Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Some will say that Jesus didn't teach against same sex relationships. Let us go to the Scriptures for our answer to this statement. What does the will of the Father say about homosexuality? Leviticus 20:13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. The will of the Father says male and female are meant for each other, not men with men or woman with woman. Did Jesus confirm this? Yes He did. Mark 10:6-9 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,and the two shall become one flesh so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.” Did Paul promote the will of the Father? Yes He did! Acts 20:26-27 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. What did Paul teach regarding homosexuality? 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. So we can see from the Scriptures that Jesus did in fact teach that man and woman were created to be together, not man with man or woman with woman. We must also understand that temptation is not sin because we know Jesus was tempted in all areas just like we are and yet He was without sin. Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Temptation is when we desire to do things that are against the will of the Father. What if we give in to a temptation? First of all it's not what if we give in to temptation, but rather, when we give in to temptation. When we fall into sin, as a child of God, it will bring conviction and conviction will lead to confession and confession cleanses the soul. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 2:1-3 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. The problem today is not the fact that we fall into sin, the problem is that we are not calling sin sinful. We have come to the point in life were evil is good and good is evil. Isaiah 5:20-21 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Remember, God calling something sin is not what makes it sinful, it's sinful because it distorts morality, destroys life and ruins relationships so God calls it sin. Even if God didn't judge sin, sin would still carry these consequences. When Jesus comes back He is coming to remove all things that cause people to sin and all those who practice a lifestyle of sin. Matthew 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. God, at this very moment, is preparing a people for this day.

I have given you the benefit of my thinking and understanding of the situation. I am not infallible. I do not have divine foreknowledge. I have been wrong in the past and will be wrong again in the future. We will have to wait and see what actually happens.

The NAD responds to the vote. See: https://blu179.mail.live.com/?tid=cmx6e0-d0l5RGDy9idZ1x5iA2&fid=flinbox NOTE: The question remains as to what Unions will do, to include the NAD. Henry Carroll Hills has said: Actually you are wrong. 1) The World wide church has only said that the decision can not be made by he Divisions. It did not directly address the ordination of women to the gospel ministry. It did not address the ordination of women as Elders. It did not address the ordination of women as deacons/deaconesses. 2) HCH also said that this vote maintains the headship teaching of males. Actually this vote did not address that issue. While it is true that some who reject female ordination also accept the headship teaching, there are others who reject both the headship teaching and female ordination. This vote only addressed one aspect of the issue of female ordination. It did not in any way address the headship teaching.

I was not surprised that No was in the majority, but I was surprised that the vote was as close as it was. The results of the ovte may be surprising. It will be interesting to see if a move is made to change the rule that Unions have the right to make their own decisions. I remember EGW warning about the GC taking too much "kingly power." The vote today appears to have been against developing too much kingly power at the division level.

The New Covenant is a contract not written on stone or paper, but is download into the minds of those who join the Kingdom of YHVH. We might suspect that Feast Days of the future are a part of the laws that will be obeyed without question or resistance. Only by a memory wipe and the programming of YHVH's laws into our minds can the future be safe from human rebellion, war, and death. Those who attempt to observe the Feast Days of the scriptures today may have their hearts in the right place, but their true observance might be difficult to achieve until the Kingdom of YHVH is here.

John, good to see you posting again.

May the Lord be with you, Gerry, on the road that you are walking.

ISIS did not block out the sound from their video of the beheading of 20 Coptic Christians. Those men died shouting "JESUS!" They died well. Here's a link to a program by "Voice of the Martyrs" https://soundcloud.com/the-voice-of-the-martyrs/muslims-finding-christ-im-sick-of-killing In this program you will hear of Sunni Muslims coming to Christ BECAUSE they are "sick of the killing". Sunni Muslims have NEVER before come to Christ. No missionary could reach them. But the terrible persecution by ISIS has CAUSED many to rethink Islam.

As a church, I think we want to be very hesitant to be drawn into a political debate. The first right in the First Amendment is that of religious liberty. The Constitution doesn't even mention anything about a right to be gay, gay marriage, abortion, etc. These rights have been added by judges, not through amendments. Yet I think it an error to get into this debate at the water cooler or in the copy room. It is best for us to be above it all. Today at work we had an undocumented worker offering money to anyone willing to marry him and clarifying no gay sex would be required. This is a topic we are going to come across over and over in the next few years. I doubt it will fall out of the news. Yet our job as Adventists is to spread the gospel hope of Christ's soon return. Getting overly involved in political debate can hinder us in that regard.

See: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/06/18/church%E2%80%99s-dying-edge

Many of these are beautiful testimonies. My mom died of bladder cancer about 1.5 years ago. As her children hovered around her, she often apologized for being such a bother. About 2 weeks before she passed, she quit apologizing and just thanked us for being there; and told us each seperately how much she cherished and loved us. She relived precious memories of our childhood family life - vacations; successes, overcoming defeats, etc. On the last day of her life, after we all had left the room for like 1 minute; she died. It's almost like she chose to die while we were gone, so as not to "upset" us. She had assured each of us of her love for us; and we for her. She died well. For me, I see 3 ways of dying well: 1. A massive combination heart attack and stroke in the middle of deepest sleep 2. Being martyred (but not slowly in pain, I hope) while screaming "Jesus is Lord!" 3. (Preferred) Not dying at all - just being changed in the twinkling of an eye!

Sorry, Gerry, It's something we will all have to face. I hope everything goes well for you and your wife. My wife have been married 50 yrs and are thinking about what must come. Let there be peace for all of us.