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I think shame is more of a concern in suicidal ideation than guilt. Guilt comes with the feeling of having done something one knows is wrong... (there's also false guilt, where someone feels, through cultural or religious mores, that they've done something wrong, when, in fact, they haven't). Shame, OTOH, not only involves a behavior, but includes an all-encompassing feeling of worthlessness and goes into self-denigration. A person feeling shame is focused much on how s/he thinks others are viewing him/her. While guilt evokes a sense of wanting to make reparations, shame makes a person hide under a rock and avoid other people and what they might think. The person feels powerless. Exposed. And diminished in the estimation of others. I can see the value of guilt. But I sure as heck do not see any redeeming qualities in feeling shame, or in shaming someone else.

Here's a "burp cloth" to put over your shoulder

Forgive me Gail for not adding a thumbs up to your post. 6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. 7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice.....Psalms 51 I recognize the importance of not berating anyone. However would God ever be able to reveal Himself as a cure if the light of the Word did not reveal our true condition? The condition of the last church in history is clearly outlined in the book of Revelation. 15'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.17'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,...18So I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. Also buy white garments from me so you will not be shamed by your nakedness, and ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. 19I correct and discipline everyone I love. So be diligent and turn from your indifference..Revelation 3 OTOH, once one has made it clear the message of the Word is unappreciated, we do have specific instructions how to carry on future action. 11“Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them.”.....Mark 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! .

We had a wonderfully balanced message at church today that drew a line between loving LGBTQ's while exhorting them to abstain from gay sexual contact. He emphasized that there we all have issues; and that we all need grace to deal with those issues. Nonetheless, the church cannot celebrate sexual sin (gay or straight) any more than it can support idolatry, theft, or murder. The gays in our congregation had no problem with the message. They were saying "Amen" as much as the druggies, boozers, and saints. We can genuinely love people without celebrating their issues. We can, however, celebrate everyone's intimate trust in and love of Jesus,

There are not a lot of church members that talk about doubt. This is not a common topic discussed around the potluck table or a theme in many sermons. However this is a topic that is often discussed in 12-step support groups. When we are honest with ourselves, most can admit that to some degree they have doubts about their beliefs. A few staunch atheists and a handful of religious radicals can honestly search their innermost beings and find no doubt at all about what they hold to be true. Most people find themselves somewhere in the middle of the belief spectrum. If we say the atheist rates a zero on the belief scale and a suicide bomber rates a 100 on the belief scale we can start to chart our belief and put our doubt into perspective. Many times in 12-step support groups I have heard agnostics exclaim they just cannot be sure. So what does that mean when applied to our belief scale? They can't get past the 50% mark on the scale or they can't get past the 10%. Perhaps it simply means they can't get to the 100% mark - few of us can and it is debatable if that is even healthy. To me, faith means living the way the Bible teaches even if my faith does not registrar at the 100% mark on the belief scale. Personally, if I were to chart my own belief out, I would say my belief is somewhere between the 75% and 80% mark. Given all the historical evidence we have to support the Bible record, the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible and the recent and remarkable ministry of Ellen White, I feel rather certain that God is real and Jesus not only existed but rose from the dead as recorded in the New Testament.

It is frightening what kind of Christians we become when Jesus is not the Center of the Center.

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation. Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

Just one example!

Curiouser and curiouser! I love that expression and use it all the time

I'm not sure that public shame is justified. I'm on the side that its not called for...unless someone is running around naked. Then I'd hope folks around me would cover their eyes and shout: "PUT ON SOME CLOTHES, FOOL!" I think I would leave that up to the individual to make themselves look dumb or or not. But I would not personally comment unless I felt violated. As for privately imposed shame or guilt from others, I think that's fine and should be done when deserved. Like when you have to discipline a child or pull someone aside to tell them: "I know you took that teddy bear from the build-a-bear without buying it. And while I understand you don't have money, stealing is not a good path to go down, kid." I think "shame" like that should be done when necessary and should be done as gently as possible or firmly (within reason). And it should be done for a short time until they reveal themselves to be unconcerned about human consequences or Godly consequences. Then, when you can no longer say any more without them plugging their ears, you should pray for them and leave it up to God. That's the best I think I can imagine shame imposed from others can do.

Like your words of wisdom Naomi My favorite about our life trajectory is If you do what you always did, you're going to get what you always got. Another observation is I almost never regret not telling someone else off (unless they are putting themselves or someone else at serious immediate risk in which case I go for it)

True. But to clarify, I was thinking more in a broad sense of the Church as a whole. Some truly did and some continue to ignore or reject her messages as the prophetic gifts. But I think the majority certainly continued to accept and understand her as such. While many may still misuse, misunderstand, and misapply her messages, most still do so with a view that she had prophetic gifts.

Many of us were raised, and controlled by, guilt. Some much more than others. (Boy could I tell you some stories ) WE have two choices: Get over it and get on with life or let it drag us down to a suicidal, antisocial, in general miserable person. Ultimately it is up to us to do the hard work. How we cope with it is also has to do with understanding compromises, and just what we can learn to live with. There is an old song "Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow lingers on" we can't change yesterday. The Reverent Mr Black, says "You gotta walk that lonesome road, you gotta walk it by yourself. Ain't no body else gonna walk it for you ..." It sounds cold, but the longer we live the farther removed we become from the times of injury and life decisions. We can learn to live in peace and harmony with ourselves, with God and the Universe. In Christ we become a new person. In Christ all of our sins are forgiven and if we do not repeat them or continue to repeat and go back and sincerely try again, we will be one day be free. Yes, there are things in our past that most of us would not want to be a matter of public knowledge. We all have a history, and at times it is not a pretty picture. If it is forgiven and not repeated then why put it out there for scrutiny? My history is my history, your history is yours. I can't walk in your shoes anymore than you can walk in mine. I find that the closer I come to the Cross the less concerned about who knows about what I did as a teenager or adult. God knows, it's done ... forgiven ... zip, zap .. gone. And, my friends that is what I pray for you. You only need God's approval, and He loves you just as you are.

L.O.L. (Disclaimer: this post is not directed at anyone in particular.) Gail, this is really an interesting subject. But this is also a very loaded subject indeed... I'm gonna try to come at this from a different angle. Its just too easy and simplistic to say "guilt is wrong"! I think guilt is part of the reason we come to cross in the first place because we need to feel some sort of conviction for what we've done to nail Jesus to the cross with our sins. Otherwise we're numb to what it actually took for Him to give us a shot to get to Heaven. But I think its one thing to feel honestly bad about your past and say, "I'm so sorry God, I have wronged you. I'm sorry, self. I see how this stuff that I'm doing is not healthy or good. And I'm sorry neighbor, I haven't been nice to you." But its another thing entirely to focus only on yourself and cry about how God isn't on-board with your sinful behavior and say stuff like: "WAAAHHHH, it isn't fair! What's so wrong about wearing jewelry?? Its not like I'm hurting anyone! Besides, God made the rubies so I can put them in my ears too! Why else would He make them the same color as my gorgeous shoes? The chances of these holes in my ears actually harming me or anyone else are 7/10000000000! ... This is unfair, I can't help it that fashion is my life! God must hate me because I'm beautiful. " One form of guilt is based on looking without one's self and seeing what the real issue is. The other form of guilt is ALL ABOUT ONE'S SELF and its less about guilt and more about self pity and a desire to desperately find sympathy from others so they can cry together and form an army against God. Its the same trick Satan pulled in Heaven before he got kicked out. Nothing knew. Same spirit. As for the suicide part, I feel bad for those who contemplate suicide. I honestly do. Its a terrible place to be in emotionally and mentally and I'm sure in many cases its the last place ever that they'd like to be in. But suicide seems to always be a soft spot for many people to feel like no one has a right to talk about a person or a situation. I think suicide should not be a shield that people hide behind and threaten to do just so you can shut up or give them what they want. To some twisted and manipulative folks, suicide is a tool. Sometimes people decide to kill themselves and its not a LICK of your fault. Some people just romantically hate themselves and think that if they feel sorry for themselves enough that the world will magically transform for them. Your point about guilt might be a serious point to explore when it comes to past sins that people can't erase because it already happened. Like if someone once was a porn star and then they changed their life and everyone still gave them problems about it. I feel bad for those people. But if you're still acting a fool and you're committing the same sin everyday of your life with no remorse and only wish to live in a world where you can feel shameless and comfortable to sin, that's a whooooole 'nother problem, BAY-BEE! The problem lies within you. And that's why sometimes people can have everything they want and STILL seek more pity because deep down some people know what they're doing is wrong wrong wrong, and every drop of human encouragement and acceptance in the world ain't gonna take that itty bitty ounce of "I know I'm wrong" away. That's why some people will sin and ask: "Tim, if someone was mean to you for a really long time and kept calling you names for years...wouldn't you choke them out too?" The reason they ask such questions sometimes is to find company to nod their head in approval and say: "Of course I would! Jerks like that deserve to get their neck rung!" The approval subsides the still small voice in their head whispering, "Its not right to choke people no matter how angry you get. Choking people is bad." That way they won't have to battle the guilt day and night in their ever working brains that never sleep. *Places a target on my chest and head. Then sighs.* Alright, I'm ready everyone. I expect to be shot down now because everyone is going to insta-assume I'm some heartless beast who doesn't care about people who commit suicide. And I'll also bet people will accuse me for only talking about sexual sins when I'm talking about all sins. Just aim for the targets so my death can be quick on this thread.

I seem to have read somewhere that SDAs in China could be upwards to 1 million.

I have struggled with trying to fix too much of what is not mine to fix. I am learning to stop myself to decide if what I come across is *my* issue or someone else's who needs to attend to their own fixing. I find keeping my mouth shut, when I previously would have voiced my opinion, does wonders, too. It cuts down on the "opposite reaction" part.

I think the story was quite appropriate. We need to teach children with simple ideas and, many times, the lessons apply just as effectively to the adults in the audience. More conversation with this person might elicit a better understanding of why it pricks at his/her conscience so harshly. Either extreme of attitude can be dangerous: too careless or too condemning. A balance of one's conscience in a healthy way would be uplifting as God lifts our burdens. False guilt can be mentally exhausting.

Jesus is the only help for the sinner - the only hope of salvation. Because of Christ we can come boldly before the throne of Grace to seek help in time of need. Heb 4 Jesus also said that "all judgment has been turned over to the Son" John 5:22 Christ said "think not that I have come to bring peace, I have not come to bring peace but a sword" - Matt 10. "You stand only by your faith, do not be proud but fear - for if He did not spare them - neither will He spare you" Rom 11 The "war" is because sin and righteousness are at war with each other and the heart devoted to sin is at war with God Rom 8:5-8 by contrast to the saints. ========================================================================== The gospel is the "Gospel of peace" Eph 6 it brings peace and the first of 3 gifts of the Spirit "love, joy, peace" Gal 5. "Peace I leave unto you, My peace i give unto you" John 14 "Great peace have those who love your law, and nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165

If the Bible is true and all mankind is descended from Adam and Noah (with the Canaanites probably descended from Noah's grandson Canaan) we would expect that the Canaanites would still possess and practice some fragments of what God had taught Adam and Noah about His appointed times. The Bible first mentions "appointed times" (moedim in Hebrew) in Genesis 1:14, where it has been translated inaccurately as "seasons". We know that somebody was keeping track of the date of Passover at least 430 years before Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt. Scripture tells us, "Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. And at the end of four hundred and thirty years, to the very day, all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt." (Exo 12:40-41) Scripture also tells us a bit about what had happened 430 years earlier. The beginning of Genesis 46 records that Jacob stopped in Beesheba to offer sacrifices on his way to Egypt. Beersheba was the last stop before Egypt. Those sacrifices offered by Jacob as he left Canaan could very well mark "the very day" of God's appointed time that later became Passover. If on the other hand you believe the Bible is a fable and that the Canaanites evolved from cave men and ape-like ancestors, then what you say about God adapting the "feasts of the land" would be true. I'm not saying that the Canaanites didn't celebrate the same sort of feasts that God gave to Israel. I'm just saying that the Canaanites probably got those feasts from their ancestors who got them from God originally.

1 Thess 5:1-4 "When they say - Peace and Safety - then sudden destruction" 2Peter 3 says "it escapes their notice" that certain things happened by the Word of God in the past and that certain things are predicted to happen in the future.

38 million.......for a meeting. It matters not what the per/person cost, is this the best 'bang for the buck'? In this digital, world wide connected population, can not a better, less expensive method be found? How does the cost of this type of meeting compare to what other .orgs might be spending for an equal size meeting and is that common in this day and age? Has the .org become so big that tithes and offerings are being spent in a disproportionate amount on 'overhead'? I wonder if this was the vision that God had when talking about returning a portion of gains to God? I know, a lot of questions but hopefully we can have some facts and discussion about this type of spending. I for one would like to hear others thought and ideas.

I'm of the opinion basing our future on God's promises, on He Who says He never changes, gives one far more peace than fixing our eyes on our baggage. OTOH, if we don't read the Word often enough to remember how best to cooperate with Him we can find life much more difficult. 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them....Psalm 119 God is Love! Jesus saves!

June 29, 2015 Signs of the Times “When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?” (Matthew 16:2-3) This sharp rebuke by the Lord Jesus was well deserved, for His critics were challenging Him to prove His right to be heard by performing a miracle. But they had already been confronted with a tremendous body of evidence, both in their Scriptures and in the very life and teachings of Jesus (as well as in the miracles already wrought by Him) that He was their Messiah. They paid great attention to weather forecasting and other mundane matters, while ignoring or rejecting the evidence that God Himself, in Christ, was in their midst. Today we are more occupied with daily weather even than they were, with all sorts of forecasting devices in operation. There is also a growing army of doomsday forecasters, loudly concerned about a predicted nuclear winter, overpopulation, pollution, alien invasions from outer space, and a host of other foreboding secular “signs of the times.” Yet they ignore the overwhelming evidences, both in science and Scripture, that our great Creator/Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, is still in control and is coming again soon to fulfill His great purposes in creation and redemption. A mere listing of the many real signs of God’s times would take many pages. One such sign, of course, is this very proliferation of science and technology. At “the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased” (Daniel 12:4). Another is the great following achieved by these false teachers, as multitudes “turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Timothy 4:4). “Hypocrites,” Jesus said, are concerned with secular trends, but spiritual discerners can recognize the true signs. HMM

I had a chat with a missionary from another church once and we discussed demon possession. She noted that demonic possession was far more common in other countries and nearly non-existent in western countries in the usual presentation of demon possession. She surmised that part of why we do not see it as much in western countries is that we are too sophisticated (non-religous, non-believing). We discussed how the workings of Satan were tailor made for the culture he was working with. Interesting discussion. I have also noted that you will incur a fair amount of derision is you attempt to draw a connection between demon possession and mental illness especially in a professional setting. I tend to believe that some forms of mental health issues are possession, but will not go beyond that and certainly will not judge any one specifically as being possessed. I think that the surest way to tell if someone is possessed is when Jesus is standing right there and the demons will then immediately let you know that a possession is present. Of course, it was also noted on one occasion with the Apostles: "It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation."… Acts 16:16,17

Considering the story as anonymous, I find many people say that they are led by the Holy Spirit. I am not always convinced that that is the case. With the caveat that the word of God "divides asunder", you have to also consider what the results are of these actions by the person "led by the Holy Spirit". A new member to the faith cannot really come in with the feeling of being led by the Spirit and turn everything upside down. Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit out there that is leading people, even within God's church. Satan also can be as an "angel of light". And he leads people. How do you tell the difference? I would submit there is a spiritual war going on in the church for the hearts and minds of the people. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)

It is good to keep a spiritual emphasis on the children's story, but I am concerned when people want to cut down the time for children in the church service. I feel that children get pitifully little time in the service and we wonder why they find church such a drag. I hated church when little, no matter how much I liked the Bible, hearing Bible stories, and everything that went with it as it was definitely something to endure every week. Children are part of the church family and should be valued. As it is, children hear their short story and then are told to go back to their seat (with the implied message to shut up!). I would also fear for a church that would let newcomers come in and upset the order of church because they weren't happy with the way things are. I say this because I have seen in other religions are marked different manner of dealing with children in their worship service. For many years I attend a conservative synagogue. There, the children are a very important part of the worship service. Torah reading, of course, is done every Sabbath. If a child is being Bar/Bat Mitzvad, they read the Torah portion. During the chanting of the prayer, the children were up/down from the bimah frequently. When the Torah was taken thru the congregation, the children followed. When the challah was eaten, the children were there. When not on the bimah for a part in the service, they played in the aisles. Amazingly, they were quiet and did not intrude into the service. So many times I wished the church would be as kind to children as the synagogue was. And we also see how the religion has survived so well since the return from Babylon before Jesus came. And ponder it when you are wondering why so many children leave the church. Oh! BTW, the story detailed was great. How could you have a problem with it?

If I followed the crowd, I would be a Catholic and use Windows..

We are obviously hesitent to step into unknown territory, following the crowd like lemmings is a lot less threatening. If we think something that is novel we will tell ourselves that people will say it is crazy, or isolate us.

Proactive vs reactive.......

Perhaps change the expectation of the reaction?