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Joel Osteen came into the office I work at to renew his driver license. He had body guards. I reached out to shake his hand and he seemed kind of skittish. I kind of wished I had done that. I gave us several copies of a new book he had out then. As for President Ted Wilson I think he should have armed security. This world is crazy.

It is frightening what kind of Christians we become when Jesus is not the Center of the Center.

If something happens to Wilson there would be resounding inquiry as to why he didn't have protection. He needs to get all the protection that is deemed necessary.

This is but one example of some very serious bits of illogic that pervades the arguments against WO. Many, if not most, of the arguments employed against ordaining women as ministers/pastors are really against the normal and expected roles and functions of being ministers/pastors. It has resulted in the outcome that our female pastors can do almost everything their male counterparts can do, except we cannot ordain them. But EGW presents some of the strangest anomalies in the parade of logical disconnects. The role of prophet, sometimes in the OT called a man of God, is most significant and important spiritual role to which humans are called. Some of the qualities/characteristics and functions of a prophet overlap what we expect of our pastors and church leaders. Some the very same things if done under the designation as exercising prophetic gifts, cannot be done by a woman if she is not recognized as a prophet, or only a pastor. Yet when it comes to ordination of someone as a pastor, suddenly the status of being a pastor takes on an elevated position that is so more significant/important/spiritual/holy that a woman cannot be that, as if being a prophet must be a lesser role.

When I was at the Memorial for Linda Mccartney, Paul's first wife, I was standing beside Steven Segal, he can well take care of himself, and he had 5 bodyguards with him, as too many nuts want to prove they are tougher then him. When I met with Mohammad Ali in San Diego 30 years ago or so, he had 4 armed bodyguards, interesting that they were all Adventist. Why should Elder ted have to defend himself for the loose canons?

Yes, I think that his use of armed body guards is limited and probably mainly to major SDA events, such as the GC session. With tens of thousands of people present, you can expect a few crazy people.

I can say this, Elder Wilson sat behind me on the united airplane headed to Chicago, there were no body guards or extra security. I did see body guards around him at the Convention, and he should have them.

The SDA Church is not a pacifist denomination. A pacifist would not serve in the military in any position. The SDA denomination, in the U.S. encourages its members to only serve in the military in a position that does not involve the use of weapons. If the SDA church was pacifist, it would not allow its clergy to serve in the military as chaplains.

It bothers me when people say "People need to do this for salvation." And the title of this thread, "Feast days are still binding," bothers me as well. Both of those seem to be looking at God's feasts from a legalistic viewpoint-- the viewpoint that says, "What's the least I can do and still squeak into heaven?" That doesn't sit well with me. That viewpoint is not the viewpoint that Jesus taught. Jesus taught (in agreement with what Moses taught) that His followers would want to do the maximum for God, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." If God asked his people to keep certain appointments at specific times, why would someone not want to participate? If Jesus celebrated those appointed times (and He did), why would his followers not want to celebrate those appointed times as well? Have you ever considered that when Jesus was showing us what "the Way" is, and what "the Truth" is and how to live "the Life" Jesus was keeping all of God's Law of Moses including the feasts? If Jesus is the Way, then wouldn't we want to live like Jesus lived? When our focus is on Jesus, wouldn't we want to do as Jesus actually did? Why would someone even consider debating against doing as Jesus did? Why would a person view God's instructions as "binding" rather than freeing? Is it because we don't view the instructions of God in Scripture in the same way that Jesus did?

We had a wonderfully balanced message at church today that drew a line between loving LGBTQ's while exhorting them to abstain from gay sexual contact. He emphasized that there we all have issues; and that we all need grace to deal with those issues. Nonetheless, the church cannot celebrate sexual sin (gay or straight) any more than it can support idolatry, theft, or murder. The gays in our congregation had no problem with the message. They were saying "Amen" as much as the druggies, boozers, and saints. We can genuinely love people without celebrating their issues. We can, however, celebrate everyone's intimate trust in and love of Jesus,

Biblical Archeology: Bringing the Bible to Life Independent sources confirm many of the major and minor characters of the Bible. http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48969466.html?s=mm

There are not a lot of church members that talk about doubt. This is not a common topic discussed around the potluck table or a theme in many sermons. However this is a topic that is often discussed in 12-step support groups. When we are honest with ourselves, most can admit that to some degree they have doubts about their beliefs. A few staunch atheists and a handful of religious radicals can honestly search their innermost beings and find no doubt at all about what they hold to be true. Most people find themselves somewhere in the middle of the belief spectrum. If we say the atheist rates a zero on the belief scale and a suicide bomber rates a 100 on the belief scale we can start to chart our belief and put our doubt into perspective. Many times in 12-step support groups I have heard agnostics exclaim they just cannot be sure. So what does that mean when applied to our belief scale? They can't get past the 50% mark on the scale or they can't get past the 10%. Perhaps it simply means they can't get to the 100% mark - few of us can and it is debatable if that is even healthy. To me, faith means living the way the Bible teaches even if my faith does not registrar at the 100% mark on the belief scale. Personally, if I were to chart my own belief out, I would say my belief is somewhere between the 75% and 80% mark. Given all the historical evidence we have to support the Bible record, the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible and the recent and remarkable ministry of Ellen White, I feel rather certain that God is real and Jesus not only existed but rose from the dead as recorded in the New Testament.

In answer to below, excellent conclusions IMHO. God is Love! Jesus saves!

Well, that's what this is all about. For many SdAs what Paul wrote is not clear, or perhaps is clear but in the opposite way that you think.

Probably there are many reasons, but I suspect that one reason is that because we appear to have it together, they don't want us to think they don't have it together, and the beat goes on ................. The stranger on the street doesn't care if we watched the game {at least a few minutes} on Sabbath afternoon. If we open the door just a crack and they respond we are off on a completely different relationship. Sad but true That's why I love small group Sabbath School lesson studies. When we come together study and share how the lesson applies to our lives walls come down. We don't have to cover every day to benefit as a group. Taking time to pray together 2x2 before or after class is a time for us to seriously bond.

Obama's election just served to flush out the residual racism that's out there. Just like the flag controversy has flushed out all the confederate flag lovers.

As every character is being fully developed we are becoming either more like Christ or more like Satan. Today we live in a world where protection is needed.

Our church use to be very much into the archaeology. People like Lynn Harper Wood, Dr. Theile, Dr. Horn etc. Sadly since the 1980s we have started going more to church history and reformation studies and studying more the style of Chuck Swindall, et.el. and getting away from serious Bible study and archaeology. There are aspects of the investigative judgment that are clearer from archaeology. There are things about the law/grace/Sabbath debate that are clearer from archeology. The issue of women's ordination would have been resolved. Since the mid 1800s we have been in an explosion of Biblical knowledge where we can investigate the Bible as never before. However we are just reading and speculating on the words. And we are reading what others read and speculate on the words. After our pioneers and our great heroes who wrote the SDA Bible Commentary, we have stopped investigating the pages of scripture in light of these discoveries. Is this part of the investigative judgment? Is our return to pre-mid 1800 approaches to Bible study the worshiping in the holy place instead of going with Jesus into the most holy place and allowing Satan to lull us to sleep in our reading the text and speculating? Are the events in San Antonio the result of refusing to enter with Christ into the most holy place like J. N. Andrews, W. W. Prescott, Lynn Harper Wood, Dr. Theile and Dr. Horn and others use to do? Thank you so much for sharing this article. Here is a Youtube you may enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIfCbnhnmYg

Chaim Yankel got a job at an economy motel working at the front desk. A guest checking in, a Mr. John Robinson ordered a 6 a.m. wake-up call. The next morning, Mr. Robinson awoke before 6, but Chaim Yankel didn’t call until 6:30. "Good morning," Chaim Yankel said sheepishly. "This is your wake-up call." Annoyed, Mr. Robinson let Chaim Yankel have it. "You were supposed to call me at 6!" he complained. "What if I had a million-dollar deal to close this morning, and your oversight made me miss out on it?" "Well, sir," said Chaim Yankel, "if you had a million-dollar deal to close, you wouldn't be staying in this motel."

That's not what was voted or affirmed.

Moishe and his teenage son Michael were having another heated conversation. “You just don’t understand me, Dad,” Michael cried, "I need excitement, adventure, money. I'll never find it here at home, so I'm leaving. Don't try to stop me!" With that, Michael headed toward the door. Moishe stood up and followed close behind. "Didn't you hear what I said?” asked Michael. “I don't want you to try to stop me." "Who's trying to stop you?" replied Moishe. "If you wait a minute for me to get my keys, I’m coming with you."

How one views sin ties into this, but I'm not sure which is the chicken and which is the egg. That is, if one views sin as something bad which must be punished, then God's actions will be viewed in this light. On the other hand, if one views sin as something which is destructive in and of itself, that will also color how one views God's actions. The chicken and egg comment is directed towards the idea that it may be the other way around, that how we view God views how we view sin. Or maybe it's both.

Nope. Can you imagine what would have happened during WWII if people had demanded the transparency of governments the way it's demanded nowadays? We'd all be speaking either German or Japanese, and eating sauerkraut and/or chop suey every day...

Good question Naomi. I think transparency is a 2-edged sword. In my old age, I have come to a point where it's not worth the effort to hide my flaws and eccentricities from others in an effort to meet their expectations. On the other hand, I have probably lost many so-called "friends" who can't deal with the "real me". It's nice being able to be the same person in front of everyone as opposed to trying to be a different person in front of different people. Transparency must be tempered with discretion. There are levels of transparency depending on the closeness of the relationship. For example, I am more transparent with my wife than I am with my "next-door" cubicle neighbor at work.

No. At least, not as some would define it.

Yes, Gerry, it is the same lack of faith that causes us to seek medical advice from physicians, insure our homes and automobiles, and seek the services of police. God could provide for everyone of those and more. On my first day in a new country, I walked into the grocery store. As I entered, I noted a shot-gun armed guard at the door. In that country, the local SDA Church discussed hiring a guard to protect my car in the parking lot. (NOTE: I had an old Ford, and I told them it was not necessary as thought that my car was the only one that needed protection.) In another country the local Conference was located in the nation's capitol city. Conference officials thought it necessary to employ guards to protect the office, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I can understand why some might think it necessary to protect President Ted at events such as the GC Session in SA. Yes, I saw the same cars as are in the picture above. But, I do not know if they were armored.

things are getting better...

Not necessarily but close. While we hear of Billy Graham's son Franklyn, he also has a daughter who I've read is at least as good of not a better preacher than her dad. However, many times when she preaches there are a number of men who turn their chairs around because of how they interpret Paul. Those who reject women's ordination tend to have the same understanding of the text that these people who turn their chairs around for Billy Graham's daughter. However if they were to take the exact same stand they would have to reject Mrs. White. However we have worked out a compromise. We read into these texts the word "Ordained" and interpret them to mean that just as long as the woman is not ordained, she is free to speak in church, have authority and to teach and everything else that it appears Paul says they can not do. Thus they have a different guideline from those who turn their back on Billy Graham's daughter. As long as she is not ordained she is good to go. But if she is ordained than she is going against their understanding of Paul.

God is Love! Jesus saves!

As I go skim through GayfortheCross' posts, I am often tempted to bring up the subject of shame. I started a new thread because I wanted to broaden the perspective. Homosexuals are not the only ones to live out the torture of living in an environment of shame. This and the burden of guilt are enough to drive a person to suicide. I suspect that for most of us, we dread what would become of us should our secrets were to become known. I can only imagine the horror of having the world hurl unanimous condemnation. Although we are Christ's now, which of us will ever be free of our past? None... Therefore what is the benefit to anyone to berate someone? Does humiliation cure?

Curiouser and curiouser! I love that expression and use it all the time

True. But to clarify, I was thinking more in a broad sense of the Church as a whole. Some truly did and some continue to ignore or reject her messages as the prophetic gifts. But I think the majority certainly continued to accept and understand her as such. While many may still misuse, misunderstand, and misapply her messages, most still do so with a view that she had prophetic gifts.

Knight said, "17. It is especially amazing that Adventists are having this debate, given the fact that the most influential clergy person in Adventist history was a woman." He neglects to point out that the woman he refers to was never called or ordained by humans but was commissioned by Jesus Christ Himself as His inspired messenger. She never held an appointed office as "clergy." Her influence was as a spokesperson for God, giving His messages, not as a minister or spokesperson of the church, which is what pastors, elders, ministers, etc., are. The church could not tell Ellen White what to say, but the church can and does tell its pastors, elders, and ministers what to say. If a pastor teaches contrary to the church, they often get fired (as in the case of Desmond Ford and others.) But a church cannot fire a genuine prophet of God. Does God call men and women to service in the church? Of course He does. But the difference between Ellen White's "call" and the "call" of elders and pastors, is that the church must appoint them to their positions in order for them to be employed by the church in their offices. Not so God's prophets, and let's remember that EGW was a prophet of God as surely as was Moses and Isaiah. So there are some very significant, relevant distinctions that seem to be ignored in Knights analysis.

Excellent post!

There are multiple aspects to 'dying well'. The medical part of me would consider dying well to be dying as comfortably as possible, with whatever assistance would be helpful. The non medical part - hopefully to have made peace with all those close to me, and to leave my affairs in order to make things simpler for those who must pick up the pieces, and to have the change to say good bye to my loved ones. The closest I come to seeing a close one die was my mother, some years ago....she had been a sufferer of rheumatoid arthritis which also affected her lungs and she coughed consistently. She had also some years previously suffered from lymphoma which had appeared to respond to treatment and she felt assured by God it not to worry about it. She also had all her marbles' so there was no blunting of distress. She was admitted to a certain hospital, and a physician called to see her. He realised she was suffering a chronic infection and to treat it she would have had to suffer a painful trip to another hospital, have invasive monitoring, etc. She declined and I was there to support her decision. I think the physician was distressed at her choice - he had only just met her - but he honoured it. We found out that the lymphoma had reappeared but she did not know.Over the next 4 days we watched her slip away, I had hoped to be there at the last and was not. But she had great faith, her family all visited, and I think she died well, in a hospital where the staff were wonderful.

On both sides not just on one

lol .... don't be too hard on LHC... you'll get used to what appears to be his out-of-context scriptures .... lots of the time, they don't seem to jive with the topic or comments, but they *do* to LHC...

ISIS may have destroyed the original, but the records remain.

I used to think that this 100-year old teaching was identifying the wrong beast as having 666. But as I continued to study, I learned that both beasts are linked to 666. So I have concluded that revising this position would bring confusion rather than more light. Another problem with getting rid of the 666 papal position is like ISIS destroying the antiquities that they are capturing. For example: Babylonian and Roman artifacts have been used to verify things in the Bible. When the originals are destroyed, the evidence that verifies the reliability of the Bible is destroyed. Thus in time ISIS can argue that there is no reliable evidence to prove this or that in the Bible. Without the evidence some truth is thought to be a matter of hear say. The evidence supporting a position that has been held for a hundred years or so becomes less reliable: thus truth can be weakened over time.

This is the sure result of massive governmental debt. You keep on spending money you don't have and you go broke. There's no way around it.

Regardless of what one might think about VFD and 666, one should not use an argument that is generally regarded as factually in error. We should not base our doctrinal understanding on one thing that is clearly problematic.

I hope that the people at the conference will realize that whatever decision they are going to make on this topic will divide the church and many will leave. I vote for a Deferral until we as individuals and as a church are in a better place to make a decision like this. The women in our church are already accusing the church of being sexist and now I've heard that people are refusing to listen to Doug Batchelor/Stephen Bauer, etc etc. because they now think that they are probably wrong on all issues because they "know" they are wrong on this issue and how can they be wrong and right at the same time in their ministry. Dont shoot yourselves in the foot just yet anyway. It's the perfect distraction from the fact that this world is toast. Donezoooo. It's over man...

Just before I read what you posted I thought the very same thing. Live well assures that not matter what you can and will die well. Because it will be OK. My sister-in-law drowned while snorkeling in Hawaii and by good fortune a rescue team was just up the beach as her husband dragged her ashore. They were able to revive her and bring her back. She described what you said about feeling an unimaginable sense of peace as she drowned. It had a profound impact on her.