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Seems like a denial of the promise to wear your seat belt... Seems like a denial of the promise to not look both ways when you cross the street. Seems a denial of the promise to grant us wisdom if we fail to use the brain God gave us. Word for the day - Presumption. In other words foolish faith. All of thes silly questions remind me of the old story of the man praying for God's help and protection during the flooding of his land down by the river. When the river overflowed its banks and the water began rising toward his house he prayed to God to keep him safe from the flood waters. A neighbor came by in his 4X4 truck and offered to drive him to the shelter. The man waved him on and said God would take care of him. When the water rose up to his house and flooded his ground floor he climbed up to his second story and sat in the window waiting for God to protect him. At that point a man with a boat came by and stopped to rescue him and take him to safety. But the praying man waved him on and said God will keep me safe. When the waters kept climbing he went to his attic and cut a hole through his roof and crawled out to sit on his roof. As the water crept up the rooftop a helicopter came by and they lowered a basket for him to climb into to be taken to safety. Once again he refused, prefering to trust that God would keep him safe. In the night the flood finally washed away his house with him and he drowned. When he met his Maker he was a bit upset and asked why God had not kept his promise and kept him safe from the flood. God looked at him and said, "I did, but you refused the help I sent you 3 times."

Would all those folks (including the pastor) who were killed in SC a while back be dead if there had been armed security at the church? There have been several instances of churches being shot up all over the world - including this country. I have been to several large conferences where armed security is on site and visible; I'd imagine there was invisible as well. The shootings at New Life Church (Ted Haggard's old church) in CO Springs was stopped by armed security at the church. Christians have as much of a right to protect themselves and their leaders as any other group. TW having armed security at an event with more that 10,000 people is prudent; not faithless.

A source tells me that each guard was carrying one hardback copy of EGW's Faith and Works and an extra-hard hardback copy of The Impending Conflict to use as weapons.

REALLY? Carry a gun in Church just in case you get to use it? there is only 1 developed country in the world that allows that, and they kill more family members accidentally than intruders. Elder Wilson was a public target... as I said he flew behind me in the flight from San Antonio. I really doubt if this was his decision...

Sorry. I really didn't have your questions in mind. I assumed the mention of denial of God's promise of protection, my own silly rhetorical questions and the story provided specific enough direction to what questions I thought were silly. Upon reflection my concern was less about the questions, but more the direction of answers to those questions that was bending toward the silly or foolish zone of presumption. I understand that the word "silly" was perhaps an offensive word choice to some folk. But presumption is really foolish. The rest of the questions in this thread are another matter. I have unsettled views personally on most of them. Your question about concealed carrying in church is unsettling in another sense. Imagine the scenario of a gunman, especially in a darkened or dimly lit auditorium, opening fire, met with multiple reactions of weapons drawn and firing from different directions from others in the auditorium. Too huge problems result in that scenario with deadly and unalterable consequences that must be resolve in split seconds. How many bad guys with guns are there and which are good guys with guns.? And how well trained are those citizens carrying guns in the church. It has been well documented that many citizens with a concealed carry are not well trained in safely using weapons in such situations. Even well trained professionals make mistakes under the intense pressure of such a scenario and innocent people die. Accuracy drops and judgement is diminished under pressure. That has tragic and deadly consequences. that is quite different than hiring trained professionals to provide security.

Guns fine. War not. oG

Traveling at the speed of light, it takes the electronic signal 4.5 hours to send a photo of Pluto to Earth. Check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/14/nasas-new-horizons-probe-makes-pluto-flyby-nine-years-after-leaving-earth

Thanks for your input. I personally LIKE people who cap and underline and color in their posts. Just a different like. We're all different. I think you and I are closer in our understanding of the controversy over the character of God, - that the only thing that will heal us is a restoration of perfect trust. I used to love Graham Maxwell's lectures on "Can God be Trusted?". My focus on what I call "The 8th Day" is (at its core) also a focus on the character of God - that He is just, and will not leave any person behind to die, who might have come to believe if only he had lived a while longer. I liked your posts too. I sent you a personal message.

There was a story about Mrs. White at a campmeeting. There were some people planning to do some mischief like make her tent fall on her or something like that. The campmeeting hired a policeman to protect her. She felt that due to her job that she could depend on the angels to protect her, but since others were concerned she did allow the policeman to protect her. He was a Catholic. He soon stopped protecting her because he saw an angel over her tent protecting her. He kneeled and did the sign of the cross. This was a very moving experience for him. I am not positive but I believe he became a Seventh-day Adventist because of this. However, Mrs. White was in a special place with a special ministry that required the extra protection. Most of us are not in that position. Even in her day the officials at Campmeeting saw the need to hire an armed bodyguard. She saw it as unnecessary due to her ministry. However she accepted it. Elder Wilson's work is important, but not as important and special as Mrs. White's work was. We live in a day where it's not people wanting to cut tent ropes for the tent to fall down, but want to be a part of these senseless shootings that we have seen so often in recent years. (and this is not including my wondering how many angels were welcomed to San Antonio).

You guessed right. I began the article thinking it was about President Ted. Instead, it was about President Woodrow Wilson. How often, do many of us, obviously I am included, begin reading something with a bias that we got from the title, or something else. It was of interest to me, the length of time it took me to get beyond my bias to deal with historical facts about President Woodrow Wilson and women's voting rights. Now that I have given it away, you can read it in: SPECTRUM, Vol. 43, Issue 2‌, Spring 2015, pages 72 - 80.

I am guessing that the reference to president Wilson is a reference to President of the United States Woodrow Wilson and the "policy for women" deals with the right to vote.

Bravus and Lauralea, I'll try to answer both of your posts here as they are tied together with the thoughts they express. The banks are not the one to blame for the collapse of the housing market here in the US. The Democrats are. Why? We have something called FANNIE MAE that is a government for providing housing financing and it sets a lot of monetary policy with respect to that area. The Democrats were in charge of FANNIE MAE for they were in the majority of the house of Congress that supervises it. What they did was force the banks to relax their policies on downpayments, income requirements, etc.... The result was that many people recieved housing loans that in a sane world would have never been granted. They had never learned to be financially responsible. They had no savings and borrowed far beyond their ability to repay. On top of that FANNIE MAE was pushing ARMs. Adjustable rate mortagages. What was the sure result? A huge housing boom followed by a rise in interest rates with a corresponding rise in mortgage payments. Since many of the new home owners had borrowed well above 80% of the price of their home, and more than maxed out their debt to income ratio as soon as the interest rates rose they were priced out of their homes. That caused the price of houses to drop. As soon as the prices started to drop many people were now upside down in their mortagages so they just walked away from the situation. This caused a further drop in housing prices. It became a vicious cycle and all the normal trading of mortagages now had a large percentage of bad loans in them. This boom and bust was caused solely by government policy, specifically, Democrat policy. It was government intervention in business that caused the entire thing. Now to address the idea that more government intervention will solve the income disparity problem we have. This problem is once again caused by government intervention in business. I'll give you one or two examples. In New York city many immigrants over the years have used a taxicab business to rise above poverty. The Irish did it in the day of the horse and buggy and in the more recent times the Pakistani's and Indians (from India) have done the same. However, government has now made this traditional way of lifting yourself out of poverty impossible to accomplish. To start a taxi business in New York city now requires an investment of a minimum of $1,000,000 per cab. That million goes to the government, for that is the price the socialists in New York city government have set on the medallion they require to be placed on n the hood of every taxi. How have they done this? In the name of safety. When my great-great grandfather emigrated here in the late 1890s he was a poor man. What he did was start a logging company. He started small but kept reinvesting in his business. When the depression hit he had a million dollars worth of logs on the landing and he went broke as the lumber market collapsed to the point that the logs weren't worth what he had tied up in them. He started over again with a road building business and paid off all his debts. Today he couldn't start either of those businesses. Government regulation makes the entry level price so high the little guy is priced out of the business. Once again a road out of poverty is closed by government intervention. This is true in many of the traditional paths out of poverty. So, do you really think more government intervention is going to fix this? Since Obama was elected the income differential has exploded. Why? Because, as a socialist, he believes government is the answer to everything. He's created more business regulation by far than any previous President and he's absolutely stifling business growth and closing paths for people to lift themselves out of poverty. At the same time he blames the Republicans and capitalism for this problem he is aggravating. So does the media. Why? Because the main stream media sees government as the answer to everything too. Now, as to serfdom. Poverty is necessary, but not sufficient, for someone to be considered a serf, or thrall. To be considered a serf one must not only have all ways out of poverty withheld from them but also be under the control of another person. In the old days that was the fuedal lord. He set all economic laws as far as his serfs were concerned. He controlled all access to money and through that kept his serfs under control. Any money they did have he taxed out of them. So, why is socialism the road the serfdom? Because it is government control of production, transportation and distribution. That puts the average man under the complete control of the government. He has no more freedom than the serf in the Middle Ages. When the government controls production it decides who works where, what is produced, how much is produced, etc.... It then decides where the goods are sold and at what price. This makes it possible for massive discrimination by government bureaucrats. Before the Iron Curtain fell there was massive discrimination in Eastern Europe. How was it accomplished? The government controlled who worked where so it could assign entire ethnicities to certain industries. Then it would go after those industries and ruin them with regulation. Thus when accused of discrimination they could say with a small amount of plausibility that they were simply regulating an industry, not discriminating against a minority. It's no wonder that the Soviet Union had alcoholism rates in excess of 50%. Nobody had any hope of improving their lot. The only way was to join the Party. And the government controlled that too.

That would be like carrying a 50 cal handgun when a Glock 22 can do the job.

The U.S. president's guards' weapons are never seen except when imminent danger arises. At least I've never noticed it.

Archaeology is a mixed bag. Sometimes it will seem to support the Bible and sometimes it will seem to contradict the Bible. It is not infallible. However, it is important.

I have not posted this because I wanted to play games. In reading the article, I learned a lesion. I am hoping that others may see the same lesion, which we can discuss.

I SAW THE GUARDS BUT DID NOT see the weapons, and they were none on the airplane the Ted and I travelled on. "Lord protect me from your people"

not in my book, there isn't ...

sorry. I didn't think my questions were silly... I was surprised that Pres. Wilson had armed bodyguards. It struck me as incongruent with the views of many church members on weaponry.

The stand of the denomination that you referenced related to military service. It does not relate to civil police functions which would include armed protection of President Ted.

Did not God promise a military guard of angels for protection? Besides, our church's stand/recommendation has been for SDA young men not to bear arms, and then hire armed men to protect the church president? It seems like a denial of that promise.

I agree that the vote in San Antonio affirmed the Church's position that no entity has the authority to independently go beyond what the church body has approved. The quotation "The Seventh-day Adventist Church affirmed, just one day ago, what it had voted in 1990 and 1995: that no Division nor any of its subunits has the unilateral authority to ordain women to pastoral ministry." that I posted in context as being from (http://www.adventist.nl/2015/07/10/verklaring-inzegening-vrouwen-in-nederland/Posted in Breaking news, Church governance, Council of Adventist Pastors (CAP)) to which lazarus replied made the following point loud and clear: "The decision of the General Conference Session in San Antonio does not change this. Female pastors will continue to be ordained in the Netherlands Union Conference."

Exactly! Nothing that has happen by Islam has changed my mind about 666, etc., I definitely agree with your post 100%

Probably there are many reasons, but I suspect that one reason is that because we appear to have it together, they don't want us to think they don't have it together, and the beat goes on ................. The stranger on the street doesn't care if we watched the game {at least a few minutes} on Sabbath afternoon. If we open the door just a crack and they respond we are off on a completely different relationship. Sad but true That's why I love small group Sabbath School lesson studies. When we come together study and share how the lesson applies to our lives walls come down. We don't have to cover every day to benefit as a group. Taking time to pray together 2x2 before or after class is a time for us to seriously bond.

Obama's election just served to flush out the residual racism that's out there. Just like the flag controversy has flushed out all the confederate flag lovers.

Don't forget Dr Gerrridy, not sure of the spelling. He used to be at AUC, than Andrews and La Sierra? I believe he's retired now?

aisaac0780: Anne says “The ordination of women. If they are or aren’t being ordained is irrelevant.” And yet Paul gives clear council as to who should be ordained. If the Bible speaks on a subject then that subject is important. To call a subject that the Bible deals clearly on “irrelevant”, or to avoid a truth because ‘it’s not a salvation issue’ is Biblically dishonest, and spiritually dangerous. If we deny the truth, in any form, whether it be Sabbath observance, Tithe, diet, honoring one’s parents, and so on, that becomes a salvation issue. As the close of time approaches, we should be more concerned with proper church order and leadership, not less. In the end, what Paul says is clear. Men are to be the spiritual leaders of both home and church. That is what is written, that is what should be done.

If folks are okay with armed guards for President Wilson (I'm okay with that), why are so many against having people with legal concealed weapons in church?

If something happens to Wilson there would be resounding inquiry as to why he didn't have protection. He needs to get all the protection that is deemed necessary.

Nope. Can you imagine what would have happened during WWII if people had demanded the transparency of governments the way it's demanded nowadays? We'd all be speaking either German or Japanese, and eating sauerkraut and/or chop suey every day...

Yes, Gerry, it is the same lack of faith that causes us to seek medical advice from physicians, insure our homes and automobiles, and seek the services of police. God could provide for everyone of those and more. On my first day in a new country, I walked into the grocery store. As I entered, I noted a shot-gun armed guard at the door. In that country, the local SDA Church discussed hiring a guard to protect my car in the parking lot. (NOTE: I had an old Ford, and I told them it was not necessary as thought that my car was the only one that needed protection.) In another country the local Conference was located in the nation's capitol city. Conference officials thought it necessary to employ guards to protect the office, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I can understand why some might think it necessary to protect President Ted at events such as the GC Session in SA. Yes, I saw the same cars as are in the picture above. But, I do not know if they were armored.

The SDA Church is not a pacifist denomination. A pacifist would not serve in the military in any position. The SDA denomination, in the U.S. encourages its members to only serve in the military in a position that does not involve the use of weapons. If the SDA church was pacifist, it would not allow its clergy to serve in the military as chaplains.

Mental illness runs in my family. Other than my alcoholism (which is a mental disorder) I have yet to be diagnosed with any other but... that day may come. My mother is bi-polar. My roommate during college was bi-polar and schizophrenic. I do not believe mental illness is demon possession although I think historically many societies have concluded that. The brain is an organ that can get sick. When it is sick, it needs to be treated. Often times the best way to treat mental illness is a combination of talk-therapy and medication. From what I understand about demon possession, it is most common in societies and groups with occult influence. I suspect the reason we do not see a lot of it in western society is because all the major belief systems (including atheism) shun the occult. Those with mental illness may be more susceptible to demon possession. It is important to follow the doctor's advice and get a second opinion if possible. It is also important to go to some form of talk therapy. And let's not forget Bible study. Doing the daily Sabbath school lesson is a good place to start.

'Socialism', in the broadest definition, is the idea that society exists and that we have some responsibility for others, not just for ourselves. That is often understood in relation to governments having an active role in sharing that responsibility. The Bible definitely strongly supports the first concept - responsibility for others, particularly the vulnerable. Many Christians say it should do that through charity rather than through government, and it's great when it's done, but when the political system is set up in such a way to actively undo the results of charity, I think there's a responsibility to also challenge that. Perhaps, too, as Naomi has indicated, many see charity itself as a problem - at least incoming if not outgoing. In practice, as I said earlier, everyone contributing here thinks government should have some role. No one is calling for anarchy. What that role should be, and how it should be shared between the federal, state and local levels is what we are largely discussing here.

It is good to keep a spiritual emphasis on the children's story, but I am concerned when people want to cut down the time for children in the church service. I feel that children get pitifully little time in the service and we wonder why they find church such a drag. I hated church when little, no matter how much I liked the Bible, hearing Bible stories, and everything that went with it as it was definitely something to endure every week. Children are part of the church family and should be valued. As it is, children hear their short story and then are told to go back to their seat (with the implied message to shut up!). I would also fear for a church that would let newcomers come in and upset the order of church because they weren't happy with the way things are. I say this because I have seen in other religions are marked different manner of dealing with children in their worship service. For many years I attend a conservative synagogue. There, the children are a very important part of the worship service. Torah reading, of course, is done every Sabbath. If a child is being Bar/Bat Mitzvad, they read the Torah portion. During the chanting of the prayer, the children were up/down from the bimah frequently. When the Torah was taken thru the congregation, the children followed. When the challah was eaten, the children were there. When not on the bimah for a part in the service, they played in the aisles. Amazingly, they were quiet and did not intrude into the service. So many times I wished the church would be as kind to children as the synagogue was. And we also see how the religion has survived so well since the return from Babylon before Jesus came. And ponder it when you are wondering why so many children leave the church. Oh! BTW, the story detailed was great. How could you have a problem with it?