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I've been meaning to start this topic for some time now... What is your criteria for accepting people? Honestly, what is it? (And please, don't just give the PC response of "I accept everyone just where they are, and how they are." Nobody does that 100% of the time.) There's a general inclination to accept those whose viewpoints and ideals are the same or similar to one's own. But what about those whose views differ, or they somehow step on toes, or they look or sound different? I've seen on various forums, including this one, where, if a new member posts something whiney and goes on and on about being mistreated in the church, or posts an idea or opinion in a way that might seem offensive, etc, one of two things happen. And a lot of it depends on whether that person has a friendship with someone here. If we *know* a new member personally, we give LOTS of slack, sympathy, etc. If we *don't* know someone, we label them, criticize and chastise them, and sometimes toss them out the door of our minds, or literally bounce them out the doors of the forum or the church. Is it always the right thing to "shake the dust" off our sandals and dismiss someone new whose presence we dislike on a forum or in church? (Of course, there are times when someone is so disruptive and/or is a "spammer" that they need to be booted in order to preserve the safety and well-being of the church or forum.)

In an ideal world, we should accept everyone. Sorry; I don't live in an ideal world. I "try" to like everyone; but I fail to like some people. This sounds shallow; but I generally accept people who accept me. I am very quirky; and some people can't deal with it. If they get to know me and CAN handle my eccentricity; I'm usually happy to accept them as well. I have a difficult time accepting people that have a need to "fix" me. I'm OK with folks telling me I'm full of a noxious brown substance, I know I am. I am willing to temprarily reign in certain objectionable aspects of my personality to fit in with certain groups (like church and work); but eventually the real me comes out - the Jesus-freak, potty-mouthed hippie with no filters who hangs out with the wrong crowd. It's one thing to give feedback to someone on things that push your buttons; it's an entirely different thing to insist that someone change for you so you don't have to change for them. I recently read a book called "True-Faced" by Bill Thrall, Bruce McNicol, and John Lynch. It's premise is that it's better to be yourself and absorb the collateral damage than to try to be who you think everyone wants you to be. (This includes our relationship with Christ) I try to follow that philosophy. It has cost me some "friends" (were they really friends to begin with?). People can tell when you are putting on a front. I can usually tell if someone is putting on a front. One of the things that I find annoying (if not downright unacceptable) are most people (usually church folk) who claim that everything is OK and they are continuously blessed. Call me "jaded"; but everyone has issues. I am more accepting of people who are honest, and willing to talk about the issues in their lives and show an interest in my issues. I am less accepting of people who tell me how awesome their life is and how I would be so much "better" if I would live and think like them rather than like me - especially when they have some of the same issues that they are trying to change in me. I can usually tolerate weirdness and dysfunctionality from honest people. What I find hard to accept is weirdness and dysfunctionality from people who pretend that they are not weird or dysfunctional. I'd rather deal with a "real" dysfunctional person that an"fake" normal person (whatever normal is).

I am glad JESUS accepts everyone! As we get closer to Jesus coming we will see that in His Children more and more. I can't wait!

Oh, another aspect to include with the above is understanding God's wrath. We tend to see God as a spanking father who's wrath punishes us. God's wrath is towards sin, limiting it's effects on us. Saying to the waves of chaos "Thus far and no further!" God's wrath is a merciful thing keeping the results of sin at bay, like waves coming on a beach. God's punishments fit the crime. At the end of the world when people have chosen Satan as their leader, the punishment is allowing Satan to be our leader. The 7 bowels of God's wrath that we have been able to drink to keep sin at bay are poured out into the ground, no longer there to keep sin at bay. Mediation is God keeping sin at bay while he pleads for us to come to him. Once every decision is done, and God's mercy/wrath has been permanently rejected, he will not force it on us but pours his perfect wrath (the 7 bowels) into the ground and sadly allows us to reap the results. Thus standing before God without a mediator means that God trusts that we are his friends and that he no longer has to try to win us over to him, and that his wrath will no longer say to the waves of chaos "thus far and no further" but a tsunami of evil will flood the world and yes we will suffer but to expect this and know that God will come just as we are about to destroy ourselves.

After that tragedy at that church in Charleston, anything is possible.

Relax, Pam. your comments, as usual, were appropriate and worthy of discussion. Who knows, in 2020 the newly elected GC President may be protected by more high-tech than we have seen so far. It may be very dangerous to be the President of the GC. GM

so let me get this straight... if one of the wackos that came to San Antonio began trying to have a fist fight with Ted, he should not defend himself?

3 and 1/2 years could very well have something to do with the last events. Consider the following: Elijah, whom we are told represents those of us who will be alive at the Lord's appearing,was nourished for the period of a 3 1/2 year famine by ravens. At the end of that time, he went back to see Ahab and had the showdown at Mt. Carmel. Then he saw a "small black cloud," the sign of rain, and also, we are told, the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds. Jesus had a 3 1/2 year ministry before death was decreed for Him. His disciples preached for 3 1/2 years to the Jews; then death was decreed for Stephen. The Jewish temple was surrounded by Roman soldiers in 66 A.D. Those who saw the sign and believed in Christ fled Jerusalem (as we are warned to flee the cities when the Sunday Law comes). Then 3 1/2 years later, destruction came to the city, but the believers were saved. I don't know about you, but the Bible stories are so filled with such interesting "coincidences" that we must wonder if they are trying to tell us something important about our time. After all, SOP says "history will be repeated."

I would like to add a "2a" to this above list. While at Atlantic Union College this was basically taught, it was not until I was at Andrews and walked into a Sabbath School class taught by Dr. Deteren (spelling) that this really clicked. Dr. D lecture included that the Roman Catholic understanding of mediation is that man reaches out to his priest, who reaches out to the saints, who reaches out to Mary, who reaches out to Jesus, who reaches out to the Father for us. When Protestants came they had this structure and what they did was remove the middle men, and had us reach out to Jesus who reaches out to the Father. However in the Bible (such as in Exodus 19:5 and in Revelation) we find that Biblical mediation runs in the opposite direction from Catholic/Protestant mediation. God reaches out to us through Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit through the angels and the Bible to God's people who are to reach out to the world around us. After hearing Dr. D. and talking this over with Graham Maxwell who agrees, there is another understanding of standing without a mediator. God has been reaching out to us. After the close of probation God's relationship with us changes. He no longer has to plead with us to accept him. Those who have accepted him are firm in our relationship. Those who have not never will. Yes we still come to the Father through Christ, but that means we come to the power of God through our friendship with him. Mediation is trying to call us into this relationship. Mediation is no longer needed. Both Elder D. and Graham Maxwell said (and I believe this is consistent with what I learned in college) is that we tend to read into this quote the traditional Catholic/Protestant version and direction of mediation, rather than the Biblical version and direction.

Paul has often been translated via current cultures and assumptions that is not always in his words but which we think are there due to how it was translated and how tradition tells us it should be understood.

These are interesting times for the SDA Church. One group within our midst call upon us to return to the faith of our founding Fathers and Mothers. Although it can be argued as to which faith we should return to. There is an increasing call for us to more narrowly define the denominational boundaries that proscribe those who are outside the "true faith." I will suggest that EGW had some valued things to say on this. The following comes from her book: Counsels to Writers and Editors. It should be noted that I have bolded parts that I find interesting.

I saw this broad title here and must say.. JESUS IS THE TRUTH And for eternity it will always be unveiling. We as a Church just have facts when we are without JESUS. As the day is long I see facts declared and defended. ... I love seeing JESUS in people! It is very attractive! "the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."

Heart breaking for sure. But we ain't seen nothing yet. Come Lord Jesus Come. Amen!

Maybe in 2020 our vision might be better? [That is if Jesus does not see the necessity to come before then.]

I wish I'd never started this topic. OF COURSE, Ted should defend himself if he was attacked!!!!! OF COURSE, if he was in danger, he should have armed protection!!!! OF COURSE, there are nut cases all over who might try to harm people. **sigh** I give up. Really. I do...

I address the GC President as President Ted for the following reasons: 1) It is an honorable position and title. 2) The duties of the GC President remove the President far from the relationship that a congregational pastor must build with the members. 3) If God calls one to serve as GC President, then take both the position and the title. Do not asume the title of a position one has not been call to take--a congregational pastor.

Awesome ... I do so love seeing pictures such as this. Just imagine how amazing it will be to actually do our own personal flyby Thank Gregory for sharing this bit of history

Your account of the financial crisis is accurate as far as it goes, but only goes halfway. Another factor was that Greenspan and Bernanke kept interest rates artificially low for a long time to boost the markets, which led to rises in property prices because mortgages were cheaper. But the real key was that the banks took all of those shaky, insecure, high-risk mortgages and bundled them up into securitised financial instruments and sold them to large institutional investors as though they were high quality, low risk investments. When the crisis hit, those investors lost as well as the homeowners being foreclosed on. That made the scale of the crisis much vaster than it would otherwise have been. I think this is one of the problems: the sources you're reading focus on the 'sins' of the poor - getting mortgages they couldn't afford - and ignore the sins of the rich - fraudulently selling bad investments as good. A balanced perspective acknowledges both. Last point: the Fannie Mae problems and bad mortgages were caused by a lack of prudential regulations of the banks, but your position is that regulation is a bad thing. Can't have it both ways. Bad mortgages are what you get when there are not limits on the level of risk - in terms of size of deposit and level of ability to service the debt - banks can assume. Regulation protects: which is why social democratic Australia weathered the crisis much better than the US.

Or when we edit out those portions that might tell us we are doing something God forbids as in the Queen James bible

There was a story about Mrs. White at a campmeeting. There were some people planning to do some mischief like make her tent fall on her or something like that. The campmeeting hired a policeman to protect her. She felt that due to her job that she could depend on the angels to protect her, but since others were concerned she did allow the policeman to protect her. He was a Catholic. He soon stopped protecting her because he saw an angel over her tent protecting her. He kneeled and did the sign of the cross. This was a very moving experience for him. I am not positive but I believe he became a Seventh-day Adventist because of this. However, Mrs. White was in a special place with a special ministry that required the extra protection. Most of us are not in that position. Even in her day the officials at Campmeeting saw the need to hire an armed bodyguard. She saw it as unnecessary due to her ministry. However she accepted it. Elder Wilson's work is important, but not as important and special as Mrs. White's work was. We live in a day where it's not people wanting to cut tent ropes for the tent to fall down, but want to be a part of these senseless shootings that we have seen so often in recent years. (and this is not including my wondering how many angels were welcomed to San Antonio).

Yes indeed Dr. Geraty. However I left him out for 2 reasons: First being too afraid that I was going to mess up the spelling of his name. (Fortunately I found it online just now). But also the church's shift that I am whining about has moved him out of the position where he should be. We don't respect our archaeologists today as we did in the 1950s. A sad part of this was in this sad General Conference he was given 2 minutes to speak. As he was coming up to speak there were some delegates who just "happened" to be in his way delaying his approach to the microphone. The chairman up front started his two minutes from the moment he left his seat and the delegates that got in his way ended up taking a large amount of his 2 minutes so he had to be cut short. If we had treated Dr. Horn or Dr. Thiele this disrespectful way our members would have been in an uproar.

As Dr. Fleming pointed out in that youtube I shared; at times when it appears to contradict the Bible it is because the archaeologist wants his own dates and original things hoping that he will be the new standard. Also, there is a fear of too much supporting the Bible so they may be looking for things to try to make it different. In these cases we can still evaluate the evidence and maybe come up with our own conclusions. However there are indeed places where the evidence does seem to contradict the Bible, but I have found that often it is not really contradicting the Bible but our understanding of what we expect the Bible to say due to our traditions.

I'm in agreement Kevin. I know of no Jewish/Adventist pastor that doesn't agree with what you have stated in your post.

Nope. Can you imagine what would have happened during WWII if people had demanded the transparency of governments the way it's demanded nowadays? We'd all be speaking either German or Japanese, and eating sauerkraut and/or chop suey every day...

It is a good question - but to discuss it with substance we must first see exactly what it is that we are talking about. so then ===================================================== Early Writings: I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.{EW 71.1} I saw that many were neglecting the preparation so needful and were looking to the time of “refreshing” and the “latter rain” to fit them to stand in the day of the Lord and to live in His sight. Oh, how many I saw in the time of trouble without a shelter! They had neglected the needful preparation; therefore they could not receive the refreshing that all must have to fit them to live in the sight of a holy God. Those who refuse to be hewed by the prophets and fail to purify their souls in obeying the whole truth, and who are willing to believe that their condition is far better than it really is, will come up to the time of the falling of the plagues, and then see that they needed to be hewed and squared for the building. But there will be no time then to do it and no Mediator to plead their cause before the Father. Before this time the awfully solemn declaration has gone forth, “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” I saw that none could share the “refreshing” unless they obtain the victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action. We should, therefore, be drawing nearer and nearer to the Lord and be earnestly seeking that preparation necessary to enable us to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. Let all remember that God is holy and that none but holy beings can ever dwell in His presence.{EW 71.2} As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus’ mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment. {EW 280.2} ============================================== So then it is true for all mankind that there is no more atoning sacrifice - no blood to cover sins after that point. But for the saints we have the same fellowship with God - the same "no longer I who live but Christ that lives in me" as before. Yet there is no more sacrifice for sin. That is a very "different" kind of "Close of Probation" than one might experience by simply being in a fatal car crash. And the one who accepts Christ today - then dies tonight has the offer of forgiveness of sin right up until the last - -- this is not true of those that live through the time of the 7 last plagues.

Rachel has raised important questions. SDAs are divided on the answer to her questions. Generally SDAs fit into the following positions: 1) Ellen White was correct and means exactly what she said--There will be a time when people will stand without a mediator. At that time one had better be one of the redeemed. 2) Ellen White was correct, but has been misunderstood by many. As long as Satan is active, it would be impossible for a human to live without the power of God/Christ giving them that life. Therefore, it could not be correct to say that one could live without a mediator in the commonly understood sense. 3) Ellen White was simply wrong. She did not understand what she was saying. Humans cannot live without the indwelling power of God/Christ.

apparently people have been ordained without laying on of hands. people have been married without a wedding also. in various parts of the world there are a variety of ways the information that two are committed to each other, for life. not always a formal wedding. a wedding formalizes to the community something that has already happened, two people love each other and have made a commitment to build a home together. the wedding doesn't make it so, it just makes known publicly the commitment that already exists. maybe ordination is something like that. it is not necessary to the commitment to God, and the ministry that is already taking place, but it makes a public statement about what already is.

To those who try to silence this movement with delay and diversionary efforts to change the subject, the wisdom of Gamaliel from Acts 5:38-39 always comes to my mind - "For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown. But if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow it, and you would be found even to be fighting against God!"