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If people are against WO, they should simply go to a church with a male pastor. Personally, I like female pastors. I've been avoiding the WO debate lately because IMO it is not a salvational issue; and no one is going to convice anyone else to "switch sides". If the Bible were crystal clear on this issue maybe we wouldn't be having these debates.

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

I don't think anything is more important than our view of God. When we think of Jesus, and how He treated those who were rejected by society, what comes to mind? How did Jesus treat lepers and prostitutes? If we think God loathes those who practice X, that He reacts with disgust and violence to such, what does that say of our view of God's character?

A major rule os statistics - correlation is not the same as causation.

I can't speak for this island or their language, however, AWR (Adventist World Radio), with God's help, has managed to reach extremely remote areas. They have skilled translators who have created miracles . I would hope that if they have not reached this island that perhaps in the not so distant future our radios will appear and bring the Good News of Salvation to the natives.

some folks say that we can hasten Christ's return or delay it. But as I read the Bible, it is at an appointed time. Ready or not there is a time that Jesus will come.

So for those parents that don't pray they can expect an out of control child.? The child is out of control because of the parents lack in discipline and controlling their child. If the child was acquainted with the word No and that is what it meant the problem would have been resolved rather quickly. We had a toddler in our church some years ago when my children were small. He was a tyrant .He was so disruptive that it made church service difficult for all. You did not want him sitting behind you as you might find yourself getting whacked with the hymnal. Mom and dad repeatedly said "now please stop that isn't nice". Guess what he didn't care because he didn't have to. The parents had been spoken to privately and nothing changed,he was just a high spirited toddler. We got a new pastor,after a couple of services the pastor stopped the service and just stood there. He told the parents if they would kindly take the child to the children's room he would continue with the service. That was the end of any problem with this child. Suddenly the parents,embarrassed enough took control of the little angel and he could behave. Children should not be allowed to control the adults,regardless if the parents believe in prayer or not

In my experience with Rachel, I find that she has spent much time in study to reach he conclusions. Coming from that time spent in study, I find her to have a commitment to what she believes to be Biblical doctrine. But, I reject any suggestion that she studies Scripture just to find how it supports her view. I believe that she is open to the discovery of Biblical truth, wherever it may lead. She and I do disagree on some points. But, this is just part of our human condition. No human has a full and complete understanding of truth. She is welcome to come here and participate in our discussions.

There have been times that I protect VIP from those who felt they wanted to give them hours of unsolicited advice.. Kind of an unarmed body guard ,, Sometimes we need to protect leaders from our own people.

Whoever decided must have concluded that angelic protection is too costly under the surveillance of varied cultures and tempers and perception of Biblical truths.

For some, admitting you’re a Christian is tough. I’ve never had that problem. I used to be a self-absorbed binge drinker with obsessive tendencies, and thanks to the Lord, I’m now a people-loving Jesus freak. However what the secular crowd doesn’t always realize about Christians is that we’re still human, and we have weaknesses that can still surface under certain arduous circumstances. All very first-world problems of course, but here goes: Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Galleries/Top-5-Hardest-Moments-to-Maintain-Your-Christianity.aspx ps:If you have others, feel free to add!

Haven't read this thread, only the title. But I believe we don't NEED a mediator! Our heavenly Father God loves us just as much as Jesus does! I think EGW's comment which is quoted in this heading came from a time in her life when she hadn't yet reached the understanding about the loving heavenly Father's tenderness toward all His created children; she felt the forensic type of doctrine, in which sinners need to have a mediator "in the court of an angry God." That is not the case! And EGW changed her mind on that topic, too, after her sojourn in Australia, where she wrote some of her most well-loved books, including DESIRE OF AGES. Sorry I don't have the references handy. But I know, and fully believe, that God the Father loves us just as much as Jesus does. Jesus said He came to this earth to show us the Father. And if we can identify with Jesus, and trust Him to love us fully, then we must also know that He came and revealed to us His heavenly Father, God the Father. The idea of an angry God comes from Satan. He is the one who developed the false doctrine of hell, with an ever-burning fire. I do not believe in an everlasting fire, and I don't believe in an angry God. Those are false doctrines, IMHO. Satan is doing his best to wean us away from God's love. I don't intend to let him take over my mind.

This sounds right, that it could be trust issues, or feelings of inadequacy. If I'm not sure about God viz a viz me, that can lead me to try things that will build myself up as a defense mechanism.

I have a dear friend who is actually a real cowboy. He is all about horses and rides and cares and feeds and grooms and puts up horse pictures on my FB page all the time. He is a new SDA Christian (two years) and deep in the Closet. He came out to me and my Buddy after awhile. I already thought he was gay cause of my blasted Gaydar. He is part of a Christian Men Fellowship up here in the woods. The topic of gays came up in the light of the recent events. Since they are all among themselves and everyone is thought to be straight. They let loose. Of course it went beyond the stuff in the news. The gays were hammered like roadkill in worth with God's hatred. Cant wait for the F_____ts to burn when Jesus comes. Satan himself put the homos here to be against Jesus. It got worse than that. The Cowboy is still reeling. The reason I bring this up is that when you good people read the OP on this thread. It is important to know that God doesn't love gays less than you. Nor does HE punish them more than you. And the perpetuation of the Lie it was ALL about the mass constant touching of male genitalia to male genitalia Sending God into a fire breathing tizzy. We as imperfect Sinners internalize it and gets into our physic on how we should treat gays. How to look upon them. If you look closely you will see (in the 5 pages) those kinds of comments here. Stressing the big and the tiny thoughts in what our culture and imperfect theology reads into this story. We can haggle as the the day is long over these points but what it really comes down to is what kind of FRUIT does it yield? The CROSS is blocked from view for my new Christian Friend who talks of throwing away fellowship altogether. Yes He wants GOD and loves HIM. But can't take the Christian culture he is still new to. Looking at the Story of Sodom we get plenty of ammo to shoot people down. If it is lensed thru the Cross of Jesus.... We all will see .. "they" and "us" are exactly the same.in HIS EYES. And we of course will follow Him by casting down our own imaginations and that exalts itself over the other Children of GOD.. God bless you all! # pray for him..he don't think he can stand another mass christian man verbal tirade and keeps telling me he dont know how me and buddy can take it over and over again. He is in awe we still go to church!

Death of one's spouse, children or parents. Loss of employment. Divorce. Bankruptcy. Poverty. Rape. Wrongful imprisonment. Diagnosis of terminal illness.

Rachel has raised some interesting questions which are actually quite complex. I will only comment on her suggestion that Muslims consider Jews to be lower than pigs. This is a common perception in the Islamic world. But, It is more deeply held by Shites. It is loosely based on the Quran 5:60 and 2:65. It is expanded beyond the Quran in the Hadith. That is an important factor in considering this issue. In the early days, it was only applied to Jews. Later Christians were also included In more modern times the Sunni have applied it to Shites. In some of its applications, it is only applied to individuals who have committed specific sins according to Islamic thought. In other applications, it has been applied to ethnic groups. In more modern times persons are thought be actual decendents of pigs but not actual pigs themselves.

Thousands of Muslims, all over the world, are turning to Jesus as the Divine Son of God. They risk death in so doing. When did we Westerners risk death, in turning to Jesus as our LORD and Savior? To believe that GOD had a son, is anathema to a Muslim. Much less a Trinity of three divine beings. Muslims believe that Jesus will return as a prophet, who will turn the world to Islam - by force. So their Jesus is our Antichrist. Jews are considered by Muslims, to be lower than pigs. Jews do not eat pork. Jews actually do worship only ONE divine being. Jews do not bow down to idols. Those practices do NOT make them acceptable to Muslims. Thousands of Muslims are becoming weary of the violence, and the cruelty. ISIS has revealed, to this modern age - the true nature of ISLAM. ISIS is actually causing thousands to turn from that religion of violence. I personally support "The Jesus Film Project". This is a film based entirely upon the Gospel of Luke. It follows Scripture very accurately. All dialog is from Luke's Gospel. The film has been translated into some 800+ languages and dialects. Digital copies of that film, have penetrated into Muslim areas more deeply than any other Christian outreach. You can watch the video for free at the website.

So WHEN is the "time of the end" ?? Personally, I think the "time, times and a part', 1260 days, 42 months, (that period of time) seems a better candidate for "the time of the end" - the time leading up to the END. I know that Adventists interpreted the prophecy of the 1260 as ENDING in back in 1798, when the Pope was taken captive. The Pope's captivity did NOT end the Papacy, or the Roman Catholic Church. Adventists say this was the "deadly wound" for "the beast". But the 1260 days (time-times-and a part, 42 months) END with the heavenly court scene, and with dominion given to Christ and His saints. That time period does not END with the "deadly wound". The healing of the "deadly wound" is what BEGINS that time period. Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:3 NKJ) "The deadly wound was healed". THEN "he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. During this 42 months, "it was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them" FOR 42 months (1260 days, time-times-and a part). This is just what it says in Daniel, about the "little horn". He speaks pompous words" (7:11). He "was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them UNTIL the judgment came down in favor of the saints (7:22). "The saints shall be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time." The period of their persecution ENDS with the judgment of the heavenly "court". Now - someone might argue that the court will sit at the beginning of the 1260 days. I would consider that argument. More likely, the "appointed times" tell us WHEN the "court" of judgment will sit. That "appointed time" would be the "Day of Atonement". Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

There is a time for war and a time for peace.

I guess that if you don't want to change your opinion why would you look at real and substantive evidence.

It has always been a hard row to hoe. Both Noah and Lot had to find the right balance. Make the message to harsh or to urgent and get blown off as radical. Or make the message too loving and watered down and it gets put off.

No swearing all over facebook isn't acceptable. Foul language is very common and most people don't think anything of it. Perhaps she was yelling for it to stop. Maybe to be heard above the child. Doubtful she was screaming at the child,more likely the clueless mother. Had I been there trying to have a meal I would more than likely leave after the first 15 minutes and would inform the owner as to why. The mother had the first and most important responsibility. That is to control her toddler. If she can't control the child maybe the child should not be brought to places where she can make everyone else miserable I would have been to embarrassed to whine on facebook that my child controlled me instead of the other way around

Thank you Gregory. I just want to find what is true. I seriously doubt Ellen White, therefore I do not give any consideration to writings published under her name. I want to understand what the Bible says. Jackson, Because you believe something to be true, does not make it so. The same applies to me. I want to see where the weight of the evidence falls.

Administrative Note: No, you are the one continuing more of the very same non-responsiveness as you accuse others of. You response to anything of substance in opposition to what you post is met with whining and complaining about others. Stop it. Just stop it. If you have a problem with another member do not hijack a topic with such diversionary complaints and arguments. Send that person a PM or contact a moderator or Administrator by PM. And no, a "normal conversation or dialog" does not play point vs. counter-point on a given subject. That is called a debate. Debates have structure and rules. Conversations, not so much. Save "bouncing the ball back and forth" for basket ball. And yes, it is that simple. You don't seem to get it that you are driving this off subject by your evasion of engagement in the substance of the topic. Back to the topic, please.

It just dawned on me Who is Coming out Ministries is! I saw him on 3ABN with Cheri Peters on CELEBRATE RECOVERY.. I have stuff by Joe Carducci.. a dear Saint sent me about 3 years ago. I hope u keep coming back. I adore this guy! And thank you Aubrey! I found this!

I don't think church attendance is a prerequisite for being nice to others...

I think the vast majority are on the side of the restaurant owner...

FAITH ‘Are You Stupid?’: Gay Baker Lashes Out at His Fellow Gays and Lesbians for ‘Bullying’ Christian Bakers Who Declined to Make Same-Sex Wedding Cake Jul. 20, 2015 11:59am Billy Hallowel A gay baker and chef has come out in support of Christian bakers who have come under fire for refusing to make same-sex wedding cakes, labeling those individuals and activists who are trying to force them to do so as ”Nazis” who are using “bullying” tactic Jesse Bartholomew uploaded a two-minute video to his Facebook page earlier this month, expressing his frustration with some of his fellow gays and lesbians who have gone after bakers who decline to make cakes for gay ceremonies. The clip came just days after it was announced that Oregon bakers Aaron and Melissa Klein, owners of Sweetcakes by Melissa, would be fined $135,000 for refusing to make a wedding cake for a lesbian couple. “Hi guys, my name is Jesse and I bake wedding cakes for a living, and I cannot tell you how disgusted I am with my fellow gay and lesbian community — that they would stoop so low as to force someone to bake a cake for them who simply doesn’t agree with them,” Bartholomew said. “And before you can go and blame me and say that they have to — no, they don’t have to. They don’t have to bake a cake for you.” Bartholomew, who did not explicitly name the Kleins, went on to explain that wedding cakes cost hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, and questioned why gays and lesbians would want to pay that much money to make someone bake a cake against their will. “Are you stupid? That is your personal piece of your wedding. Your guests eat that,” he said. “That cake is involved in your photos. That cake is taken in your mouth, and you eat it in your stomach.” Bartholomew went on to accuse some of bulling — and worse. “There’s no other bakers out there?” he rhetorically asked. “It’s plain and simple: you are bullying someone, you are forcing someone, you are being a Nazi and forcing someone to bake a damn wedding cake for you when there are hundreds of other gays and lesbians that would gladly have your business. Shame on you.”

It is a matter of freedom. I discussed this question with a Lutheran parson the other day. We have the freedom to refuse performing the marriage of a gay couple, even if our own ishop or conference president should ever encourage us to do it. But does that preclude a gay person from entering a worship service in our church? Why should we refuse to preach the gospel to a gay person? Have we ever refused to preach the gospel to a thief, an adulterer or a liar? Did Jesus come to save sinners?

Jackson, I try - not to use the "you" word. As in - You do this. or You have this agenda. or This is what you are trying to do. I feel that type of language is a personal attack. I could just ignore it, and keep posting my opinions, but I feel that personal attacks should be called what they are. Personal attacks are a way is discrediting a person, so as to dismiss him/her. It has been my experience that folks with strong arguments for their position, do not usually resort to personal attacks. This is a forum. I realize that it is an Adventist forum, but from what I understand, folks with differing opinions are invited to post. To disagree on a point of doctrine is NOT an attack upon the whole of Adventist teaching. If every disagreement is labeled an "attack", then this forum would become like others, which do not allow such "attacks". I disagree with the Adventist interpretation of the 2300 evening/mornings. In my opinion, we do NOT YET have the full understanding of that prophecy. The Book of Daniel was sealed - after all - until the "time of the end". Adventists say that "the time of the end" began back in 1844. I disagree. That is my opinion. Because I have an opinion, you say that I have an agenda to overturn everything Adventist. I actually agree with most of what Adventism teaches. I believe we should rest on the Sabbath, and keep all of the 10 Commandments. I believe that we are saved by grace, but our reward will be based upon our obedience to the Law of God. I believe the lost will be judged by their disobedience to the Law of God. I believe the earth will be desolate and lifeless during the 7th millennium. I do NOT agree that our God is a trinity of three divine beings, but then neither did the Adventists for the first 50 years. I believe that the Feasts were prophecy, and that the Day of Atonement prophecy would/will be fulfilled. (That agrees with Adventism.) The scapegoat has NOT YET been banished to the uninhabited place, so at least that part of the Day of Atonement prophecy - we would agree - is future. The reason that I continue to dialog, is to learn. Where my arguments are weak, I WANT to see it. That sends me back to study more deeply, or to rewrite, so that I can express my opinion more clearly. So - I thank you for pointing out contradictions or inconsistencies. I will work on those.

Why should this be different than hiring a Baptist or a Methodist? You are not hiring an evangelist.

I'd like to see those analyses done by socioeconomic status rather than race: the two things are strongly correlated in the US, but the crime stats among blacks and whites of similar SES are similar. Race is a poor label for these purposes.

The way the Adventist denomination views EGW is a stumbling block for most people who study the Scriptures. I have no problem with testing what EGW has said and if it's good, keep it but if it's not, get rid of it. Once you put a person on a pedestal it becomes very hard to get rid of the errors spoken by that person. You even begin to find people tweaking what was said by that person in order to maintain their status. Let's exalt the truth that has been tested and tried, not the person. I think once the SDA does that they will find many would return to the fold.

Excerpted from ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS Chapter 6 "INTO ACTION" (Page 83-84) If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain insight into our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for outselves. Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them.

apparently people have been ordained without laying on of hands. people have been married without a wedding also. in various parts of the world there are a variety of ways the information that two are committed to each other, for life. not always a formal wedding. a wedding formalizes to the community something that has already happened, two people love each other and have made a commitment to build a home together. the wedding doesn't make it so, it just makes known publicly the commitment that already exists. maybe ordination is something like that. it is not necessary to the commitment to God, and the ministry that is already taking place, but it makes a public statement about what already is.

I submit that if we do not have this vote now it will only serve to farther divide the church. Lines have been drawn alliances made, whichever way it goes there will be hostile people. There will also be God's children who understand that our purpose is to be servants and spread the message. Those truly committed will continue whatever the outcome! Women have been preaching and ministering since Bible times.

Well put Anne Isaac

​This is my opinion (based on my spiritual discernment [For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.] ): It is interesting how things look to different people today. Things that grasp the attention of some today are forgotten tomorrow. When the Supreme Court declares America independent from God, the candidate ratings above will get shuffled around. When God reacts to America's rebellion by removing His protection from US, the candidates on this list will have their ratings shuffled yet again. And then when Iran attacks America's fleet in the Gulf, the shocked country that focused so much interest on the bedroom and so little interest on doing the right thing, will have another wild political swing. It would not surprise me if this list got stood on its head in a month or less. For now, I'll put this thread on my watch list, sit on the sidelines and remain silent. Until some epic event like the #IranUSwar reshuffles the mix. After the time of proactive preventive maintenance is past, I will see how the reactionary knee jerk reflexes come into play. (If you only knew what I know)