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I did and I still have the same thought. So either your not saying it so I understand or I just don't understand what your saying!!

"You carry matters to extremes and do harm to your own soul and to the truth. YOU MAKE THE TRUTH REPULSIVE AND CAUSE SOULS TO BE AFRAID OF IT. Let love soften your words and give tone to your actions, and you will find a change in those with whom you associate. There will be peace, union, and harmony, instead of strife, jealousy, and discord. Let love and tenderness be exercised, . . . and you will receive a blessing." {2T 439.1}

Truth? Truth is based on fact. Fact is based on evidence. Evidence is based on facts that indicate if something is true. Creation? Truth...God created us and everything. Why? Because of the fact that we, and everything else, are here. There is more evidence to prove the fact of creation than there is that we came from pond scum and everything just happened. Test the facts and weigh the evidence. In other words…Test all things; hold fast to what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 It’s just that simple… The evidence in creation bears witness to the facts and testify to what is true. Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Things in creation give evidence and bear witness to the truth. Genesis 2:3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. The seven day week with the seventh day being special is more important than you think. What happens to nations that deny the truth found in creation? They believe the lie. Romans 1:24-32 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. What we see going on in the world today is the fruit of people who are denying the truth and believing the lie. They are not believing A lie, they are believing THE lie. The lie is, "There is no Creator God". Everything we see going on in the world today is the fruit of that.

I came to this conclusion too after studying the link between a lot of the ideologies being thrown at us today alongside the mindset and behavior that is the product of those ways of thinking. I like your OP, Scuba.

Before engaging a Muslim (or anyone else) in a religious discussion, It is important to establish a trusting, friendly relationship forst. People generally don't put much weight on what you have to say untl they are confident that you care what they say. When most Muslims realize that you are a friend and not a foe, they will open up to you. Some Christian missionaries (like Leif Hetland and several missionaries with AFM) are respected by Islam. Why? Because these missionaries love them first; and then preach to them once a positive relationship has been established.

For some, admitting you’re a Christian is tough. I’ve never had that problem. I used to be a self-absorbed binge drinker with obsessive tendencies, and thanks to the Lord, I’m now a people-loving Jesus freak. However what the secular crowd doesn’t always realize about Christians is that we’re still human, and we have weaknesses that can still surface under certain arduous circumstances. All very first-world problems of course, but here goes: Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Galleries/Top-5-Hardest-Moments-to-Maintain-Your-Christianity.aspx ps:If you have others, feel free to add!

Aubrey: Exactly right. I simply did nto have the time when I posted to get into those issues. Naomi: Yes, the person, as a part of "Getting right with God" might want to confess. The clergy person might want to lead the person to confess. But, it would be the right of the person to decide. Under the laws, this is called the right of "privilege." The right of privilege belongs to the defendant, not the clergyperson, in a case like this. But, a judge can say that conditions do not confer privilege.

A laughably familiar accusation that has been recklessly tossed around before by a few others opposed to women in ministry with nothing of real substantive value to add to the discussion. When I say familiar, It is an understatement. We have heard this almost verbatim, as if you are simply repeating the accusation of some else who was once active here that left in a major huff over the matter. Hmmmm.... He was even given the opportunity to have his very own subforum to moderate where he could post all things opposed to WO and women in ministry without interference to correct what he also claimed as an imbalanced perspective on the issue around here. But before he left in a huff, he completely wiped out, deleted, everything on his subform. When I say laughable, I am simply noting the absurdity of suggesting there is a lack of anything of substance allowed in opposition, that this is a biased and one sided discussion. Yes, of course there are more here that are participating that are in favor of women in ministry. But to say no other point of view is allowed is the absurdity, especially from someone being given ample opportunity to openly express and defend his position of opposition to WO. There is in fact plenty of material in opposition posted. If you would spend the time actually going back through and reading the considerable volume of topics collected in this subforum of discussions over a considerable number of years, you will see that there have have been many vigorous discussions actually in quite some depth covering all sides and facets of the subject. Your accusations, including no attempt to open the Bible, clearly reflect a lack of awareness of the literally decades of discussion most of us have been engaged in on the topic, both here and elsewhere. We do get tired of repeating ourselves to those unwilling to dig into the substantial volume of resources posted, just in the pinned topics at the top of the menu for this subforum. Those same accusations and pleas for more time and a need for more study are the continued disingenuous refrain from many adamantly opposed to women in ministry and WO to which I referred. This has been exhaustively studied and well documented for 4 decades at least. (Actually by most reasonable accounts this issue has been a part of the entire history of the Adventist Church.) That some choose not to avail themselves of the resources that are available or that claim ignorance really have a very thin excuse. And finally, regarding personal attacks, you seem to confuse any opposition to your point of view or challenge to your ideas and arguments as a personal attack. That is not personal. It is not defaming anyone. You cannot defame an idea. Just because your ideas and arguments are attacked does not mean you are attacked.

living in major depression living in active addiction with ptsd having leadership responsibilities in the church and being severely legalistic. having been violated by your SDA father who is an ordained minister. learning that child molesting SDA pastors have been merely moved from territory to territory over the years, in in the world mission field. this is just five, not mine personally but from communicating with others these were tough ones.

Wrong once again. Completely missing the point. And reading into what I said what is simply not there. Not a proof text, nor was it presented as such. It was applied well within the context. That you cannot see the rather obvious application of the the wisdom of Gamaliel is not within my reach to fix. As in the Acts 5 context, this is not about any doctrinal dispute. What I posted is hardly original with me. And by wonderful coincidence my men's small group had Acts 5 as the focus of its reading and study. We specifically talked about this application of Gamaliel's wisdom to the current dispute over women in ministry. The consensus was affirming what I have posted. The pastor in the group mentioned a specific Church that was opposed to having the women as a pastor that was appointed to them by the conference. Within a few months of her ministry to them they changed there collective minds and now are very supportive of her and women in ministry in general. One of the members most opposed actually mentioned the story of Gamaliel in Acts 5 as instructive to him and instrumental in his change of heart and mind on the matter. I know the this woman pastor. She is indeed capable and deserves the confidence in her ministry that they now have in her. Hard to find a better pastor.

Haven't read this thread, only the title. But I believe we don't NEED a mediator! Our heavenly Father God loves us just as much as Jesus does! I think EGW's comment which is quoted in this heading came from a time in her life when she hadn't yet reached the understanding about the loving heavenly Father's tenderness toward all His created children; she felt the forensic type of doctrine, in which sinners need to have a mediator "in the court of an angry God." That is not the case! And EGW changed her mind on that topic, too, after her sojourn in Australia, where she wrote some of her most well-loved books, including DESIRE OF AGES. Sorry I don't have the references handy. But I know, and fully believe, that God the Father loves us just as much as Jesus does. Jesus said He came to this earth to show us the Father. And if we can identify with Jesus, and trust Him to love us fully, then we must also know that He came and revealed to us His heavenly Father, God the Father. The idea of an angry God comes from Satan. He is the one who developed the false doctrine of hell, with an ever-burning fire. I do not believe in an everlasting fire, and I don't believe in an angry God. Those are false doctrines, IMHO. Satan is doing his best to wean us away from God's love. I don't intend to let him take over my mind.

Thousands of Muslims, all over the world, are turning to Jesus as the Divine Son of God. They risk death in so doing. When did we Westerners risk death, in turning to Jesus as our LORD and Savior? To believe that GOD had a son, is anathema to a Muslim. Much less a Trinity of three divine beings. Muslims believe that Jesus will return as a prophet, who will turn the world to Islam - by force. So their Jesus is our Antichrist. Jews are considered by Muslims, to be lower than pigs. Jews do not eat pork. Jews actually do worship only ONE divine being. Jews do not bow down to idols. Those practices do NOT make them acceptable to Muslims. Thousands of Muslims are becoming weary of the violence, and the cruelty. ISIS has revealed, to this modern age - the true nature of ISLAM. ISIS is actually causing thousands to turn from that religion of violence. I personally support "The Jesus Film Project". This is a film based entirely upon the Gospel of Luke. It follows Scripture very accurately. All dialog is from Luke's Gospel. The film has been translated into some 800+ languages and dialects. Digital copies of that film, have penetrated into Muslim areas more deeply than any other Christian outreach. You can watch the video for free at the website.

Unfortunately, the incorrect Roman church position that a man is the vicar of Christ appears to be the one that headship theology advocates are trying to bring into the SDA Church with their opening wedge that only a man can be Christ's representative as an ordained minister. Some trash has entered the church since 1844 and it's still trying to enter today. Would Satan try to corrupt all the churches except ours? "The message of the fall of Babylon, as given by the second angel, is repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the churches since 1844. The work of this angel comes in at the right time to join in the last great work of the third angel's message as it swells to a loud cry. And the people of God are thus prepared to stand in the hour of temptation, which they are soon to meet. I saw a great light resting upon them, and they united to fearlessly proclaim the third angel's message." {EW 277.1}

Rachel, read my "thought for today" post in the Church Policies section. EGW Was not give to be used to decide doctrine, but read the quote.

I've learned one's spiritual maturity is partially revealed when basking in the Truth as they reveal it, while allowing others to express themselves freely without becoming 'unhinged' if they don't agree. It's the Holy Spirit's responsibility to convict the heart, not the decibels our voice pitch reaches. God is Love! Jesus saves!

Thank you Gregory. I just want to find what is true. I seriously doubt Ellen White, therefore I do not give any consideration to writings published under her name. I want to understand what the Bible says. Jackson, Because you believe something to be true, does not make it so. The same applies to me. I want to see where the weight of the evidence falls.

In my experience with Rachel, I find that she has spent much time in study to reach he conclusions. Coming from that time spent in study, I find her to have a commitment to what she believes to be Biblical doctrine. But, I reject any suggestion that she studies Scripture just to find how it supports her view. I believe that she is open to the discovery of Biblical truth, wherever it may lead. She and I do disagree on some points. But, this is just part of our human condition. No human has a full and complete understanding of truth. She is welcome to come here and participate in our discussions.

So sorry you are in pain Barbara. I looked the condition up on Medline, a health database, and the place that seems to have the best published success with surgery on it in the US is the Cleveland Clinic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24358999 They use minimally invasive surgery. If your Dr. is not sure how much the surgery he plans on doing will help, maybe it would be good to contact them for a second opinion. The Cleveland Clinic is one of the top facilities in the U.S for specialized treatment.

William Miller applied the seals, the trumpets and the plagues to events over history. While Mrs. White made a comment about Josiah Litch's prophecy which many Adventists latch on to; Mrs. White does no more than mention in passing about a dramatic fulfillment, but beyond something happening to help bring credibility to the Millerite movement, she does not go any farther. But on the other hand Mrs. White differs from Miller in that she does not apply the plagues to over history, but to the very end of time. But in that application she says: Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded; vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Ellen G. White, Selected Messages (Washington DC: Review and Herald Publishing Assoc, 1958), 3:426 People try to make arguments to say that this does not mean more than using trumpets in a general way and want to defend the tradition. However, Elder James White was not happy with Uriah Smith going with the traditional application in Daniel and Revelation (and he wrote D and R before Mrs. White wrote much of the Great Controversy so he did not have the advantages of her later writings at the time. And he lamented that there was so much more to learn about Daniel and Revelation than he had a chance to learn.) and in the literary structure of Revelation the trumpets sound AT the opening of the 7th seal which are the closing events of earth's history. In Elder Kenneth Strand's Chiasm of Revelation connects the trumpets to the plagues. Now in his writing he has placed an artificial line in the middle calling it the historical half and future half. I asked him about it and he told me that there were people in power that demanded that he make it support the traditional view or to find a new job and that was his solution to that problem. As I had it presented in Revelation class at AUC the trumpets are the events pressuring people to make their final decision leading to the close of probation and the plagues are the results of probation having closed and God turns us over to our choice and the vial's of God's wrath are poured into the ground so that God's wrath is no longer holding sin in check. I have not looked too closely at this but I once read an interesting comment in a Bible Commentary. I believe it was the Anchor Bible Commentary; however the author pointed out that when the High Priest would leave the sanctuary at the close of the day of atonement ministry that 7 trumpets would sound. The Bible talks about many antichrists. The Flavian Emperors sound very much like Daniel 7. There were 10 Roman Emperors, they plucked up 3 to come into power, and Titus destroyed the temple and his brother Dominatian was the one who sent John to Patmos. The Papacy was the antichrist during the 5th head. However the last antichrist will be very supportive of "Christianity" but of a sticky sweet generic Christianity that Satan is currently herding the church into. Islam will also be herded into this. It will look like a wonderful time for Christians so that if it was possible it would deceive the very elect. Pray tell me what part of Fundamentalist Islam could deceive the very elect?