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Two of my friends posted this separately on Facebook tonight and I thought it was food for thought given the present situation. "We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. The church may pass resolution upon resolution to put down all disagreement of opinions, but we cannot force the mind and will, and thus root out disagreement. These resolutions may conceal the discord, but they cannot quench it and establish perfect agreement. Nothing can perfect unity in the church but the spirit of Christlike forbearance. Satan can sow discord; Christ alone can harmonize the disagreeing elements. Then let every soul sit down in Christ's school and learn of Christ, who declares Himself to be meek and lowly of heart. Christ says that if we learn of Him, worries will cease and we shall find rest to our souls." (Ellen G. White, Manuscript Release, 11, 266).

I've have two friends at work, one an atheist; the other an agnostic. The atheist states that science has proved there's no God. The agnostic is open to the idea, but needs proof of his existence. About a week ago the Pope came up (I think it was about him teaming with the US government to oppose slavery throughout the world). He knows my views on the Papacy; so I said to him, you know how you need proof of the supernatural, i.e., God? He didn't make a comment. I continued: According to Bible prophecy no one will question the supernatural because the anti-Christ will perform undeniable miracles (see 2 Thess 2:9), even bringing fire down from heaven in the sight of men (see Rev 13:13). I said there will be no denying of the supernatural. The only problem is this "god" (see 2 Thess 2:4) is not the God I speak of, but rather backed by "the god of this world". Well, he said, I'll kill myself if that happens. And I replied, why? As long as you sanction this power then you can keep your bank account (he & his wife have plenty in stocks, etc.). Only those who oppose this miracle working god will not be able to "buy or sell" (see Rev 13:17). Yes, atheists & agnostics might remain so even in foxholes, but not when the anti-Christ appears.

I think a big problem with much of the historical interpretation of Revelation is that it's mainly eisegesis... To be honest I haven't found a single passage in Revelation that I've been able to apply to Islam. I don't believe the Revelation speaks about Islam in particular. Those who today speak the loudest about Islam are the same people that used to insist that the prophecies had a lot to say about the Soviet union.

I think we have to be very careful, and understand the way the devil works with our minds... We are all talking about owning a gun and thinking the we are mature enough to handle a gun or any kind of weapon... Many smart people (not IDIOTS), that owned a gun have made stupid decisions in a dark moment of his life... This has nothing to do with IDIOTS or SMART people... This issue has to do more with the great controversy war that is taking place... most of our battles are inside us... we are born selfish and the only think that we like to do is to look excuses to satisfy our selfish desires. The devil has been very smart to make us rationalized many things and this is one of them... We call that protection... We used parts of the Bible to justify our actions... we are always looking at the passages that we think prove our point. We talk about Moses, David, The Israelites... we have to recreate the environment of all those situations to understand what was happening... It was never God's plan for Israel to go and attack their enemies(Exodus 23:20-33). It was the stiffness of their heart that God allowed their methods... If Israel followed God instructions, they didn't nbeed to become like the heathen nations, but we like to look like them... we have to protect ourselves. David wanted to build the temple to the Lord, what did God said?, No, he can not build me a temple, he shed too much blood. If we want to look examples in the Bible, why don't we go to the life of Jesus. How did he react when people came to arrest him? what did he say to peter after he cut the ear of one of their enemies. If we want to follow the Bible let's look at Jesus the cleares representation of God (Heb 1:1-3) We have to understand how the devil deceives in the false sense of security that we are not going to do anything foolish. It's better to avoid the temptation when our tempter are not controlled... God Bless you all Elmer latorre

Philip Wesley Comfort. THE ORIGIN OF THE BIBLE, Tyndale House, 1992 & 2003, 352 pages. This book, I consider to be one of the most important books that one can study about the background of the Bible. It was written by some 13 different people. Included among the authors are F. F. Bruce, Carl F. H. Henry, J. L. Packer and others. It is divided into five (5) sections: The Authority & Inspiration of the Bible The Canon of the Bible The Bible as a Literary Text Bible Texts & Manuscripts Bible Translation. Each section has several authors. It can be purchased today for about $13 and as a Kindle edition for$10. I highly recommend it for anyone who wants to learn more about the background of the Bible. It is written in a manner that it is of value to people who are not highly trained scholars.

...or can be claimed to be on flimsy evidence, their crime is attributed to the whole religion. When they are racist or misogynist or Christian, their crime is attributed to them as individuals. It's a double standard and is the epitome of prejudice and stereotyping. The real explanation, in both cases, is no doubt a combination of individual psychopathology and ideology.

100 Years Ago Today: Ellen G. White’s Funeral July 24, 2015 Adventism, Blog Rachel Cabose 0 Comments Share It : facebook twitter google+ email When Ellen White died in July 1915, three funerals and a graveside service memorialized her life of ministry. An estimated 5,400 people attended these services. The first funeral was held July 18 on the lawn at her home in California, known as Elmshaven. A second was held the next day in Oakland, California. The third and largest service was held on Sabbath, July 24, in Battle Creek, Michigan, where Ellen White had lived for many years and where she was to be buried beside her husband, James. F.M. Wilcox, editor of the Review and Herald, described the service, which occurred during the morning worship hour: Friends were given opportunity at the Tabernacle [the Battle Creek Seventh-day Adventist Church], from eight o’clock until half past ten Sabbath morning, to look upon the familiar face. Six ministers acted as guards of honor at the Tabernacle, alternating in pairs every twenty minutes, one standing at the head and one at the foot of the casket. [See top photo] … The body reposed in a plain black casket, without ornamentation, except a simple plate engraved with the words “At rest.” The casket was placed directly in front of the pulpit, which was banked with a rich profusion of palms, ferns, and flowers. The floral tributes were numerous and beautiful. One design of an open Bible, made of white and pink carnations, presented by the Pacific Press Publishing Association, was especially noticeable. Across the open pages in purple flowers were the words, “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me.” [See photo of grave below.] … A cross of white roses [at left in photo below] hung in front of the pulpit. On a ribbon attached to this cross were the last words uttered by Sister White, “I know in whom I have believed.” … The service in the Tabernacle was attended by a large congregation. It is estimated that four thousand persons were present, crowding the Tabernacle to its very doors. Many stood in the lobbies, doorways, and approaches to the building, unable to obtain seats. According to Wilcox, many of the nearby Adventist churches cancelled their Sabbath services so the members and pastors could attend. General Conference officials and many of Battle Creek’s “leading citizens” were present, along with representatives from Adventist churches throughout Michigan, Illinois, and Indiana. Testimonies of a Life Well Lived General Conference President A.G. Daniells presented a detailed overview of Mrs. White’s life. He told of how she had received the gift of prophecy at age 17 and had been granted “a series of remarkable spiritual experiences, unmistakably genuine.” He testified: “Those who have been associated with her through all the years that have passed since that time never have had occasion to alter their conviction that the revelations which have come to her through the years have come from God.” Daniells outlined key themes in White’s ministry that bore witness to the Spirit that inspired her, noting that she upheld the Bible as God’s inspired Word and Jesus Christ as Savior. He also noted her emphasis on mission and her “broad, progressive views” about the “betterment and uplift of the human family from the moral, the intellectual, the physical, and the social standpoint, as well as the spiritual.” “She has touched humanity at every vital point of need, and lifted it to a higher level,” Daniells said. The funeral sermon was offered by Stephen Haskell, an Adventist evangelist whose friendship with Ellen White ran so deep that, after both of their spouses had died, he proposed marriage to her! (Ellen White did not accept his offer, but suggested another woman, whom Haskell later married.) Haskell found comfort in the text that immediately follows the three angels’ messages that Ellen White had proclaimed so fervently: “Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth” (Rev. 14:13, KJV). He said: We have no question in reference to the faithfulness of our dear sister. She has been faithful and true as far as lay in her power to accomplish the work that God gave her to do. … She has met the foe, Death; she has surrendered; but her works live. Being dead, she speaks and will speak as long as souls can be saved in this world. A Faithful Servant Laid to Rest After the service, Wilcox wrote, “the body was removed to the vestibule of the church,” where “the large congregation in single column slowly filed by the casket.” Then pallbearers, Wilcox among them, carried the casket to a waiting carriage. The procession to the cemetery was a large one. More than one hundred vehicles of various kinds, automobiles and carriages, were in line. Nine street cars, chartered for the occasion and loaded to the fullest capacity, accommodated those not possessing carriage conveniences. The somber-hued, overcast sky harmonized with the solemn occasion. Rain at one time threatened. … The hundreds gathered around the open grave stood with bowed heads and sorrow-filled hearts, recognizing the great loss to the church of God, and their own personal loss, in the death of this noble, devout woman. Mourners at Ellen White’s graveside service Assessing her legacy, Wilcox spoke highly of White’s Christian example but cautioned against deifying the prophet: Her own humble, God-fearing life, her simplicity of character, her dignity of womanhood, were models of Christian character. But in saying this we would not unduly exalt the human; for our beloved sister was only human after all—a fallible mortal woman striving by God’s grace to overcome the evil tendencies which existed in her heart, and which exist in the heart of every human being. He noted that while White’s personal involvement and her prophetic gift had contributed greatly to the development of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, “this movement is not dependent upon any of its human founders for continuance,” but on God’s power. Wilcox expressed a fitting sentiment for this centennial of Ellen White’s death: “We hope that our church’s appreciation of the gift of the spirit of prophecy will not be voiced alone in words, but above all in following the instructions that have been given.” ______ Note: Quotations in this article are from a booklet called “In Memoriam, Mrs. E. G. White, 1827-1915,” which was reprinted with slight changes from the Review and Herald, July 29 and August 5, 1915. Thanks to Compass Magazine board member Steve Dunson for providing a copy of this document. Photos are from The Ellen G. White Estate. Share It : facebook twitter google+ email Tags: Adventist History, Ellen White, Gift of Prophecy About the author Rachel Cabose Rachel Cabose is managing editor of The Compass Magazine and a freelance writer. She spent 10 years as associate editor of Guide magazine at the Review and Herald Publishing Association. Rachel and her husband, Greg, live in Michigan. 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On a personal note, I liked this. See how happy one can be when they know there not objects of somebodies table delicacy. God is Love! Jesus saves!

Exactly, great post

Gotta love a physics analogy! It's very old, so it describes very old versions of the two platforms, but Stan's comment made me think of a very short article by Umberto Eco, from 1994 (21 years ago), that compares the Mac and DOS (the Microsoft system before Windows). He claims Mac is Catholic and DOS is Protestant, which is the opposite of what Stan suggested. This is the no-quote, no-link zone so you'll have to google it yourself. In relation to the OP, I think of it in relation to parenting: it seems to me that some just reproduce what their parents did. Maybe that's Newton's First Law: an object stays stationary or continues in a straight line unless acted on by an external force. Others parent in reaction to the way they were parented: if their parents were strict they're very laissez-faire, or vice versa. That's the Third Law approach the OP talks about. Surely the best approach (and unfortunately for the beauty of the analogy, it doesn't really correspond to the Second Law!), is to consider how we were parented, continue the good bits and change the bad bits. Not simple, mindless reaction, but thoughtfulness. Applying the ideas to other contexts I leave as an exercise for the reader.

“Too many people overvalue what they are not and undervalue what they are.” - Malcolm Forbes

One reason I do not eat pork is because it keeps me "in check" with God. It's sort of a thing I do to remind myself that this body is a gift and it's not going to be around forever. It's something God gave me to use while I'm hanging around on this planet and I'm trying to take care of it according to the User's Manual.

“Had I cared for the comments of people, I should never have been a missionary.” - C.T. Studd

That must have been a crazy experience!

As much as I know I've seen those kind of relationships and as much as I don't like to imagine an area where work discrimination is potentially reasonable... I think your last comment is the very point that Lauralea is trying to make. The appearance of there being nothing wrong with two people of the same sex in a marriage is quite confusing. Its currently a modern day hot issue that most people are either misled about or undecided on. It could cause complications in the area of ministry to have to work along side someone who seeks to pluck seeds out of the ground after someone else has been toiling to sow them. This is something I will have to pray and educate myself on, but Lauralea's point is not a void one.

Introduction: Some of the discussion here in Club Adventist has focused on Ellen g. White and the role that she has played in the SDA Church. This has stimulated my thinking and I have decided to put into print some of my ideas. These ideas are my personal thoughts and I do not suggest that they should be imposed on others. In putting these into print, I could reference them with citations from Scripture and from the writings of EGW. But, that would increase the time that is required for me to do this and probably is not needed. So, I will not do that. Prophet: In modern times we commonly think of a prophet as one who knows what is going to happen in the future and communicates that to others. In my understanding, that is not the basic role that is described in the Bible. Yes, Biblical prophets did at times describe future events. The Biblical books of Daniel and Revelation are two examples of this. However, in my understanding, the central, Biblical role of a prophet was to speak God’s message to others. It is in this sense that the writers of the Biblical books may be called prophets. Ellen White clearly did not take on for herself the title of “prophet.” In my understanding, that was because she rejected the common understanding of her day as to the role of a prophet being that of telling others what was going to happen in the future. She called herself a “messenger.” This is in line with the Biblical view of speaking God’s message, whatever that might be. Administrative guidance: In my view, the major role that EGW played in the SDA Church was that of giving administrative guidance. We were a developing denomination. I believe that God used EGW to guide us in the direction that we developed. Ellen White guided our development in three major ways—health, publishing and education. Without her guidance, I do not believe that we would have become what we are as a denomination today in those three major areas. She also played a role in other areas, for example missions. However, I see her has having a lessor role than she had in the three that I have listed above. I believe that we would have developed a mission emphasis without her. She also gave administrative counsel to individuals. Some was personal in nature. Some related to administrative issues that the developing denomination faced. Some amounted to reproof of sin. In short, to me her role in administrative guidance to this developing denomination is the largest focus of her ministry and her role as a prophet. We would not be the denomination that we area today if it had not been for her ministry and the manner in which God used her. Biblical doctrine: In my comments here I will reference the foundational doctrines of our Church. These were formulated in the so-called “Sabbath Conferences.” At these conferences denominational leaders determined what were the central, core beliefs of the developing denomination. Ellen White actually played a very small role in these conferences. These meetings focused on the Bible, not the writings of EGW. These were an effort to determine what the Bible taught. During the discussions, EGW became convicted on the basis of the Biblical teachings. She was not the source of those teachings. Other teachings: Ellen White did play a role in the development of teachings that were not considered to be part of the Central focus of this denomination. She spoke and wrote about healthful living, diet, dress, medical care and much more. Theses teachings are not considered to be requirements for membership by the majority of the SDA denomination. We do not require that people eat a vegetarian diet. We do not disfellowship people who drink coffee, rather we serve it in many of our churches. Certainly, EGW was the source for much in this a rea. That cannot be denied. But, it is the Biblical teachings that are considered foundational to the SDA denomination and its message. Teachings that go beyond the plain word of the Bible are not considered to be at the core of SDA belief. Summation: God used Ellen White to guide us as a developing denomination in the early days of our Church. But, she was not to be used as a source for our foundational doctrines. Our doctrines were to be judged by the Bible and founded upon the Bible. Two extremes exist within the SDA Church in regard to Ellen White. On the one end of the spectrum are those who dismiss her and think that she has little relevance to SDAs today. These people fail to understand the role that God gave her to guide us as a developing denomination. At the other end of the spectrum are those who base their doctrinal beliefs on what she has written. The either elevate her writings to a canonical status equal to that of the Bible, or to that above the Bible. Both extremes are wrong.

I think there are a lot of questions implied here. I do not think it is helping people who are gay to say they just see it differently because it is a salvational issue. I do not treat people harshly whether gay or otherwise but they know where I stand, often not by saying anything. I have a friend who is a recovering heroin addict and a former witch who has turned to me repeatedly for help. She knows I care and do not judge her, but I do not approve of her continuing to use heroin. I help her when she tries to get off and did not judge her when her ex boyfriend overdosed- she started him on heroin- and almost died and she turned to me for prayer. At the same time, I do not encourage her to continue to live the lifestyle. And she knows this. I have had friends who are gay now, whose orientation is changing, and who have changed their behavior so they are now in heterosexual marriage. I think we should be loving and supportive of people in the process, but not be forever mute that we see the process as unnecessary. In terms of who we employ in our facilities, in an ideal situation it would be those with decision making similarity about salvational issues because they can most effectively help others. I understand we should love and care for people where they are and yet while Jesus did this he bade them to follow him and told the woman caught in adultery to go and sin no more. Many believe this to have been Mary Magdalene, who later became one of his closest followers. She followed Jesus, and sometimes lapsed, but at least she was making efforts to leave the lifestyle and praying to him for forgiveness when she fell. She was not openly and flagrantly continuing in prostitution while she served him. Same with Rahab. I think it is more loving to let people know the truth than to just act like it does not matter. Subtly. In the right time and way.

OK Tom, I recently left bedside nursing after over thirty years of taking care of neurosurgical intensive care patients. I am a Certified Neuroscience Registered Nurse (CNRN). I also have a Masters degree in Nursing. While I posted images off of Bing, I have seen these images before in the MRI scanner rooms before the physicians got to see them when I took patient to MRIs. I have taken care of several cystercerosis patients thru my years of ICU nursing. I suspicion I ... MIGHT ... have a clue ... what I am talking about.

I starting to see your point.

I think sometimes you can be over impressed with snopes. If I did not have a good reason to post those pictures, I would not have. And they are not X-rays, they are MRIs, which shows how much you know!

What in the world???????????

Considering your well thought out ideas of firearms for personal use I would suggest, depending upon the gender, circumstance and location, a tazer might be be the best option. As for myself, my first question to answer for myself is WWJD. God is Love! Jesus saves!

I am not disputing that. It is sort of like mothers telling their children to not cross their eyes because they will get stuck that way. Not true of course. So once the kid figures that out, what else is untrue in what mother said? Using false information to convince someone that pork products are not good to eat is counter productive and undermines other more important messages we might have. It destroys our credibility.

Certainly it is a process. I am sure there could be many difficult decisions, but if someone is set and determined to live a non Biblical lifestyle, not struggling but totally given in to flagrant practice, they cannot be the kind of influence for good I would hope for. Same with someone who is married with one person and openly and flagrantly living in adultery with someone else. Or someone who is a drug addict, a Satanist, or an embezzler or a bigamist.

There's definitely a problem with pork! God tells us not to eat it, and that's good enough for me.

Pam, Keep your 'dragons' handy and hungry!

Refusing to do right seems to really be doing something wrong.

I see 2 problems in reaching these people: 1. They seem to live at a primitive level of not having radios. Their most advanced level of technology is metal arrowheads made from washed up metal. Their distrust of outsiders may make them destroy any outside radios on arrival. 2. Someone would have to survive there long enough to win their trust and learn their language. I suspect it will be unlike any other language. Not to be too pessimistic as God has his ways of getting to anyone. I believe that part of the end time evagelism will be done by God and the angels and these people may have to be one of his "special projects."

A. Leroy Moore. ADVENTIST CULTURES IN CONFLICT: PRINCIPLES OF RECONCILIATION. Moore publishing. 2009, 158 pages. NOTE: This book is for sale on Amazon and other web sites. It price generally ranges from $18 to less than half of that. Moore has served as a pastor (Alaska, Texico, Upper Columbia and New England), He has taught at Solusi, Walla Walla, Columbia Union College and Weimar. He has been director of La Vida Mission and president of LaVoy Missionary College in Canada. This book includes some concepts previously published in Adventist cultures in Conflict. I am in the beginning phase of reading this book. It is stimulating. In short he suggests that truth has two opposite poles and divided Adventists tend to cluster around one of the poles to the neglect of the other and both poles are needed for a full understanding of the doctrinal message. If you chose to purchase it, you will be challenged in ways that you do not expect. Here is one comment by him: NOTE: He does not advocate compromise. The critical words to understand how he defines them are: paradoxical and dialectical.

Nasty looking bugs for sure.

Yes I totally agree we should preach to those who are gay, and I have a friend I pray for often who is a young gay man, as well as another friend who no longer practices the lifestyle.

Certainly our hospitals should be missionary endeavours and instruments aiding us in bringing people to Christ. For that we do need fully devoted individuals, but who is fully devoted and who is fully qualified?

Good advice. Some doctors and hospitals are better than others.

A major work of The Andrews University Press (AUP) is a four (4) vol. set on Systematic Theology, written by Norman Gully of Southern Adventist University. Three vol. have been published and the 4th is in process. Vol. 1, Prolegomena: Is an 810 page introduction to systematic theology It is divided into 15 different chapters which begin with major philosophers and scientists, a view of Scripture, postmodern worldview and various schools of hermeneutics. Vo. 2, God as Trinity: Is a 666 page book on the doctrine of the Trinity. It contains 16 chapters. Vol. 3, Creation, Christ & Salvation: Is a 871 page book which contains some 17 chapters. Vol. 4, The Church and the Last Things: Is a book that is in process and has not yet been published. For those interested in study in depth, the above books may be of interest.

Andrews University Press (AUP): AUP has become an academic publisher of some 80 titles. I publishes in the area of, biblical & theological studies, Adventist studies, science, faith, educational philosophy, psychology and biblical archaeology. Some of its publications are likely to be of interest to a very narrow group of people. E.G. Its 10 books on the archaeology of Hesban Other books will be of more general interest: E.G. MEMOIRS OF WILLIAM MILLER; THE GENESIS CREATION ACCOUNT AND ITS REVERBERATIONS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT--10 authors; I USED TO BE PERFECT. The listing of AUP titles runs to some 34 pages. More information can be obtained from : universitypress.andrews.edu or 800-467-6369.

There have been times that I protect VIP from those who felt they wanted to give them hours of unsolicited advice.. Kind of an unarmed body guard ,, Sometimes we need to protect leaders from our own people.

It is a matter of freedom. I discussed this question with a Lutheran parson the other day. We have the freedom to refuse performing the marriage of a gay couple, even if our own ishop or conference president should ever encourage us to do it. But does that preclude a gay person from entering a worship service in our church? Why should we refuse to preach the gospel to a gay person? Have we ever refused to preach the gospel to a thief, an adulterer or a liar? Did Jesus come to save sinners?

I can't blame either the Republicans or the Democrats for Donald Trump. I do think that his latest about John McCain eliminates him as a potential successful candidate for President.. I think that he will be rejected by both Republicans and Democrats.

Traveling at the speed of light, it takes the electronic signal 4.5 hours to send a photo of Pluto to Earth. Check this out: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jul/14/nasas-new-horizons-probe-makes-pluto-flyby-nine-years-after-leaving-earth

Is there a difference between owning a gun and paying someone else to protect you with a gun as the case is with the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists?

JoeMo, your last paragraph is quite telling. This global economic state is coming from American corporations and rather than Islam conquering us, they too will have to submit to the growing economic pressures. It is this economic system that is the 7th head. It is different from the others that it does not get power from the sward but from people joining for the peace and economic advantages of joining.

This isn't about me, Catherine...It's about a young internet adventist who hasn't posted here of late since your comment. You would not have had me on your case if it hadn't come accros as an elder who was 'talking down' to a younger person. Make it right, Catherine and I will be off your case.... And that goes for the rest of the people on this forum who insulted Cosmin. Come on, guys and gals. You don't bait someone by asking him is opinion and then when he does give it, you tell him he's being judgemental. It just ain't right.

"instructed"...no, asked about weapons...yes...Context shows no intent to use it.. What's your problem with your faith? If you rely on a gun, you are faithless in those situations where you are to be harmed. I suggest a rereading of Fox's Book of Martyrs and understand what those people went thru. And they had the weapons.....we call it prayer, kindness, compassion...

I think it's clear to Seventh-day Adventists that God doesn't want us to pick up weapons to defend ourselves when we're persecuted for being Christians. It seems to me there's a big difference between that situation and defending your wife and children against a common criminal who breaks into your home. If someone chooses not to own a gun, that's fine, but people on either side of the issue ought not to make it sound like those who disagree with them are not doing God's will. Neither the Bible nor the Spirit of prophecy prohibit gun ownership. In Mexico it's against the law for anyone but the police to carry weapons, and as a consequence, only the criminals and the police can protect themselves, and the law-abiding citizens are helpless to defend themselves against the gangs and the corrupt police, both of whom steal vehicles and murder innocent people in broad daylight. It's common in Mexico for the police not to even investigate murders. Neither the gangs nor the police are afraid of the people because they know the people are unarmed. I think history shows governments that prohibit their people from bearing arms are unafraid of their citizens and therefore have no respect for them. I believe it's a good thing that the United States' constitution guarantees its private citizens the right to own weapons. Our Founding Fathers were perceptive students of history and human psychology.

"It's a personal decision" is the best response. My take is this: I am a former US Army Special Forces (Green Beret) trained in medicine. I also know how to use most weapons. I was in a deep discussion with a friend a few weeks ago about guns. When you have a gun, you always think about that gun. You bring it out of the car, carry it on your person, you always are thinking about that gun. When you come home and eat dinner, you put your gun in its place. When you go to bed, the gun is in its place. For me, that's too much thinking about an object. I have enough to think about with my cell phone, keys, wallet, checkbook, etc. Adding a gun to that is more than I want on my mind. And don't even think about what goes through your mind if the gun is missing. My friend said that he lived in Jamaica and twice he was confronted by men with guns, and he was able to talk his way out of the situations. He probably wouldn't have done than if he had a gun in his pocket. Then what happens if they're just a little bit faster? My $0.02

Interesting thread Alex. I think that it is not wrong to own a gun. It is probably not a bad thing to even know how to use one. I think there's a fine line as for me owning one. Today it would be no problem. As for years ago I don't think so. Like Richard mention a gun in the hands of an idiot is a very dangerous think. As even your other post Alex that you mentioned about the shootout. Obviously this person either never had someone teach him the good and bad about a gun, or the influence's in his life were not like those that Richard had or others with a real sense of what guns can do. And how many have shot themselves or someone close to them because the person that actually owned the gun didn't have the brain to be a little more responsible themselves. I personally have never owned a gun and probably never will. Me and my family put our lives in Gods hands. But that doesn't mean that if I get into a situation that does require me to protect my family that I wont grab the first thing that I can get my hands on. But will probably pray first, and give God first crack at. As a matter of fact I've found myself in a number of sticky situations in the past. I'll give an example: I was driving my car home one afternoon from downtown manhattan. And some guy cut me of and pointed to me to pull over. So me being upset pulled over and jumped out of my car to confront this guy. Well he stepped out of his car with about 4 other guys. Me not thinking yet about what I was getting myself into, starting asking these guys, in a very loud voice, what they wanted. They took a look at my car and they said to me, they just wanted to take a better look at it, because it was the nicest camaro they had ever seen. Than they all got into there car, not sure what kind, my adreniline (sp) still pretty high and I couldn't really see right. I got back into my car and sat there wondering what just happen. I thought to myself what did these guy's really want and why did they leave in such a hurry. When I finally settled down and realized what just went down I started to shake a little. And thanked God for helping me. I didn't even pray when I jumped out of my car. I finally also realized that they must have seen something in my car when they got out of there's that had to make them basicly turn around and leave. I think that they saw 4 angels, which they probably miss took for I don't now what, sitting in my car. I've had other situations like this but I figure this is enough for me to know that God does watch over me. But like I said if he choose's not too one of these times, so be it, I'll still put my life in his hands. pk

I personally don't want a gun. I know that if I had one I would probably end up accidentally shooting myself, and that would be rather uncomfortable. I also wouldn't want to accidentally kill someone in self-defense. But I don't think it's wrong to own a gun. I just don't want to own one, touch one, or be near one.