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when I left the church, I *loved* those "anti-SDA" websites that were comprised of bitter ex-SDA's... They'd whine and complain and point fingers, and I'd join in the "Hallelujah, I'm not a hypocrite" chorus. Then, for a long time, I didn't even bother with those groups... until I got a rude awakening during my witchcraft years. Then I went back to those former SDA forums, particularly the FAF, in an effort to try and figure out what spiritual path to take — back to the comfortable position of pointing fingers at Adventists. It occurred to me, while reading about all the bad, horrible things that SDAs had [subjectively] done to the various members, and reading the "Egg White" comments, that perhaps not all was as it was being cracked up to be. Though there had definitely been obnoxious people in the church who I had detested (and the feeling was probably mutual), and though EGW had been hammered at me ad nauseum, I suddenly realized I was painting the SDA Church with a very broad, very critical brush. While I most definitely had been spiritually abused by some SDA preachers, not everyone was like that. New personal friends came on the scene, including Mike Jones, Lonnie Melashenko, and others, whose opinions I valued because, not only were they were not stupid people, they didn't put on some sort of religious phony persona... they really did walk their talk. And then I joined C/A, as well, and found that, indeed I was right....there are so many different "flavors" of Adventists, just as in any other denomination. And, really, it would be terribly boring if everyone "sang the same note"....

I realize that. Believe it or not, I've had my own experience at least once where I did not want to go back to church, but I did and am grateful that I never officially left the church, for my relationship with God is even stronger now than it had been before (though it was the church,not God, that I was so tempted to give up on). I'm thankful for kind and loving SDA neighbors who kept offering me a ride to church. I don't even want to know where I'd be if I had really left. I don't mean to say that all SDAs are so vindictive and vengeful, but it does seem that certain SDAs who go out of their way to make these sites even make up things and exaggerate and deny history itself in order to misrepresent Adventism and/or hurt the church and/or call others out of the church and/or justify their own leaving of the church.

I have too often thought that if we treated our animals, making them suffer, as much as we do our loved ones, someone might press charges against us. this is one of the toughest thing in life.

Would you ever consider hastening death? If you have a pet that has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve suffering? Similarly, if you have a loved one who has a painful, terminal condition, would you do anything to hasten death to relieve that person of suffering? For example, turn off a ventilator? Withhold nutrition? Give an overdose of medication? etc.

I am still puzzled at why some ex-SDA seem so vindictive after they have left the denomination. I would think that once they were gone they would be happier... Regarding passing out "other" literature- it is not surprising to see this clamped down upon. I have lived long enough to see movements come and go, each time and each one pulling out members with them. In one case I knew a family member of a Shepherd's Rod who related to me how a family friend, now a Conference president, rejected his boy because the boy was traveling around to Camp meetings trying to recruit sympathizers by showing them supposed errors of the church leadership. Spreading division and confusion doesn't accomplish much for Jesus. To me it seems like wasted energy.

I recently faced this situation with my mom. She had terminal cancer; and the chemotherapy and radiation - while delaying her death - was just prolonging her misery. My siblings and I got together to discuss it with her; and told her just that. She said that she didn't want to leave us alone. We told her that we would rather see her at peace and out of her misery than being on the verge of a slow and painful death; but we would support her in whatever she decided to do. She chose to quit the treatments and enter in-home hospice. Within 6 weeks she was on so much pain medication that she slept about 20 hour per day. When she was awake she was lucid and peaceful. She passed peacefully in her sleep with all of her kids there. I'm sure that the very drugs that gave her peace and freedom from pain also hastened her death. My deepest condolences on your wife's illness, Gerry. God bless you for being such a concerned caretaker.

Gerry, one has to make sure one does not have to suffer, in order to keep someone they love from not suffering...

Hard, hard decision. This is the stuff of life

Gerry, I'm really sorry about your wife. I can't imagine how I would feel if mine were in the same position. As to helping someone die, I can only say that suffering is far worse than death for both the sufferer and those who love that person. I truly believe we have a merciful God who understands out pain and takes all of our circumstances into account when we make our decisions. I watched my old man die slowly over a period a few years and even though he and I had no relationship between us it was hard to watch someone who had been very talented at a lot of things get to the point where he just couldn't think or do the things he'd always done. It drove him absolutely nuts not to have his full mental capacities and know it. I always thought it was a merciful thing when the last group of strokes and a heart attack put an end to his life. Would I "put someone to sleep" so to speak to save them from suffering anymore? I very well might as I've had to put down a pet or two that was closer to me than most people have ever been to keep them from extended suffering. I'm just thankful I've never been in your position up to this point in my life. Whatever you choose to do, you have my support and understanding.

We had the most wonderful and expert family physician when one of my dear ones was dying of inoperable cancer. The surgeons had said they could do nothing more, and had referred us to hospice. Our family doctor came on board and offered to take over the end-of-life care instead of hospice. He was absolutely wonderful, and the sick one had a peaceful last few weeks. His Rx was: discontinue IVs, nutrition and medication, and let the disease do its job. But he did prescribe a dose of Xanax every six hours [swallowed in a spoonful of applesauce], and 4 drops of morphine on the tongue every 4 hours. The ending was so peaceful I just hope that doctor is still available when it comes my time to go. There was no "hastening" of death, only allowing the cancer to take over. But without any suffering whatsoever for the dear patient. He first asked the patient his permission to discontinue the IVs, etc. It was peaceful for all concerned.

I have, many times, had animals put to sleep. They are ours to have dominion over and, although many may hate my doing this, by the time I have arrived at the decision to euthanize an animal, I am most always surprised by how far from healthy they have gotten (in spite of regular veterinary care). Sometimes animals deteriorate in such small increments that it is not clear to see how pitiful they truly are.... Once I take them to the vet for their very last time, I get to see them free of their home environment and it is striking to me why I hadn't done it sooner. We are blessed with a vet's office who knows us personally over the stretch of many years and many, many, many animals. We do what we can when we can, and I have always been told I was making the correct decision for the sake of the animal. Only once did I have a dog put down because she bit my son for the second time and, even then, they supported our decision. I could not bear to have the dog wound a person severely and I would never be able to forgive myself if the biting escalated further. People. Would I do anything? No, I would never personally over-medicate someone to death. There are times that docs order high doses when withdrawing care to ensure that the person has NO chance of suffering. My grandmother was made comfortable, but in doing so, the docs told my parents that it would hasten her death. She was NOT ever going to get better. She had internally decapitated (bones no longer connected in her neck) from rheumatoid arthritis and its treatment. She was in uncontrollable pain and to ease her eminent passing was not going to solve her baseline problems. It made sense to make her comfortable before the inevitable. I had to decide what treatments to allow and what treatments didn't make sense for my parents. They had long illnesses and we had to weigh what was helpful and what would cause unnecessary pain. My dad was in very poor health when they found something on his pancreas. We were not going to have them biopsy and remove tissue to see if it was cancerous. If it was cancer, he wouldn't have lived another three months. It was not worth it to put him through the trauma of diagnosis and treatment since he probably would have died in an ICU being poked and prodded to death. However, when he had fluid on his lungs, we did consent to a pulmonary tap so that the fluid would be removed and would offer immediate comfort. In the case of a painful, terminal condition, I would consider what the person had indicated that their wishes were.... although I would not assist in a suicide. I think quality of life matters. If the person can be treated with some success, treatment should only occur when it will help in my opinion. Putting people through extended, unhelpful treatments to extend life no matter the cost to the person, is not kind or loving. A ventilator for a short period of time might be deemed worth it if the person can recover and is willing. Removing a ventilator just to remove extraordinary measures that are propping up a person can be done with love. Consider that a person on a vent will have excretions suctioned out many times a day and it is uncomfortable for them. Removing a ventilator can be removing the false support of a failing body. It often occurs with medication to ensure that the person does not suffer. Often, they will quit drinking and eating when they no longer feel hungry. People lose their alertness as the body starts to shut down, which I see as a blessing. Forcing them to have a tube placed for feeding is another support that can extend life, but it may not affect the quality of the life extended. It is a personal choice in the best interests of the terminal patient. Letting nature take its course does not include, in my mind, forcing things upon the suffering just to continue life. At some point, you arrive at the place where you are not promoting life as much as you are prolonging death. Each situation is different and should be approached with much prayer. I always fall back to the saying: "Just because we can doesn't mean we should...... "

This NYTimes article, "The Sabbath" is a masterpiece. Dr. Sacks was a talented writer. And to learn about the Jewish method of Sabbath-keeping brings a sense of belonging to my observance of Sabbath as an Adventist. A beautiful piece.

------------------------------------the critics. Here is a comment from a viewer in answer to one of Doug Batchelor's sermons of preparing for our Lord's return. A simple layman's way of putting it would be to "turn around and walk in the opposite direction", sincerely regretful for past behaviors. God is Love! Jesus saves!

Riots, race riots are a part of american history. Up until 1960 it was whites directly causing all the problems. Perhaps their role is more clandestine or hidden now. There were several race riots in Chicago in 1919 or 1920s and onwards. Two or three such riots in Cincinnati. Anti draft riots by irish immigrants and others during the civil war. There was a race riot in Beaumont Texas, near where I grew up. I had relatives tell me about that one.The profitable black section of Tulsa Ok was air bombed, because whites did not like the prosperity of the blacks. That page in history has been hushed up. America has a violent an bloody history. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Besides, as I believe and have mentioned, this world is not going to be here for long. Even if the social problems of the inner city were magically solved, there would still be myriads of unsolvable problems, in finance, in the environment, in politics, in just about every way you can imagine, that spell the doom of this planet. The only real solution is the return of Jesus Christ. As adventists, and I say that loosely considering some of the off the wall opinions share in this forum, you should know all this.

8thdaypriest was proposing another day of atonement, but Sister White said a complete and perfect atonement had been done at the cross: And Sister White's position in the quote above is solidly Biblical.

Gerry, I am fairly new, so I don't know what you are going through with your wife or what her condition is now. I am so very sorry for the pain and heart-wrenching feelings you are having. I was an ICU nurse and I lost both of my parents after long, long illnesses but years apart. It is so very different when you are the one making the decisions for someone who means the world to you. One of the things that my husband did for each of my parents (after they lost consciousness) was to tell them that it was okay to go and that he would take care of me. In both cases, we were with them all day and came home only to receive a phone call that each had died after we left. I don't know what they were able to perceive for sure, but I know they respected and trusted my husband as if he were their own son and loved him wholeheartedly. I do hope that you have support from church, family, and friends there with you as you navigate your grief (and please visit here often to let others know how much they care for you). Pure exhaustion can overwhelm your mind, too. It gets to the point sometimes where you don't even know where to turn. Please don't ignore your own needs for fresh air, nutrition, sleep, and support/help during these days. Please continue to trust God to guide your every thought and decision even when your strength is gone. He has not and will never leave your side. Hospice was gracious and helped in so many ways to ensure my parent's comfort and I would highly recommend them from the experiences I have had with them. I will pray for you and for your dear wife, but I sense that I am only one of a multitude doing the same.

Letting nature take its course does not include, in my mind, forcing things upon the suffering just to continue life. At some point, you arrive at the place where you are not promoting life as much as you are prolonging death. Each situation is different and should be approached with much prayer. I always fall back to the saying: "Just because we can doesn't mean we should...... Such wise words Deaconess.

i have recently had to put down an almost 20 year old alpaca, so it has definately made me think. i have a knee replacement coming up sometime in the next 12 months, in Sydney- some 300klms away form home, so i have made the following call- that if i crash on the table, they are to keep me alive long enough for the family to come down and say goodbye, then to turn all life support off. I have also decided NOT to have any treatment if i should have cancer that is terminal. I cant have morphine without having an allergic reaction. I God wants to end suffering and pain- which will happen once Jesus comes again- why cannot we do it on earth, now- if that is the express wishes of the patient- who would have to be checked to make sure they havent been coerced into this decision. as much as the sanctity of life must be preserved, there comes a time when keeping someone alive is cruel and unusual punishment- which Christ surely does not want. He wants us to help relieve pain and suffering- surely this comes under that category???

My favorite part of our church service is the testimony time. Someone passes around a microphone to those who raise their hand and they tell of what has happened in their lives or the lives surrounding them that showed how God was working in their lives. I am disappointed every time they try to limit the time of it.... One was about the shooting at a college. One of our members had a young relative (or a friend's relative) who the shooter walked right past (like he wasn't even visible while he should have been the first to be seen) before the shooting began. People have such remarkable experiences showing how God is active and in time, just in time, all the time.

yes, I have, and I would again. ... we could have kept my father on life support, but we didn't... Hardest week of my life, but I'd do it again. (he wasn't on a vent...he could have been kept alive indefinitely with nutritional support)

i laughed out loud on this

Yes, some will never get there from here

Many years ago, Lee Marvin, Clint Eastwood, and Jean Seberg made a movie filmed in Eastern Oregon up in the Wallowa Mtns called "Paint Your Wagon". I was one of the extras in that movie. If memory serves me well, Clint Eastwood did the Moriah song. Unhappily for my mom and her more conservative SDA beliefs than mine, I was always into the whole film industry and film making. Even had more distant family members in the industry - one was a director, among his several roles, for Alfred Hitchcock. A stepfather was a personal assistant to Louie B Mayer of MGM. And Carole Lombard was a cousin by marriage to my Grandmother. My great-grandmother was a Lombard, her maiden name was Coleman. http://the.hitchcock.zone/wiki/Herbert_Coleman Herbert Coleman's book is somewhere in my long list of books to read!

The focus in that group is primarily spiritually and ministry-focused.

I am finding genuine friendship in the CA women's group, and great sharing by our deeply spiritual members. If any women are interested please message Gail.

There is one private women's group where serious prayer and study go on, no jokes of the type mentioned, no froufrou at all. No topics have been derailed that I know of and no gossip. Most of the members there suffer from chronic physical pain and have faced serious trials. The largest forum by far is the prayer room but the other ones are not discussion, per se, but Christian growth fora ie- Bearing Your cross and growing your spiritual life. These are topics that generally don't get a lot of time on the main board. There was a men's one that did not take off.

Hi Gay, I certainly hope and pray that your Elderly friend can get past his offense with the denomination and reinforce his relationship with God. I also pray that God give both of you peace in this matter. If some SDA's are to "good" to have your friend in fellowship, he should feel free to go elsewhere. Those in your church that have chased your friend away will have to answer to God. Relationship and fellowship with God and His Son is much more important than relationship to a denomination.

I suspect a fair bit of myth making underway... A lot that is being said is not based on reality, accurate facts or first hand objective eye witness to events on the ground. I think it quite reasonable to assume that very few, if any, posting here is on sight reporting or participating or living where these events are occurring. We are getting highly filter glimpses of scenes and sound bites for sensationalistic consumption perpetuated by the media and those with ulterior motives from all perspectives on the issues. And when that stuff get rehashed here with a healthy dose of hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric and attitude, this discussion is of no real value and does nothing to help. It just hardens exist get attitudes, opinions, etc. It is like many of the overheated discussions here on politics, other social controversies and religious topics. Overheated, exaggerated rhetoric generating far more heat than light with most participants just shout past each other with nobody really listening or truly communicating. It all does more harm than good. a starting point is to listen far more than speaking. And only speak of what one has real genuine experience and/or knowledge. Give the facts without embellishment exaggeration or use of inflammatory language.

Quote: I appreciate your concern here; but I also have a concern. There are some of us here (me for one) that consider ourselves practicing Adventists; but others consider us wolves in sheep's clothing. It's mostly because I question the infallability of EGW and certain SDA interpretations of prophecy. Yet, as I read them, I conform to all 28 pillars of faith. What constitutes a "practicing Adventist" - church attendance, sinlessness, doctrinal purity, all of the above? I'm a little sensitive to this; cuz a member of this forum called me out in public as a wolf in sheep's clothing a while back. It was a time of spiritual crisis for me and I needed professional help, which I recognized and so I got it. But, one aspect remained: What was I going to do about my relationship to the SDA Church That answer came to me when I determined that I would not allow others to define what it meant for me to be Seventh-day Adventist. Yes, the Church must have standards and the Church has just exercised it right to have standards, this week. But, beyond that, the Church is not a group of people who agree on every aspect of doctrine. It is not a group of people who have exactly the same life style. It does not mean that every person could live happily with every other person, in the same home. Each person will have to determine the boundaries that define the word "church" make their decision accordingly. No one can make that decision for another. I came out of my time of spiritual crisis with a personal decision and I remain a part of the Church, sometimes in spite of a few people here who would like to exclude me.