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Nuff Sed: The idea of ordination was that the person had enough experience to be considered proficient and an "Elder" who could guide others. There are the verses of mostly Paul that are taken out of their historical and literary context and read with and interpreted by a person's imagination. This have been understood as women not speaking etc. Some women speakers in other churches find that the men turn their chairs around when they speak. The same thought pattern appeals to a number of Adventists. Except that if they followed their "proof texts" to a tee they would have to reject Mrs. White. So they created an Adventist tap dance and interpret their proof texts as a woman can do everything that it looks like Paul says that they can't do just as long as they are not ordained. Paul was not talking about unordained women when he wrote those verses but only if we want to ordain them do those verses come into play. The Adventist church has indeed been ordaining women they just set up loopholes and theological summersaults so that they don't have the "O" word applied to them. To ordain women would actually make it easier for the church as we can be open and honest about what we are doing and have been doing right along for a number of years. However it would upset members who are trying to compromise between being a good conservative Christian (for some reason Adventist have a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists) and their approach to the key texts they use from Paul. All we have are inexperienced pastors and experienced pastors. The word "Ordination" was used to mean an experienced pastor, but in Norway they will no longer use the term due to the controversy and the Adventist tap dance to want to accept tradition from some conservative groups but not throw out Mrs. White in the process.

i love watching a man of GOD grow (decades) in JESUS even from afar

kinda makes it difficult to locate anyone, then, doesn't it? And don't the Yearbook editors have anything else to do than to research down whether or not a listed pastor is ordained or not?? I'm to the point where I'd be just as happy having NOBODY "ordained" - I think it's given way too much importance in the grand scheme of life..

Adventist pastors in the United States are paid the same regardless of their gender, if employed by the same Conference and in the same area and with the same length of service.

I don't see someone saying "Adventist" as being a label! I see being called a conservative, liberal as a label. If you smoke and your called a smoker, is that a label?? Not to me! If you kill people and someone calls you a killer, is that a label? Not to me! So I believe there are times when one can be called something like that, and its definitely not a label, its what you are. If you see a mother with a her child, can you call that person a mother? Absolutely. Its when a person votes for a republican and is then called a conservative, then in my book, that's a label. There's no reason to believe that, lets say I vote for Carson, that that makes me by any means a republican!!

Gen 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." God is sovereign, yet He foresaw the entrance of sin and allowed it. He allowed it for a purpose that we do not fully understand this side of eternity, but because He is sovereign and because without Him sin couldn't exist (not that He created sin) He assumes the responsibility for all sin until the day of atonement. Then it will placed on Satan, the scapegoat. Or, as the book Light on the dark side of God, suggests: Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent. Note how often He describes them as His own doing in vivid, convincing terms. ...Why would God choose to so express Himself? His reason is not unknown in the human realm.

First, because you have added "sell EVERYTHING" which is not in the verse. Second, because, like you, I know that Christians are never told to sell all they have and have nothing left for themselves. I bet you have not done what you suggest I do? Or will you blame this on inherent fallen nature? Third, because if I gave all away, I could not provide for my own and would be worse than an infidel. Fourth, I believe in sustainable giving, not to give all and start from scratch with nothing. Fifth, if I were to sell land and give it to the church as in early acts, then I would expect you to do the same and sustain me after I am destitute - which is what they were doing. Sixth, that early Acts happening was one off, at Pentecost as the Church was being born. In later Acts, socialism no longer existed - capitalism reigned. Seventh, the call in Matt 18 to the young rich ruler to go sell all was a call to be the 13th apostle. Apostles were expected to give up all since they would be on the move from hence. None of this pertains today unless the Holy Spirit makes an exception to this rule for you. Eighth - you introduced this giving as a total red herring to the original discussion

Robert, when we show agape love, that act springs from our will (helped along by God who works in us both to WILL and to do). Agape love does not originate in our genes any more than sin does. Agape is not some sort of juice or essence that you have or do not have. Agape is outgoing love which you consciously decide to express. God cannot give you a pint of agape against your will. Even agape is will related.

Hi Pnattmbtc So by logic alone (no science or chapter and verse) you ask "how else could it be passed from one generation to the next?" My whole argument is that no sinful nature is passed from one generation to the next, so that solves it for me. But to play your answer out a bit, when Lucifer "fell" did he pass his "fall" from himself to his fellow demons by a change of DNA? Or did they each of their own free will "fall" simply by a change of mindset? And when Lucifer "fell", at what stage did his DNA change? There is no mention by the way of God changing Mankind's DNA anywhere in the Eden story. And before Adam and Eve "fell" they were clearly conflicted over a very simple choice of to eat or not to eat. Clearly their DNA had to be intact before the "fall" yet they "fell" anyway, with intact DNA. They did not need DNA to "fall". And neither do I need DNA to explain why all of us, Paul included and Christ (with pretty good DNA) are conflicted at times as to whether to do our own or the Father's will.

The idea that it is by believing in Christ what we receive the Holy Spirit is unscriptural? What do you think happened in Acts? Galatians 3:2 says explicitly that we receive the Spirit by faith. How do you think we receive the Spirit? What are you talking about? To exercise faith is to believe in Christ. We have been given the ability to believe in Christ, which involves gratitude, appreciation, and thankfulness, which I explained in discussing the story in Luke 7. I've also spoken of the principle of reciprocity, which is built into us (the desire to return a favor). To "have faith" in the sense of salvational faith, is to have Christ. We receive Christ by faith; when we do that, then we "have faith". Before that, we have the ability to believe, the ability to receive Christ, but until we receive Christ, we have not received Him. Right, and how do we receive Christ? We receive Christ by responding to His invitation, to allow Him into our heart. Faith and believe are from the same greek word "pistis". God has given us the ability to exercise faith. To "have faith" is to have Christ, whom we receive into your heart by faith. If one can believe, then all one can conclude is that one can believe. Anyone can believe, because all have been given that ability. But not all have received Christ. Again, to "have faith" is to have Christ, because we receive Christ by faith, and when the Scriptures talk about having faith, the Scriptures are talking about those who have received Christ by faith. To "have faith" is to be a believer in Christ. Just because one can believe does not mean that one is a believer in Christ, which is what one could infer from your statements.

You say you disagree with me, but I cannot see how. Everything you or I do we do because we will it. Good and bad. Our sinful nature refers to those times when we fail to do that which is in line with what God wills. That is not some fallen state or new phenomenon. Paul's battle with himself is no different to Adam's battle before he ate - "I know I must not eat this fruit but I am drawn to it simply because it is there as a choice". Again I say free will is a natural, God-given state (in fact part of being "In His likeness"). Being tempted occurred before the "fall" of man and Lucifer. Being conflicted is not a result of some "fallen state" since Adam, Eve and Lucifer were conflicted before their supposed "fall", just as Paul was in his day.

If I read you correctly Robert, you are saying that mankind is no longer in the image of God or after His likeness. I could ask any Christian I know whether we (NOW) are created in the image of God and after His likeness and they will agree with me, that we still are in His likeness. I presume that everyone on this forum will agree with me too. All that this means is that my cat is after the cat kind, just as man is after the God kind at creation and still today. Nobody I know would try to say that some humans (those with agape) are in God's image, and the rest of mankind is not. Well I cannot say "nobody" since you are the first to define "in His likeness" as an agape issue.

The relationship is evident and certain when the spiritual changes of righteousness by faith in Christ are evident in the suppliant. Sharing the gospel is nothing more nor less than revealing what Christ has worked out in us. 23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. 24 Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness. 25 This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the Lord; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood. 26 Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear. 27 I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?....Jeremiah 13 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.....John 15 .8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever. ....Hebrews 13 God is Love! Jesus saves!

Our job designated by the Master is___________ 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.…Mark 16 His responsibility is to fulfill His promises to us as we seek to follow His instructions. …10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;....Isaiah 55 God is Love! Jesus saves!

The Editors of the YEARBOOK reserve the right to edit the information given to them to comply with "official" SDA standards. Thus, the potential is there for the YEARBOOK editors to list certain of the "pastors" as "ordained" and to list other pastors in other catagories. The involved Conferences did not want this to happen. In an attempt to prevent it from happening they intend to not supply such information as they would prefer to have no listing than to have a listing the does not comply with their wishes.

I'm told that this shouldn't really be interpreted as a protest. They wouldn't mind sending in a list of their pastors to the yearbook. They're merely being realistic. They realize that their own distinction (pastors/interns) most likely won't be accepted, and in turn they are unwilling to have their employees listed according to the old categories.

Powerful post Unchained!!! Mrs. White is looking at the past and principles that will come around again, and being aware of what happened and what could have happened will help us to recognize it when it comes around again. But sadly Satan has tidied up religion. He has given us traditions that has it all figured out. He has God set in cement. He has blinded us to the fact that the Lord could have come hense this and that the Bible and Mrs. White tells us what could have happened. From seeing what could have happened we can see the same principles when it comes around again. But sadly since this is not tidy enough, we don't want to get into the nit and gritty of Bible study. While making the Pope the Whole beast we are thus open to accepting other aspects of the beast. While looking for a return to the 5th head many of us will embrace the 7th head. While waiting for the strict Sunday Laws, there will be something with Sunday but does not peter out as we expect so we move on and embrace the larger issues of the mark of the beast (Mrs. White says that Sunday laws are a test for the Christian world and implies that the issue is larger than Sunday keeping and that there will be other manifestations to other parts of the world.) We know it all and warnings that we don't know it all and need to study deeper are excused as liberal unbelief and we embrace and put faith in our traditions. And as the Bible proves to not fit the standard of the Fundamentalist, Christians will face the same issues we faced with Walter Rea. Only why trust in this dry untrustworthy book when we have "Jesus" "Paul" and "Mrs. White" and" your loving Grandma" and other dear ones back from the dead and willing to share with us what is correct.

I have to ask myself, would I ask Jesus Christ to go to a movie with me, or watch one on TV or DVD? Would I play some music if he were in the room with me? Everything we see, hear, or do, is all monitored and recorded. We're all on different paths, and at different times, but our goal is to join the Kingdom where nothing evil is permitted. If we pull out the weeds in our lives, then there's more room for the flowers to grow. While my spouse watches all of the crime shows on TV, I don't like to be around it, but even so, I sometimes get caught up in the drama. I usually get the computer out, close my eyes, and listen to the audio Bible with headphones on.

I don't think Naomi had you in mind with her post! Just a thought, but I could be wrong!!

The brain is an amazing organ, it functions 24/7/365, and it does literally everything to keep one alive. It deals with electrical impulses, fluids and chemicals. Sometimes when one or more of those things goes wrong, strange things happen, if the electrical impulse misfires then one can have a seizure, if the chemicals get imbalanced then mental illness disorders occurs. Drugs and psychotherapy will usually get this imbalance back on track. People who are demon possessed normally don't realize that they are possessed or that they even have a problem. Other people can pick up on a possessed person though. Work with your doctor and don't stop taking your meds, and please see a psychotherapist they can give you exercises to help with the depression and anything else you are dealing with. <3