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The book, 1492, describes the evidence we have today that the anteEuropean North Americans were pretty advanced, i.e.- they changed landscapes to either bring in food or be able to grow it in otherwise useless places. And this they did without destroying the biodiversity (unlike those in Brazil today). Google, "black earth" to see how the S Americans created soil that would be arable for a thousand years: Black earth soil

I have personally experienced the laughing of church members regarding alcohol and it turned me right off. It actually ticked me off, coming from people who probably never touched a drop nor had to suffer the effects upon their families. The small groups at church or those in homes may provide both the support and the courage to speak out in more public venues such as SS. Mark, I share with you the dependence on the power of God as a help. I have an ongoing problem with spending- out of boredom, having a history of poverty, or just fascination with the pretty things being offered. What has helped the most is first realizing that 1) those things will all be swept away when Jesus so I should be ready to give them up if need be NOW, and 2) praying for contentment in my heart. It is the prayer for #2 that has been answered the most profoundly. Self is a big issue for me, a continual one.

The posts here have been a real blessing. Thank you, and keep it coming Please.

I have been an AA from 1976 to 1979, then continuously since February 3, 1986. Decided that I needed to do some more "research". February 15, 1986 was the day I was commissioned a police officer. I went out hung-over and realized that booze and police work didn't mix. I wouldn't be able to help my partner if the situation ever went south. So I stopped. And stayed stopped. The comments about AA are spot-on. Alcoholics take their disease seriously, for "To drink is to die." AA has probably saved more lives than, ... oh, you know. AA has one-liners. There is an Android app called "Slogans" that delivers, well, slogans. Examples: "The will of God will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you." "One step at a time." "God is never late." The "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous shows its way to recovery. As we say at AA: "The Big Book costs about the same as a fifth, but it lasts a lot longer." The first time I read the Big Book, I thought: "They're telling my story! I don't have to put on a front. I can be honest." Things that could/would never come out in church, owing to behavioural expectations. In AA meetings I heard people being honest. One memorable meeting was a youth meeting with candle light. It was in the basement of a Lutheran church. One 13-year-old girl told of tricking for booze and drugs. Another man told of a friend who blew out his brains with a .38. Real people, real problems, ...and most importantly... real solutions. You find the gamut of human emotion at an AA meeting, from the lowest to the highest. Probably the most important part of the Big Book is Chapter 5, "How it Works". link(Chapter 5) I (heart) AA!

Well as some of you know i was to have a disk fusion on Oct 24. that went off with a little problem i was leaking too much spinal fluid so i was not able to get up and do much for my first two day s in the hospital. Things got a bit better Sabbath the 26 and i was able to get up and down a little they keep me one more night and that sis the trick I was able to get up and get dressed in my own clothes for the first time in 4 days. . That many here didn't not know was on the 17th of Oct my Mom back from her Alaska trip came down to pick me at the RV where i was living with my boyfriend, I had every thing packed that i would need at their house for my recovery. my mom and i talked a lot and i told her how bad things had gotten with my boy friend and his verbal abuse and told her i didn't not want to go back to that situation once i had recovered from surgery. so on two days be for surgery we were back at the RV this time to quickly pack every thing i could and to give back the keys to the truck and the RV and the Mail box. we drove to the storage unit and paid for the month of Sept so that i could get my items out of there and we brought every thing home to be sorted through and separated into three piles one to keep one to give away and one for trash. we have managed to get things into less then 10 boxes. I am healing well and in the last 14 days i have been walking 0.300 - to a.500 miles a day with out much pain. it is so nice to be able to walk with out so much pain and i am starting to use my cane less and less. I get tired out easily but feel positive. I am also taking three classes from Coursera on writing and grammar and have complete the first week of each class and home work . It is so nice not to be yelled and cussed at any more and be blamed for things that i didn't to and be yelled at about who i am talking to. Was gong to go to church tomorrow for the first time in a long time but my mom doesn't think that i am quiet up to it yet. I am trusting her judgement on this and other things as we fill out what i need to be able to move back to OR and be on my own and hopefully be able to work.

when asked by students about that very thing, here's what my Speech and Drama professor at Walla Walla said: "There's nothing wrong with going to the theater. There *are* some who produce bad movies which aren't suitable for consumption. I screen what I watch by calling the theater and asking if I can take my 8-yr-old daughter to see the picture. If they say 'No,' then I don't even want see the movie. That advice was given to me by Sir Lawrence Olivier."

I was invited to one, and was amazed of the people. It was an open mic or something like that, where a speaker from another group came in and shared her story. As I looked around the room I saw those with struggles that I would not want to ever have, yet they were at peace over the peace they had found, and success. It was very moving to say the least. I knew of an adventist Church that would host a NA meeting Saturday midnight, was told if they can make it through Saturday night, they can usually make it through the rest of the week.. I was asked if our Church could ever be as open and accepting as they are. I think the answer is a clear no. ANYONE else attended something like that?

Ben Carson has been accused of slandering the victims of the UCC shootings. The charge is itself slander for it is a completely dishonest attack on him. The attack is at the following link. https://www.thenation.com/article/ben-carson-just-keeps-getting-more-awful-why/ What the author of the article leaves out is that Ben was responding to a question put to him of how HE would respond in the same situation. How an answer to that question can be construed as attacking victims of a mass shooting is beyond me. Well, it's not really beyond me. All you have to do is put aside all honesty and then you can construe his answer to mean anything you please. This goes to show the depths to which the liberal media will sink in their attempts to knock Carson out of the Presidential race. There is a whole lot of fear on the left when this type of slander is being used. Why the fear? Because Ben is an accomplished, intelligent, black conservative who proves not all blacks fit into the mold the liberal media likes to put blacks in. A mold that is highly insulting to blacks if you ask me.

P.T. Barnum, Believers, and Blood Moons P.T. Barnum never actually said it, although one doubts that he would have argued with the premise. Around 1870, a group of businessmen with somewhat compromised principles attempted to convince the paying public that a statue they had created was, in fact, a petrified, pre-historic human being. Experts dismissed the hoax for exactly what it was, but among those who defended the authenticity of the ‘giant’ were theologians and preachers. The existence of a 10-foot tall giant from pre-historic times suggested giants once lived on the earth, ‘validating’ Genesis 6:4 which, they said, suggested that very thing. In reference to Barnum’s role in the Cardiff Giant hoax, David Hannum stated, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” The recent talk about the supposed Biblical significance of blood moons has again demonstrated exactly the same thing. Perhaps Christians are especially prone to frauds and hoaxes. To begin with, we believe in the supernatural. We believe in things we don’t see, even remarkable things which, for unbelievers, stretch the boundaries of credulity. Grandma was really that sick and then miraculously revived in answer to a simple prayer of faith? The Christian would rightly answer, “Yes, indeed!” As a group, we Christians are very open to the unusual and unexplainable. A friend of mine told me about the time he became lost while hiking in the woods. While following a stream out of his predicament, he became disoriented and was overcome by extreme cold. After praying God would provide some way to keep him warm, he looked over to the bank of the stream and found a pair of abandoned fishing waders. Unbelievable. Unless, of course, you believe. And Christians believe. Many Christians have a worldview that is heavily influenced by prophecy and prophecy, at times, can be difficult to understand. The Bible suggests the end of the world is coming, that Jesus will return, that in Earth’s final days a strange beast will affect society and a mark will be enforced upon almost every living being. In an effort to understand these strange passages of Scripture, it’s virtually impossible for a believer not to be exposed to fanciful interpretations. We want to believe. And we want to believe the great, the magnificent, the sensational. That is likely why Christians continue to send money to preachers who promise that the prayer mat they offer is going to enhance their relationship with God. Or that a container of holy water is in some way going to draw a person closer to the Almighty. It would seem that no one could possibly deduce from Scripture alone that the donation they send to any given ministry is, in actual fact seed, which will result in a harvest one hundred times greater than the amount sent. It would seem that way but Christianity is still riddled with snake oil salesmen and a gullible public willing to support them. A preacher who sets a date for “Judgment Day” should only be ignored (and prayed for). But certain believers believe and the world watches on while the eye of Christianity is blackened. Which isn’t to say people shouldn’t be entitled to believe what they choose to believe. They most definitely should. And they most definitely do. Some Christians pray to dead people. Others believe a God of love is going to burn people in hell forever (which is an especially long time). Some believe in confessing sins to a human priest who claims heavenly authority to forgive sin. Others insist that when Jesus returns many believers will disappear, leaving behind unsaved masses who will live through a time of terrible crisis. There are still churches where otherwise perfectly reasonable people handle rattlesnakes due to what they believe to be a mandate from God. And so it goes. But why do people believe what they believe? What makes it possible for some people to believe not only the unbelievable, but also the irrational? Which brings us to blood moons. After conducting a funeral service several weeks ago, I was approached by a lady who told me with great conviction that it was all going to happen on September 23. I wasn’t sure exactly what “it” was, but she made it clear this was something to do with judgment and the economy and the end of the world. She exuded confidence. “Well, one thing is for sure,” I told her. “We’ll soon know if your prediction is accurate. And if it doesn’t happen?” I asked. She recited a carefully prepared answer that left her feeling far less confused than she actually sounded. One didn’t need to be a scholar to know there was no light in her ludicrous claim. This was snake oil. A prayer mat. Seed money. This was a Cardiff Giant. I was told growing up that deaths came in threes. At times it definitely seemed to be that way in our little town. But whether true or not regarding death, it certainly seems to be true of bad predictions. At least, it has been lately. Bad prediction number two dealt with the papal visit. Pope Francis is an incredibly influential man, and the church he leads is not only the most influential church in the world, but also (it could be argued) the most influential nation. I shouldn’t have been surprised at the amount of times I was told that during his Apostolic Journey to the United States the pontiff would make an announcement of prophetic, game-changing proportions. While it is certainly true that the iron-fisted rule of the popes of yesteryear was characterized by dramatic and even draconian pronouncements, the People’s Pope was on an altogether different mission to the United States. While his predecessor appeared to have been carved out of ice, Francis emanates likability and kindness. His smile could light up a room and his demeanor is equal parts kind uncle, family friend, and Mr. Nice Guy. His six-day American charm offensive was never going to be about saber rattling. The day after he left the U.S. a CNN.com headline read, “How the Pope Brought us Together.” Those who hyperventilated prior to Francis’ week in the U.S. are now left saying, “Yes, but…” Yes, but your judgment was terrible. You banged the drum and sounded the alarm and tried to convince us that the sky was falling. It wasn’t. It’s still very much there. For now. People waiting to see the blood moon, at Mt St Helens. And then there was the blood moon. Or judging by the sheer volume of speculation and hype, The Blood Moon. The moon turning red due to lunar eclipse—a very rare event—coincided with the Biblical Jubilee year. The whole sorry exercise was little more than a demonstration that while Christians know the end of the world is coming, many know precious little about the Biblical signs pointing to the event, and less again about the prophecies that actually inform it. Why are believers in Jesus such easy prey? In asking that question, I don’t want to be like the scholar who, in the aftermath of the Waco siege, defined a cult as being essentially any Christian group who didn’t agree with his understanding of the Bible. It’s okay to be wrong. Even the disciples didn’t understand some of Jesus’ plainest statements. But it’s curious, isn’t it, when Bible-believing Christians are led to believe entirely unbiblical speculations? How did people arrive at the conclusion that the economy was going to crash on September 23? Or that the pope was going to push the world towards doomsday? Or that a red moon was ushering in the end of the world? It certainly wasn’t through careful Bible study. Which makes you wonder, how is it that Christians who claim to believe the Bible end up in such theologically divergent positions? Why is it that people pray to the dead? Why is it people believe in a seven year period of global tribulation? Why is it that earnest saints of God honestly believe sending a $100 check to that sincere man on television is going to result in a financial windfall and material prosperity? These positions aren’t the result of careful Bible study, because the Bible makes no such claims. These are Cardiff Giants. I remember talking to a dear lady who told me “that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Together we read 2 Corinthians 5:8, the passage from which that thought is derived. “See?” I asked her. “It doesn’t say that at all. It’s just not there.” She stared at the Bible. She stared a little longer. She blinked. And then she said, still staring straight ahead, “Well, it must be somewhere else in the Bible. Our preacher read it just last Sunday.” He said it, maybe, but he never read it. Another blood moon. We want to believe, but we evidently don’t want to read our Bibles to see if what we’re basing our beliefs upon is fact or fiction. It’s easier, especially when dealing with subjects such as the Jubilee year, to simply take someone else’s word for it. We want to be able to trust our pastors and teachers, and so we do. Yet Christianity is the simplest thing in the world. If you accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God, all you need to do is base your beliefs on what you find written therein. If the instructions on the box say, “Don’t use this heater around water.” Then you don’t. If the instructions on the package say, “Microwave on high for two and a half minutes.” Then you do. If the Bible says blood moons and the Jubilee year are going to herald the coming of Christ, then so be it. But if the Bible doesn’t say such things—and it doesn’t—then you shouldn’t give such claims the time of day. But as someone once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” Christians heard someone say—without any biblical basis—that the economy was about to melt down, and with eyes wide open they bought into the silliness and shared it with evangelistic enthusiasm. Believers heard someone claim Pope Francis was going to bare his theological fangs and press his foot down on the prophetic accelerator, and because so many trust without verification, the idea was widely accepted in certain circles. And all across the Christian landscape the cry went up that the blood moons were in some way a herald of the end of time, that these signs in the heavens were harbingers of the end of it all. While it’s true the end will come; while there’s nothing more certain than the fulfillment of prophecy; while Jesus will return and the Earth will go through “a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation” (Daniel 12:1), Bible-believing Christians stared into the phony face of the Cardiff Giant and declared with gusto, “He’s real!” P.T. Barnum would have loved it

That plus the medicines they got from whatever was around them. They did not have time enough to discover what would help against the newly immigrated European diseases and of course we know how devastating the result of that was. The question is a great one! I doubt that we will ever know half of the First Nation innovations of old.

You are right, PK, but I understood Pam to mean by Europeans.

Wingnut, I like it - that you have thought about those who lived and died in ignorance. How will the LORD give them an opportunity to "know" Him? If HE doesn't give them any opportunity at all - then He's not JUST. Or - on the other hand - if HE simply gives them a FREE PASS, without their ever having to CHOOSE, that would also be UNJUST. If they died in ignorance, the only way they can have an opportunity to learn about God and Christ, is to wake them up. So WHEN does this happen? I believe it will happen at the 8th millennium. I believe they will be "the rest of the dead".

Wow!!! You'll "have no faith in Him" if God doesn't fulfill things in the manner you think He should. Really? Don't crawl too far out on a limb Wingnut. Doesn't God preserve a whole LOT of living human beings, by removing them from this earth, to the safety of "the City which He has prepared" ? That would fulfill the promise for me.

Someone else would have discovered it. There is evidence that the Vikings already discovered it long before Columbus did.

What qualities would qualify one to be cut out for the presidency?

All very good questions. I look forward to hearing some ideas on this. Myself..my mind is flyin this way and that and can't land anywhere. # Even one question did that!

I don't believe that Gog/Magog come up to surround the Holy City New Jerusalem. I don't believe THAT City will descend until the earth (and the people) are cleaned up and prepared to stand in the presence of God. There is an interim City, and an interim Temple (the one shown to Ezekiel). There's no REASON for an interim Temple, unless there are people who are NOT YET READY to stand in the presence of God. They still need a buffer. The question: Will that interim Temple exist during the 7th millennium, or the 8th millennium? You're taking the 7th millennium argument. I'm taking the argument for the 8th. That makes a good discussion. I'm not sure that the Book of Revelation is strictly chronological. Christ comes at the sixth seal (6:17). He comes at the 7th trumpet (11:15-19). He is described as sitting on the cloud, and reaps the "harvest of the earth" in 7 wrath plagues. (14:14 to 16:21). He is described again as riding a white horse and leading the armies of heaven (19:11-16) to tred the winepress of the wrath of Almighty God". I think the prophecies give sweeping overviews, and then go back to give more details of various steps along the way. Daniel - I believe - does this. The four horns of Cpt 8, that come up in place of the one notable one, are the SAME POWERS represented by the "four beasts" in Cpt 7. Daniel 7 gives the last great powers, and Daniel 8 widens the view, to see what lead up to those four powers, and what will follow.

Wingnut, You and I are simply giving opinions here. I'm very clear on that - in my book. It's my opinion - which I feel completely free to change - IF someone convinces me of a better one. I have also changed my view on many doctrines and beliefs, over the years. That doesn't make me right - or wrong. Just says I have tried to think for myself. The prophecies have not yet been fulfilled. I don't really like comments such as "your logic fails you" or "you have a lot invested in believing". The first implies I am not logical. And the second implies I am clinging to an opinion, simply because I have published it. I find such comments less than helpful, in a discussion.

What do you thing the smells will be like? Can you imagine the perfume coming from the Tree of Life? And it would be different every month!

The Markham Woods Church? OR one of the Spanish churches? I was at Markham Woods for SS and Worship once and again for an afternoon program for a workshop. PTL you were cured! Takes a big man to admit that. Happy Sabbath!!

Take the Constitution away and what do you have left? Do you still have those rights? But you still have the people and the Creator Why did women not have the right to vote before the 19th ammendment was ratified? When the Supreme Court argues points of law, whom do they consult? The people? The Creator?

As an aside... There is a Feast mentioned in Lev 23 which follows directly after the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles (which pictures the Millennium). That feast is called Shemini Atzeret. Lev 23:39 "and on the eighth day shall be a Sabbath". This feast pictures the 8th millennium. What is interesting is that Feast keepers are commanded to live in booths or temporary dwellings for the 7 days, but on Shemini Atzeret, the eighth day, they move back into their homes. I don't know what the Jews today do, but that is what the Bible commands. This 8th day pictures a new beginning and permanence. This pictures the New Jerusalem, and the new heavens and new earth. I am not into the significance of numbers (which has a name which I forget). But I believe that 8 is used in the Bible for New beginnings, which the new Jerusalem coming down in the 8th millennium fulfils. If one keeps the Feast of Tabernacles in a booth of branches (see Neh 8) by the end of 7 days the branches are withered. How do you get rid of them? You burn them - which is what Rev 20 with all its references to fire, points to.

Stupid Phrases for People in Crisis http://communicatingacrossboundariesblog.com/2015/09/28/stupid-phrases-for-people-in-crisis/ God will never give you more than you can handle. While some may believe it is theologically correct, depending on your definitions, it is singularly unhelpful to the person who is neck-deep in a crisis, trying to swim against a Tsunami. A wonderful phrase recently came from Support for Special Needs. They suggest changing this from “God will never give you more than you can handle” to “Let me come over and help you do some laundry.” This strikes me as even more theologically correct. It gets better. Yes, yes it does. But right then, it’s not better. And before it gets better, it may get way worse. When God shuts a door, he opens a window. Maybe, but maybe not. Maybe he just shuts a door. Maybe there is no window. There was no window for Job. There was a cosmic battle that raged as he sat in distress. There might not be a window. Did you pray about it? Again – theologically correct. “Don’t worry about anything, instead, pray about everything…” but in a crisis, you don’t heap guilt onto pain and suffering. Pray for the person, but please, please leave the clichés at home. God is good – all the time. Another one that is technically theologically correct. But is it helpful to say this when someone has just lost a child and is screaming at Heaven? Is it helpful to say this to the person who just had their fifth miscarriage? Is it helpful to say this to the woman going through a divorce, because her marriage could not hold up under the stress of a special needs child? They may say it, and we can nod our heads in agreement. But for us to say this from a place that is calm and safe will probably not be helpful. But for the grace of God go I. “But why you? Why do you get that grace and not me? Why am I the one in the crisis? Was God’s grace witheld from me?” Those are valid responses to that phrase. I understand the phrase, and I’ve used it myself, but it doesn’t help the person who is in deep pain. Don’t worry. God’s in Charge. Yeah? Well, he’s not doing a very good job then is he? God is in control, but it brings up some serious theological implications about God’s role in the crisis. Instead of a theology of suffering, we might want to think about a fellowship of suffering. Maybe God needed to get your attention. Thank God no one ever said this to me during times of crisis – because I might have to punch them in the face with a knife. That’s all. Maybe it happened for a reason. Remember what I said about punching someone in the face with a knife? Yeah – that. Just call me if you need anything. While I want to appreciate this, the fact is that people in crisis usually don’t have the ability to call, so they won’t. Even if you don’t know someone well, you can bring them a meal or drive them somewhere. I could never go through what you’re going through. This, my friends, does not comfort. A false elevation of the character and ability to cope of the person going through the crisis only serves to further wound and isolate. The one who is going through a crisis longs to be on the other side. They wake up and breathe deeply, only to remember the awful reality of their situation, and wish they didn’t have to go through it. When I think of your situation, I’m reminded how blessed I am. No. No. No. First off, this is theologically completely incorrect. The beatitudes heap blessing on those that mourn, on those who are meek, on those who are poor in spirit — not on those who are safe, secure, financially stable, and proud. Those in crisis are not an illustration of how blessed everyone else is. In the counter intuitive, upside down way of the Kingdom of God, blessing looks completely different than what we in the West have made it to mean. There are big problems with our use of the word and concept of blessing. So what do we do? How do we respond? I think those are difficult questions, but the best analogy I have for people in acute crisis is looking at them as burn victims. Caring for burn victims is divided into three stages that overlap. The first is the emergent or resuscitative stage. At this stage priority is given to removing the person from the source of the burn and stopping the burning process. The big things to think about are fluid replacement, nutrition, and pain management. Translated into crisis care, this means we’ll bring meals, coffee money, and pick up children from day care. The second stage is the acute or wound healing stage. At this stage, the body is trying to reach a state of balance, while remaining free from infection. During this stage, patients can become withdrawn, combative, or agitated. This stage can be a lengthy and unpredictable stage. Burn victims, like people in crisis, often lash out at those closest to them. Translate this into listening, listening, and listening some more. The final stage is the rehabilitative or restorative stage. The goal at this stage is for a patient to resume a functional role within their family and community. Reconstruction surgery may be needed. Encouragement and reassurance are critical to the person at this stage. This would translate into going on walks with the person, taking them out to a movie or dinner, having them over for coffee or a meal. Burn care has a lot to teach us about loving and caring for people in crisis. And those who care for burn victims rarely use clichés — they are too busy caring. In February, I wrote a piece called Toward a Fellowship of Suffering, and I’ll end what could be a cynical post, with words from that piece. “There is something about suffering that longs for someone to sit with us through the pain. It’s the fellowship of suffering. It’s the words ‘you are not alone’ put into action. The sitting bears witness to our pain. More than a card or a casserole, the familiar, patient presence of another says to us ‘it’s too much for you to bear, but I will be with you, I will sit with you.'” For Part Two: Caring for People in Crisis, tune in here and a written sequel is here.

Yes, that is very much like the wisdom I heard once of the moving example of someone coming to comfort a person grieving the loss of a loved one. The person just sat beside them and said nothing. But just wept for awhile, gave the person a hug. I learned the less said the better. Being there is the most important part. And being there after the flowers fade and the mourners have left. Check in with the person a week later. A month later. Six months later. A year later When the burden of loneliness is crushing their soul. Do something normal with them and for them. Remember their loved one with them.

There are certain sins that are nothing but a joke to many people. Anger issues, food addictions, etc. Bring these up in SS class and you'll think they're watching a Seinfeld show by the way they'll be laughing. In answer to you original question Stan, no, I do not believe that our church will ever be that accepting.

I would prefer to be like Job's friends at the beginning when they sat with him and said nothing. I'd rather the victim talk and I'll just listen.

One key fact that is being ignored: the people who stopped the attack on the train in France did not use guns! I like to think that, if I saw a terrorist attack in progress, I would find a way to run in and crash-tackle the shooter. It might even happen... or I might die in the attempt. What I would not do is kill in the attempt - because I would not have a gun. Carson was talking about guns, so the case in France is largely irrelevant as an argument.

CORRECT! In virtually every tyranny in modern times, the tyrant first ensures that nobody but he and his forces is armed. The Founders of this country were aware of this propensity, and took steps to prevent it. One may or may not be personally in favor of owning a firearm, but in our country, until the Constitution is changed, the 2nd Amendment is as legitimate as the 1st Amendment.

An Op-Ed piece in today's WASHINGTON POST is captioned "The Most Unfit GOP Candidate is Not Trump." This piece is by Jennifer Rubin and is about Ben Carson. I've always felt he was wasting his time and money by entering the presidential race. He's not cut out for that type of stuff, IMHO.

I lived there quite a few years ago and still know people in that area. None of them are happy about Obama showing up there. They find his stop there to be very objectionable.

I have relatives there in Roseburg. And they are Democrats. They felt that the immediate politicizing Mr Obama did first thing after the UCC massacre was terribly disrespectful and hurtful to the victims and their families. It was their feeling that if the POTUS would come to the city and ONLY make condolences, that would be fine... but because of his previous words, it would be difficult give his gesture as much credit as it would have, had he not done the politicizing in the first place.

Actually, the Nazis themselves commented on the fact that the Jews they rounded up were by and large inoffensive to their captors, and they were able to round them up and kill them with a minimum of manpower. It actually did make the Holocaust much more possible than almost any other single thing. Were the Jews armed, and were they willing to defend their rights as human beings and citizens, the Nazis would have had to expend much more resources to do what they did. Not to say that they might not have still been successful, but resistance would have made it much more difficult.

There are no countries who are peers to the United States in both population and wealth, with the possible exception of China, and that's a stretch insofar as population goes. Also, in the US, raw homicide reports include shootings of self-defense, as well as suicides. Aside from that, the other wealthy countries do not have nearly the amount of racial and gang issues, that the US has. And, unfortunately, those issues, along with mental health issues, seem to be at the heart of so many murders in the US.

We have individual responsibility. The church has corporate responsibility. Either can fail in its mission.

O Please Lazarus; get real. It's a trite saying; but if the government outlaws gun ownership, only the outlaws (and cops) will have guns. The only way to stop bad guys with guns is for good guys to shoot back (or badder bad guys). Any attempt to make gun ownership illegal in this country will likely result in armed insurrection. Cars kill more people in this country than guns. Should we make cars illegal while we're at it? Didn't Hitler make gun ownership in Germany illegal just before he launched WW2?

I have to shake my head in wonderment every time I see a post like this coming from a professed Christian. Why? Because for a Christian to blame guns for murder to ignore the most basic of Christian truths. Remember, the first murder happened before any kind of weapon was ever invented. So, murder happens because of sin, not because of guns, or because of weapons of any kind. To insist on anything else is to ignore truth, and thus promote dishonesty. Guns have been proven over and over again to be essential to freedom, essential to liberty. Our founding fathers understood this and that is why they included the right to keep and bear arms in the Constitution. They wanted the citizens of this country to always have the ability to rebel against tyranny and keep their freedom. Every time a dictator has wanted to impose a complete dictatorship he has disarmed the citizenry of that country as one of his first steps in consolidating his power. The fact that you think a political agenda is more important than the right of people to grieve in peace and not want their loved ones to be props for a political agenda says a lot about you, and none of it is good. That you claim not only to be an SDA, but a pastor also, says you don't understand anything about the religion you profess to believe in. You believe in politics before compassion and tyranny over liberty. If you didn't you could not have said what you did here.

Perhaps Obama should go to Chicago for his photo op and praise how well the restrictive laws are working. Maybe there are some there that need the important work to save the lives of those who might be killed by some gunmen somewhere. It isn't even a question of the ire of the relatives of the dead. Let the dead bury their dead and grieve in peace.He is being asked by those in grief,please leave us alone. Has as much class as the lunatics from the Westboro church

I think one of the issues is that no one person can speak for all of Islam. Can one person speak for all of Christianity? We need to draw on a variety of perspectives, views and input... and to avoid confirmation bias, and to seek perspectives that challenge us. As a general rule, I'd sooner listen to a Christian talk about Christianity than a Muslim talk about Christianity, and in the same way in general I'd prefer to listen to a Muslim talk about Islam than to a Christian talk about Islam. I'd prefer to listen to a mainstream Christian preacher than a member of Westboro Baptist, and I'd prefer to listen to a mainstream mullah than a member of Daesh, when it comes to understanding the tenets of a faith. Is it possible to find people saying intemperate things about any faith? Sure. But when deciding whether those things represent the whole or majority of that faith, we need to be careful that the same rules apply for the in-group as for the out-group.

Yes, it is a disturbing trend to see political views trump religious values. We are seeing that in other areas as well. It is as if politics is becoming a religion. Kind of an oxymoronic joining of faith and force, religion and power.

Hi Rachel, I read the first 3 parts of your study. from a 10,000 level I agree with your logic and conclusions. I have reached basically the same conclusions as you independently. We could quibble about details, but why? The only detail worth mentioning is that I believe the harvest will take place sometime during the trumpet period; I don't want to limit it to just prior to the 7th trumpet. I'm thinking maybe after just before the 5th trumpet since the last 3 trumpets are the Three Woes. But who knows? Time will tell.

Silly me! I never supposed I'd ever read about SDA's discussing carry guns. My brother, Charles was enlisted into the Army during the 2nd WW. That meant that he was trained to save lives and not take them. This at one time was a strong Adventist belief and culture. Desmond Doss along with hundreds..perhaps thousands of young men were strong in their belief that they were in God's care and keeping. If they died while serving God as best they could, they knew and understood that for them their next living moment would be at the Resurrection with an angel gently bringing them from the grave. My brother was one of these men that actually gave their lives. He was killed on the island of Luzan about a month before the war actually ended. I wonder what he would say about the question of concealed guns in church. How did it happen that the gun culture has come into this church?

Thank you stinsonmarri, for letting the folks know that my study does not follow the traditional Uriah Smith, SDA pioneers, EGW interpretation. That will help folks. Those who absolutely adhere to EGW interpretation can skip my study. Those who think she may not have known it all, might be interested.

I can think of a few places where I was, where neither Jesus Christ nor the holy angels were with me...

I believe that Christ was trying to teach us something important when he allowed himself to be arrested, tried, and killed, all without resistance. In this life it is important to conduct ourselves as those who follow Christ's teachings. Because of our varying and sometimes dubious backgrounds, we may struggle in some areas. This life, though, is but a short blip in the timeline. We must use our time here to prepare ourselves for the great test that lies ahead, after the resurrection. It is then that we must make our final choice between serving YHVH or Satan. It is then that those who do receive YHVH's mark will become targets of persecution, torture, and execution. Because YHVH's followers know that he will bring them back to life, there is nothing permanent about laying their lives down to demonstrate that they will serve the LORD, and him only, even to the death. It is terrible that men with guns are so willing to murder unsuspecting, defenseless people in all walks of life, but those who trust in YHVH know that death in this life is nothing, only a chance to sleep before awakening at the resurrection. According to the scriptures, what YHVH expects of those he chooses to join his kingdom is for them to be loyal to the death, obedient, docile, and a pure and unselfish heart. There is no place for us as fighters in the Kingdom of YHVH.

Not to be confrontational, but for a group of “believers” that I have always heard say that they find it funny that people will obey 9 of the Commandments and fight the 4th one about the Sabbath can dismiss the 6th.....the one that says “Thou shall not murder”. And please don’t go “well, murder is different than self defense”. That is a run-around that does NOT hold water at all. EVERY person that followed Jesus in the Bible should have killed every time they were beat up, tossed in jail, etc...right? Why not? Because of the 6th Commandment. What did Jesus, the one folks claim to be Lord and follow, do when someone used self-defense on His behalf? What about the claim of “Loving” while at the same time taking a life that has not had a chance to Accept or Reject Christ? How can a mere Follower of Jesus become judge & jury? They can not...there is NO PLACE in the New Testament that sanctifies such a thing. Those who feel it is OK to take a life for any reason needs to go back & re-read the book they claim to follow, just like we did.....obedience is HARD when it smacks us in the face..... Nuff Said.....

Christ and His disciples are to be our example. You refer to the holocaust, but what about the martyrs of old times? What's the difference? The holocaust showed how far people could stoop when controlled by the devil. It also brought out the good in people (which I believe is from God). What would it have profited the jews if they fought against the army with guns? Unless they won, they still would have been murdered. Would you want to die trying to kill someone to save your life? What would it profit the souls that you are trying to kill, because they're trying to kill you? We should be attempting to save lives, not to take them. Wearing your seatbelt won't get someone else killed (at least as far as I'm aware). Wearing a seatbelt can protect the person wearing and also the others in the vehicle. Yes, these kinds of things are good. Besides, who says God wants us to do everything we can to preserve our lives? Where does the Bible say that? The Bible says the opposite. "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." ~John 12:25~ And many lives were saved in the holocaust by people hiding the Jews, without violence. Sadly, many were found and sent to camps and/or murdered, but many also were saved.

Have you read "The Desire of Ages?" Do you know why the men fell back when they came to arrest Jesus? If anyone had the right to defend Himself, it was Him. He is God, but He allowed Himself to be taken captive. He suffered abuse and torture. He died for us, quietly... And not only Him, but His apostles, too. Peter was a fighting man. If it was right to defend our own lives with violence or weapons, Peter probably would have been slashing away at his enemies... Have you read the book of Martyrs? Did you know that many people converted because of how God's spirit moved on many of the martyrs (not all of them, sadly), to go to their deaths without using violence to defend themselves? Even executioners were executed because they would not kill those beautiful people. Can we show God's love by using violence, weapons, etc, to defend our rights, our lives? What about that of others? I believe it shows a lack of faith in God's ability and willingness to protect us. I believe it shows an unwillingness to let God lead us wherever He wants us to be, especially if it's to our death. By going to death the way Christ would, even one soul, possibly more, may be convicted of God's love, His sacrifice... And what if we took a life? If you kill someone who is trying to kill you or others, you are sending them to eternal death as well...They'd die with that sin on their hearts... Have any of you seen "The end of the Spear?" It may help you understand... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-gg27Ltf98

It says in the bible to lay down your life for Christ, not to fire back! WOW I am just blown away by the fear mongering you people have bought into this church. Again I'm just blown away.