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Good point. One that I hope to remember. There was a quote: "The fools laugh..." but I never heard the rest of it. Anyway, you will be in my prayers. Jesus saves us from our sins not with them. Blessings to you and those you cherish!

Someone else would have discovered it. There is evidence that the Vikings already discovered it long before Columbus did.

Columbus was more the conquest of the Americas rather than the discovery. Of course we were here 500 years earlier (the Vikings of course). And the History channel a few weeks ago reshowed a program of a number of other potential people from Europe, Asia and Polynesia prior to Columbus. According to the book "Lies my Teacher told me" the Phoenicians were making occasional trips here in the time of Hezekiah (while there ships were too small to do much trade or to come often, they could have brought missionaries and have brought Hezekiah's reformation to the world). I even read an article once that there was evidence that some Scandinavians may have come back around the time that Abraham lived. There is evidence that Columbus was interested in the travels of an Irish priest who may have come as well as the Vikings, and thus was aware of the land over here. It would have been interesting had Hezekiah's reformation spread through out the world. And it would have been interesting to learn what would have happened here had Columbus not come and started the conquest of America.

If Christopher Columbus hadn't discovered America (and it *was* a discovery to the Europeans), what would have been the state of North America, as well as the world, today? The Crusades had already happened. The warlords of Asia had already invented gunpowder and associated weapons. The Black Death that killed approx 40% of Europe's population had already happened. The printing press had already been invented. Native Americans and Asian peoples were already using herbs in medicines. What would North America look like today if it had been left untouched? Would the Native Americans/First Peoples still be living in pristine wilderness? And would their violence have escalated to the point of the Asian warlords? Would there be communication beyond the drums and smoke signals? Would diseases have developed via mutations and spontaneously without the introduction of pathogens by Europeans? Would North America still be ravaged by forest fires and droughts? Would North America more resemble some of the undeveloped areas of Africa, segueing from their previously *developed*, though hard, lifestyles and cultures, to that of abject poverty? Or would "poverty" only come as a result of industrialization and the rise in power of a few? Would North America have become over-populated? Or would natural happenings occur (such as whatever happened in the American Southwest to the Anasazi tribe)? Would world history be altered, insofar as discoveries of medicines and other scientific advancements, and the development of the industrial revolution? (Insulin for diabetes, by the way, was developed in Canada.) Would there have been "world" wars? If so, who might have won? (just some ponderings, as Columbus Day on October 12 is coming up, celebrated in the US, Spain, and many countries in Central and South America...)

Looks to me like Uriah Smith

I'd take a jar of Marmite. I need a lot, as I am developing a recipe for Marmite flavored snack sticks.

okay... let's just all attack the OP, and turn this thread into soliloquys on the the wicked and evil Christopher Columbus, how he conquered North America, or, alternatively, how he didn't step foot on North American soil, how Native Americans were all brutalized, etc, etc, etc. So much for the notion of what North America and the world might be like today, if Europeans hadn't stepped foot on the continent... (by the way, the OP was presented by someone with Native American heritage)

Good idea. I agree fully with your point 1. Rachel: 2. At the Second Coming: IF there ARE any righteous witnesses still living, they will be given eternal life. Their physical bodies will be changed to new "spiritual bodies". Wingnut: I agree "Paul wrote 'we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air..' implying there will be those alive and remaining at Christ's second coming. Rachel: 3. At the Second Coming: Those confirmed in rebellion against God, will HEAR judgment pronounced against them. Those who have died will be resurrected to HEAR this judgment. They will then be left to die in the last plagues. Wingnut: I see no scriptural evidence for this. Rachel: 4. The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet. They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. Wingnut: We are close here. I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved). I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming. The 6th seal is the start of God's punishing the earth. Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc. Rachel: 5. Those who lived and died in ignorance are NOT raised at the SC. Their sins were those of ignorance, and thus are not counted against them. They will sleep on through the 7th millennium. Wingnut: I fully agree. Rachel: 5. The redeemed (Israel) will go with Christ to "the City which He has prepared", where they will enter into training and preparation for priesthood. Wingnut: I don't believe in this 7M training period. Rachel: 6. At the 8th millennium, redeemed Israel will "return to the land" to rebuild and restore. They will build Ezekiel's Temple. Wingnut: I believe this will be built during the 7M. Rachel: 7. A river of life will flow out from Ezekiel's Temple to restore the face of the earth. Wingnut: The Ezek 47 river is the one which starts at Christ's second coming when His feet stand on the Mount of Olives. But otherwise we are in agreement on the river from the Ezekiel temple which is built at the beginning of the 7M, IMHO. Rachel: 8. "The rest of the dead" will come to life. They will constitute "nations". They will be governed by the priesthood - under Christ. Wingnut: Agreed Rachel: 9. Satan will be released, because now there are souls for whom the battle has not been decided. He will seek to deceive them. Wingnut: Agreed. Rachel: 10. Many will come to know the LORD. Wingnut: Agreed. Rachel: 11. Many will rebel against the ruler-ship of Christ. They will come against "the land of Israel" (not just against Jerusalem), as the army of Gog-Magog. Wingnut: Agreed. Rachel: 12. God will defend His City. Fire will come down from Heaven to consume them. Wingnut: Agreed. Rachel: 13. The Holy City New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven. Wingnut: Agreed. I think we are 10/13 in agreement or 77% in agreement

Obviously you are unable to tell the difference between the two situations. A armed robbery is quite a bit different than the random shooting of victims.. How would you charge a gunmen with his gun in your ribs. Most people would have the intelligence to hand the money over as quickly as possible and stop the possibility of someone being shot. Not having the money it would have been tough for Dr Carson to do so,don't you think? Watching people being shot around you would and should have a different impact on your thinking and what id anything could be done.

Not a bad idea! Yes, It does make one wonder. Maybe it would have delayed the ending of the country, as it was before the 'discovery', but my feeling is that the change was inevitable. But, maybe not. Who knows! There is an author who writes books about an alternate ending to WW2 and what the world was like after. Would be interesting to read what his fertile mind could come up with.

Yes, Jesus Himself said that a time period is coming when ALL in the graves will hear His voice and come out. "all in the graves" necessarily includes both the righteous and the unrighteous. The righteous will rise first; then the wicked will rise next. This time period is the 2nd Coming because Jesus said He will reward every man when He comes again. That each one is to receive his own reward necessitates one's presence in the rewarding. And the rewards are eternal life for the righteous, and wrath of God - the 7 last plagues, for the wicked. NKJ John 5:28-29 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. NKJ Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. NKJ Acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. NKJ Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. NKJ Romans 2:5-8 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath NKJ Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

The book, 1492, describes the evidence we have today that the anteEuropean North Americans were pretty advanced, i.e.- they changed landscapes to either bring in food or be able to grow it in otherwise useless places. And this they did without destroying the biodiversity (unlike those in Brazil today). Google, "black earth" to see how the S Americans created soil that would be arable for a thousand years: Black earth soil

Historywise, a recent one I saw was called, Admiral, and it was a true story about a Korean admiral in the 1500s that took on the Japanese navy with 11 ships and WON due to his outstanding strategic skill. The movie about Georgiana Cavendish, the Duchess of Devonshire whom Princess Diana quoted when she said, "There are three in this marriage," was excellent. Georgiana was Diana'a ancestor and was born at Althorp. Truth is often stranger than fiction and history does repeat itself more than we care to admit.

It's like everything- what may provide temptation for one slips off the back of another. Ask the Lord what is helpful for you and what tends to pull you earthward. I enjoy documentaries. The war ones are not the most positive material but knowledge of the Holocaust, say, the genocide of the Armenians or the results of tyrannical regimes helps me be historically informed. It is one thing to read about the tens of thousands of casualties the Bible describes in ancient battles and another to see real images. Just saw the biopic of Keith Richards... It gave me an insight as to what influenced him musically and a bit into his mindset. I sometimes pray for celebrities; I think that not all of them are anti-religious but in any case you never know what can happen as a result of a prayer. The entertainment environment can't be easy to break away from but it can be done. Other than that I also like foreign films. They often reflect the political or social realities of where they come from. I remember once seeing a film about a young man in Israel whose turn had come up to strap on a pack of dynamite and get on a bus. In some areas that is real life. Another involved the comedy of UN involvement in the Yugoslavian war. One Chinese film I saw tackled the futility of trying to get medical help in Communist China back in the day. I like German-made movies about WWII for how they relate what it was like for the ordinary German in the time of Hitler. European acting is superb and the storylines can be profound.

Take the Constitution away and what do you have left? Do you still have those rights? But you still have the people and the Creator Why did women not have the right to vote before the 19th ammendment was ratified? When the Supreme Court argues points of law, whom do they consult? The people? The Creator?

Well as some of you know i was to have a disk fusion on Oct 24. that went off with a little problem i was leaking too much spinal fluid so i was not able to get up and do much for my first two day s in the hospital. Things got a bit better Sabbath the 26 and i was able to get up and down a little they keep me one more night and that sis the trick I was able to get up and get dressed in my own clothes for the first time in 4 days. . That many here didn't not know was on the 17th of Oct my Mom back from her Alaska trip came down to pick me at the RV where i was living with my boyfriend, I had every thing packed that i would need at their house for my recovery. my mom and i talked a lot and i told her how bad things had gotten with my boy friend and his verbal abuse and told her i didn't not want to go back to that situation once i had recovered from surgery. so on two days be for surgery we were back at the RV this time to quickly pack every thing i could and to give back the keys to the truck and the RV and the Mail box. we drove to the storage unit and paid for the month of Sept so that i could get my items out of there and we brought every thing home to be sorted through and separated into three piles one to keep one to give away and one for trash. we have managed to get things into less then 10 boxes. I am healing well and in the last 14 days i have been walking 0.300 - to a.500 miles a day with out much pain. it is so nice to be able to walk with out so much pain and i am starting to use my cane less and less. I get tired out easily but feel positive. I am also taking three classes from Coursera on writing and grammar and have complete the first week of each class and home work . It is so nice not to be yelled and cussed at any more and be blamed for things that i didn't to and be yelled at about who i am talking to. Was gong to go to church tomorrow for the first time in a long time but my mom doesn't think that i am quiet up to it yet. I am trusting her judgement on this and other things as we fill out what i need to be able to move back to OR and be on my own and hopefully be able to work.

Yes, for many people that size Bible would not work. Rather an ABC gift certificate. NOTE: For some of you, ABC is Adventist Book Center, Not Alcoholic Beverage Control Board.

I would be willing to donate a book or Bible as a prize And the photos don't even have to be good. There could be a bad photo contest as well

I'd be willing to donate some research time and do a family tree if someone's interested in their ancestry... (info is kept confidential)

In the other discussion in this thread -- the one about what part "works" plays in salvation or justification -- it is strange that people insist on using the English definition of faith rather than the Biblical meaning of faith. In both Hebrew and Greek, the word "faith" conveys both the meaning of belief (in your head) and also the meaning of faithfulness (the actions that result because of what you believe). Faith and faithfulness are two sides of the same coin and cannot be separated in real life. This is clearly exemplified in Hebrews chapter 11 (The "faith chapter" ) where the great men of faith are commended because of their actions rather than for what was in their heads. When reading the Scriptures In English you get a more accurate meaning for the word "faith" if you read it as "faith with faithfulness" or as "faithing" to remind you that the actions can't be separated from the faith that's in your head or heart. It was possible for the Greeks to discuss the "belief only" kind of faith (as we have in the English language) but that is not the usual meaning in Scripture. When James talks about this "belief only" kind of faith he clearly states that, "faith without works is dead". Yet in the discussion I see people speaking of that dead kind of faith as if it had a valid part in New Covenant salvation or discipleship. The New Testament believers would think you were all absolutely nuts if they heard your discussion and the way you try to separate faith from faithfulness and the way you quote passages without regard for the whole context for which they were written.