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P.T. Barnum, Believers, and Blood Moons P.T. Barnum never actually said it, although one doubts that he would have argued with the premise. Around 1870, a group of businessmen with somewhat compromised principles attempted to convince the paying public that a statue they had created was, in fact, a petrified, pre-historic human being. Experts dismissed the hoax for exactly what it was, but among those who defended the authenticity of the ‘giant’ were theologians and preachers. The existence of a 10-foot tall giant from pre-historic times suggested giants once lived on the earth, ‘validating’ Genesis 6:4 which, they said, suggested that very thing. In reference to Barnum’s role in the Cardiff Giant hoax, David Hannum stated, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” The recent talk about the supposed Biblical significance of blood moons has again demonstrated exactly the same thing. Perhaps Christians are especially prone to frauds and hoaxes. To begin with, we believe in the supernatural. We believe in things we don’t see, even remarkable things which, for unbelievers, stretch the boundaries of credulity. Grandma was really that sick and then miraculously revived in answer to a simple prayer of faith? The Christian would rightly answer, “Yes, indeed!” As a group, we Christians are very open to the unusual and unexplainable. A friend of mine told me about the time he became lost while hiking in the woods. While following a stream out of his predicament, he became disoriented and was overcome by extreme cold. After praying God would provide some way to keep him warm, he looked over to the bank of the stream and found a pair of abandoned fishing waders. Unbelievable. Unless, of course, you believe. And Christians believe. Many Christians have a worldview that is heavily influenced by prophecy and prophecy, at times, can be difficult to understand. The Bible suggests the end of the world is coming, that Jesus will return, that in Earth’s final days a strange beast will affect society and a mark will be enforced upon almost every living being. In an effort to understand these strange passages of Scripture, it’s virtually impossible for a believer not to be exposed to fanciful interpretations. We want to believe. And we want to believe the great, the magnificent, the sensational. That is likely why Christians continue to send money to preachers who promise that the prayer mat they offer is going to enhance their relationship with God. Or that a container of holy water is in some way going to draw a person closer to the Almighty. It would seem that no one could possibly deduce from Scripture alone that the donation they send to any given ministry is, in actual fact seed, which will result in a harvest one hundred times greater than the amount sent. It would seem that way but Christianity is still riddled with snake oil salesmen and a gullible public willing to support them. A preacher who sets a date for “Judgment Day” should only be ignored (and prayed for). But certain believers believe and the world watches on while the eye of Christianity is blackened. Which isn’t to say people shouldn’t be entitled to believe what they choose to believe. They most definitely should. And they most definitely do. Some Christians pray to dead people. Others believe a God of love is going to burn people in hell forever (which is an especially long time). Some believe in confessing sins to a human priest who claims heavenly authority to forgive sin. Others insist that when Jesus returns many believers will disappear, leaving behind unsaved masses who will live through a time of terrible crisis. There are still churches where otherwise perfectly reasonable people handle rattlesnakes due to what they believe to be a mandate from God. And so it goes. But why do people believe what they believe? What makes it possible for some people to believe not only the unbelievable, but also the irrational? Which brings us to blood moons. After conducting a funeral service several weeks ago, I was approached by a lady who told me with great conviction that it was all going to happen on September 23. I wasn’t sure exactly what “it” was, but she made it clear this was something to do with judgment and the economy and the end of the world. She exuded confidence. “Well, one thing is for sure,” I told her. “We’ll soon know if your prediction is accurate. And if it doesn’t happen?” I asked. She recited a carefully prepared answer that left her feeling far less confused than she actually sounded. One didn’t need to be a scholar to know there was no light in her ludicrous claim. This was snake oil. A prayer mat. Seed money. This was a Cardiff Giant. I was told growing up that deaths came in threes. At times it definitely seemed to be that way in our little town. But whether true or not regarding death, it certainly seems to be true of bad predictions. At least, it has been lately. Bad prediction number two dealt with the papal visit. Pope Francis is an incredibly influential man, and the church he leads is not only the most influential church in the world, but also (it could be argued) the most influential nation. I shouldn’t have been surprised at the amount of times I was told that during his Apostolic Journey to the United States the pontiff would make an announcement of prophetic, game-changing proportions. While it is certainly true that the iron-fisted rule of the popes of yesteryear was characterized by dramatic and even draconian pronouncements, the People’s Pope was on an altogether different mission to the United States. While his predecessor appeared to have been carved out of ice, Francis emanates likability and kindness. His smile could light up a room and his demeanor is equal parts kind uncle, family friend, and Mr. Nice Guy. His six-day American charm offensive was never going to be about saber rattling. The day after he left the U.S. a CNN.com headline read, “How the Pope Brought us Together.” Those who hyperventilated prior to Francis’ week in the U.S. are now left saying, “Yes, but…” Yes, but your judgment was terrible. You banged the drum and sounded the alarm and tried to convince us that the sky was falling. It wasn’t. It’s still very much there. For now. People waiting to see the blood moon, at Mt St Helens. And then there was the blood moon. Or judging by the sheer volume of speculation and hype, The Blood Moon. The moon turning red due to lunar eclipse—a very rare event—coincided with the Biblical Jubilee year. The whole sorry exercise was little more than a demonstration that while Christians know the end of the world is coming, many know precious little about the Biblical signs pointing to the event, and less again about the prophecies that actually inform it. Why are believers in Jesus such easy prey? In asking that question, I don’t want to be like the scholar who, in the aftermath of the Waco siege, defined a cult as being essentially any Christian group who didn’t agree with his understanding of the Bible. It’s okay to be wrong. Even the disciples didn’t understand some of Jesus’ plainest statements. But it’s curious, isn’t it, when Bible-believing Christians are led to believe entirely unbiblical speculations? How did people arrive at the conclusion that the economy was going to crash on September 23? Or that the pope was going to push the world towards doomsday? Or that a red moon was ushering in the end of the world? It certainly wasn’t through careful Bible study. Which makes you wonder, how is it that Christians who claim to believe the Bible end up in such theologically divergent positions? Why is it that people pray to the dead? Why is it people believe in a seven year period of global tribulation? Why is it that earnest saints of God honestly believe sending a $100 check to that sincere man on television is going to result in a financial windfall and material prosperity? These positions aren’t the result of careful Bible study, because the Bible makes no such claims. These are Cardiff Giants. I remember talking to a dear lady who told me “that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Together we read 2 Corinthians 5:8, the passage from which that thought is derived. “See?” I asked her. “It doesn’t say that at all. It’s just not there.” She stared at the Bible. She stared a little longer. She blinked. And then she said, still staring straight ahead, “Well, it must be somewhere else in the Bible. Our preacher read it just last Sunday.” He said it, maybe, but he never read it. Another blood moon. We want to believe, but we evidently don’t want to read our Bibles to see if what we’re basing our beliefs upon is fact or fiction. It’s easier, especially when dealing with subjects such as the Jubilee year, to simply take someone else’s word for it. We want to be able to trust our pastors and teachers, and so we do. Yet Christianity is the simplest thing in the world. If you accept the premise that the Bible is the word of God, all you need to do is base your beliefs on what you find written therein. If the instructions on the box say, “Don’t use this heater around water.” Then you don’t. If the instructions on the package say, “Microwave on high for two and a half minutes.” Then you do. If the Bible says blood moons and the Jubilee year are going to herald the coming of Christ, then so be it. But if the Bible doesn’t say such things—and it doesn’t—then you shouldn’t give such claims the time of day. But as someone once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.” Christians heard someone say—without any biblical basis—that the economy was about to melt down, and with eyes wide open they bought into the silliness and shared it with evangelistic enthusiasm. Believers heard someone claim Pope Francis was going to bare his theological fangs and press his foot down on the prophetic accelerator, and because so many trust without verification, the idea was widely accepted in certain circles. And all across the Christian landscape the cry went up that the blood moons were in some way a herald of the end of time, that these signs in the heavens were harbingers of the end of it all. While it’s true the end will come; while there’s nothing more certain than the fulfillment of prophecy; while Jesus will return and the Earth will go through “a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation” (Daniel 12:1), Bible-believing Christians stared into the phony face of the Cardiff Giant and declared with gusto, “He’s real!” P.T. Barnum would have loved it

Thanks for that, Kevin. I have run into that somewhere, that there was a connection with Barnum and Willie White and the circus understanding. I enjoyed reading the article in the OP. We were able to enjoy the eclipse as science but a few days later, in the store, I was listening to a customer who is of the sort mentioned in the article making comments about the Pope's visit. There are some times when it's better just to say nothing.

Wow, that is such an original piece of thinking, to say that Satan mimics the 7 last vial plagues with trumpet plagues. They are remarkably similar. That is a genuine compliment to you if you thought of that yourself. I am not saying you are right since I will have to ponder that, but I admire original thinking as much as art critics admire an original painting.

I do say they are sealed away by a rapture at the 6th seal, before the trumpets. The 6th seal is "the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds with great glory". Like the SDA's I believe the dead are raised at the last trump, the asleep raptured saints along with Enoch and Elijah will join them, the alive believers left on earth (new converts of the 2 witnesses) will rise to meet the Lord in the air. Now we have all the righteous who ever lived meeting Christ in the air and these constitute the "firstfruits". Then, departing from SDA beliefs, these remain in the air and watch the 7 last vial plagues being poured out and the last battle at Armageddon. Then all the righteous RETURN to earth and start rebuilding it as Zech 14 says. Thus they are on earth ruling over about 1 billion people who have not been killed by the end-time mass extinction.

My wife is a native U.S. Citizen. I met and married her in Seoul, Korea where she was teaching in the English department of a Korean University. She learned to bargain over price. Yesterday I went to the local Ford agency to request some service for my car. I was informed that the agency had raised their rates over what I had expected to pay. The service rep. got into an argument with me, and informed me that I would have to wait quite a while before I could have the service provided.. What I did not know was that a management person was standing behind me and listening to the conversation. When I used the phrase "unethical business practice," the management person stepped out form behind me and said: We will provide the service at the price you requested and we will provide that service immediately. You will not have to wait. I expressed appreciation for her response to my request and asked for an additional service. The response was: We will provide you with that free of charge. And they did, and immediately. NOTE: While I was frank as to what I expected and wanted, I was always polite and appropriate. When given what I wanted, I immediately expressed appreciation for their response. Being impolite should not be expected to achieve results.

I was thinking the same thing. Uriah Smith as a young man.

I found this fascinating map (excuse the politics) I am not educated enough to address the most interesting questions in the OP..but i have been looking at all the posts thereafter and understand the intent. At the end of this post I will share a picture from my colourful Imagination! I am only able to focus on one thought at a time and settled on the Anasazi as a jumping off point (pun intended) .......................................... Ancestral Puebloans From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "Anasazi" redirects here. For other uses, see Anasazi (disambiguation). Cliff Palace, Mesa Verde National Park White House Ruins, Canyon de Chelly National Monument The Ancestral Puebloans were an ancient Native American culture that spanned the present-day Four Corners region of the United States, comprising southern Utah, northern Arizona, northwestern New Mexico, and southwestern Colorado.[1] It is believed that the Ancestral Puebloans developed, at least in part, from the Oshara Tradition, who developed from the Picosa culture. They lived in a range of structures that included small family pit houses, larger clan type structures, grand pueblos, and cliff sited dwellings. The Ancestral Puebloans possessed a complex network that stretched across the Colorado Plateau linking hundreds of communities and population centers. They held a distinct knowledge of celestial sciences that found form in their architecture. The Kiva, a congregational space that was used for ceremonial purposes chiefly, were an integral part of this ancient peoples community structure. In contemporary times, the people and their archaeological culture were referred to as Anasazi for historical purposes, a name which arises from the Navajo language. Anaasází, roughly meaning "ancient ones" or "ancient enemies" depending on how it is used, is not preferred by contemporary Puebloans[2][3] though it is still utilized by speakers of Diné bizaad. Archaeologists continue to debate when this distinct culture emerged. The current consensus, based on terminology defined by the Pecos Classification, suggests their emergence around the 12th century BCE, during the archaeologically designated Early Basketmaker II Era. Beginning with the earliest explorations and excavations, researchers identified Ancestral Puebloans as the forerunners of contemporary Pueblo peoples.[1][3].... ................................................................................................................... GET READY FOR A RIDE! Seeing the marvelous ways of adapting in such a beautiful pristine SouthWest America (not named America..if not taken over by my ancestors). And knowing to some degree their ( i.e. many tribes) ancient respect for mother earth..echoing God's First Madate... And God blessed them [granting them certain authority] and said to them, “Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subjugate it [putting it under your power]; and rule over (dominate) the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and every living thing that moves upon the earth.” Gen 1:28. Puttin forth All tribes with Respect for the Environment would be the driving force. And Gods handi works would be predominantly displayed and Marveled at and inspire Deep Reverence and Love for GOD. We can conclude that the way it was for thousands of years can continue (if not bothered/annihilated by my Western European God Fearing Ancestors) for a thousand more. Ancient remedies and cures from nature could cure many of the world's ills. And Native Americans can take the World Stage as Natural Healers. The deep rain forests would stay pristine and help/heal the global atmosphere of the scourge of Industrial China ...as well as the total destruction of Western and Eastern Europe by the Germans. Natural insulins found in South America and exotic plants and fruits would be discovered and utilized in fair trade and bartering. As well as the Cure for cancers and heart disease. Our Rain Forests are ripe with them undiscovered. Living in total Symbiosis to the climate.crops,and culture. Many Ancient Native Americans recognize Same sex orientated People are more spiritual than the regular hum drum heteros and will Teach the People (not about sex). Hand made Crafts and art would be sold around the world. Gold and Silver in the Western Hills shipped around the world. and extracted Naturally (No Mercury used.) People from all around the world would forgo their modern living just to vacation here in the more agreeable climates. But must go back home to the busy electronic/chemical self destructive modern world. So not to SULLY the World as God intended. No over Fishing by the Inuits. Planting and harvest with total regard for the soil. Rich heaLTHY deep colour Foods shared freely.Popcorn and Cacao would be the Snack of choice and rice cakes would be properly used as shipping package materials. Harvesting Wind and Sun and never see a drop of black oil. ... and The Peace Pipe would be shared with heads of state at the Tribe gatherings and set the mood for everyone to Mellow out. this made me think!

Looks to me like Uriah Smith

It's an interesting premise. Perhaps someone has written a "what if" novel on this topic. If not, they should.

IF the "scroll" given to Jesus, who then breaks the seals - is LIKE an ancient scroll, you CANNOT OPEN the scroll - or unroll it, UNTIL all of the seals are broken. It's not a scroll, within a scroll, within a scroll. Events happen on earth AS Jesus is breaking the seals, but the scroll does not unroll or "open" UNTIL the last seal is broken. I did a little research into ancient scrolls and which ones were "sealed", and with how many seal, I found that only documents considered EXTREMELY important were sealed in this manner - (such as last will and testament scrolls).

The rapture is not a rewarding of any one any more than the translation of Enoch and Elijah being translated to heaven. In other words, there is no difference between a translation and a rapture. How do you explain two in a bed, one taken, one left, two in a field...?

I surmise the texts provided are sufficient enough for the issue tackled. There is no secret rapture because everyone will be rewarded according to his works when Jesus comes, not before He comes as would be the case if there would be a secret rapture.

IsraAID volunteers are helping thousands of refugees, often from enemy countries like Syria and Iraq. http://www.aish.com/jw/s/Refugees-Dont-Care-if-Were-Israeli.html?s=mm

I applaud them! Some of the comments were rather typical. We can either look at the positives of life or live in fear of the negative.

Ordination, as practiced by the SdAs, is mostly a carryover of the Catholic tradition of segregating out a professional clergy from the lay masses. IMO this distinction has no place in a bible-believing church.

A little history of Corinth where Paul wrote for women to be silent. Corinth was a sea port town where most of the population was transit. People would come from all over the world. Husbands would do business for a few months or years then go home, frequently bringing their families with them. Paul found this situation good to teach people then they bring the message home. Outside of Israel,(Israel was literate, at least the equivalent of a 6th grade reading level because of the Bible). most of the world was illiterate. Women even more so. In Corinth the men would speak Greek, maybe Latin as well as their local languages. Their wives tended to only know their home language. They would friend those from their countries. Church in Corinth would be difficult for the women. You could either translate every few lines into each language or just have the service in Greek where the husbands could understand then they could teach their wives. This is the issue that Paul was facing and that we need to remember as we study the text. The two theories from people who do not know the historical situation are the one that Paul did not want women to speak in church Or the liberal view that also says that Paul did not want women to speak for what ever reason but he was a victim of his times and it does not apply today. However, knowing the history we have a lot more options.... And I cannot take credit for being too original. It is based on things I learned over the years, especially at AUC, the Seminary, Loma Linda, and the Jerusalem Center for Biblical Studies, and things that have been pointed out in this discussion forum. One excellent book if : Jim Fleming's "Attitudes towards Women in the Bible." Dr. Fleming has a 5 lecture series that I heard a number of years ago on the topic. http://www.biblicalresources.net/product.cfm?product=58

Since the commissioning service/ceremony is in substance virtually identical to an ordination service, other than one word and the resulting credential issued, the obvious answer is no. (If you watch a video of each without the sound, you would likely not be able to tell the difference.) The credential is periodically reissued. The initiation ceremony is not repeated. So the clear and umabiguous intent is that all pastors in the conference will all receive the same credential without regard to gender. To avoid offending those who oppose the recognition of the call of women using the word "ordained", the credential will avoid the use of that offensive word for everyone. The synonym that seems to not upset anyone is "commissioned", so that will be used instead. At least until somebody figures out a reason to find that to be offensive too.

Nuff Sed: The idea of ordination was that the person had enough experience to be considered proficient and an "Elder" who could guide others. There are the verses of mostly Paul that are taken out of their historical and literary context and read with and interpreted by a person's imagination. This have been understood as women not speaking etc. Some women speakers in other churches find that the men turn their chairs around when they speak. The same thought pattern appeals to a number of Adventists. Except that if they followed their "proof texts" to a tee they would have to reject Mrs. White. So they created an Adventist tap dance and interpret their proof texts as a woman can do everything that it looks like Paul says that they can't do just as long as they are not ordained. Paul was not talking about unordained women when he wrote those verses but only if we want to ordain them do those verses come into play. The Adventist church has indeed been ordaining women they just set up loopholes and theological summersaults so that they don't have the "O" word applied to them. To ordain women would actually make it easier for the church as we can be open and honest about what we are doing and have been doing right along for a number of years. However it would upset members who are trying to compromise between being a good conservative Christian (for some reason Adventist have a neurotic need to prove to the world that we are good Baptists) and their approach to the key texts they use from Paul. All we have are inexperienced pastors and experienced pastors. The word "Ordination" was used to mean an experienced pastor, but in Norway they will no longer use the term due to the controversy and the Adventist tap dance to want to accept tradition from some conservative groups but not throw out Mrs. White in the process.

kinda makes it difficult to locate anyone, then, doesn't it? And don't the Yearbook editors have anything else to do than to research down whether or not a listed pastor is ordained or not?? I'm to the point where I'd be just as happy having NOBODY "ordained" - I think it's given way too much importance in the grand scheme of life..

'Temper tantrum'....? Really? Just because they decided to stop a man made function?

Holding a minor's diploma hostage isn't cool.

I was 27 and my wife was 24 when we married. Statistically we had almost everything going for us. However I was unaware of a personality disorder she had until it changed venue after about 13 years into the marriage. We lasted until 18 years but as many of you know, the marriage failed. With diet and lifestyle, there are things we can do which boost our chances of staying healthy. Likewise, with romance there are thing we can do to boost our chances of a successful marriage. However marriage takes two people saying yes and divorce takes only one person saying no.