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Kinda cool!

Ty is great. I find the Gospel is often misunderstood because of misunderstanding what the problem is, exactly along the same line as what Ty is talking about in regards to legalism. That is, if we view God in a certain way, then we will view that He requires certain things because of His being that way (such as a payment for sin, in order that He can forgive us). However, if we view God as He has revealed Himself to be in and through Christ, then rather than viewing things as requirements that God needs (either to forgive us, or for us to make Him happy, or such) we can see that the problem lies with us, and we simply need to view things as they are (by which I mean primarily God, and ourselves too). As the OP poster has put it, "God is better than we think, and we are worse" (something like that)

A comment has been made along the lines that Jesus saves from... so the steps aren't needed. My question would be, is Jesus against us 4.searching our souls to know all our faults or as much as possible at least 5. admitting those faults 6. become willing to be relieved of those 7. humbly (very important it be humbly) ask God to relieve us of those faults, aka sins. 8. made a list of all people we have harmed 9. Make amends to the best of our ability to those individuals 10. Continue to check ourselves every day 11. Continue to seek to know God and His will more and more every day 12. Share the good news of what is happening in our life The first 3 didn't seem to be an issue so I left them out. Problem is, the program doesn't stop there, now we have to take a good look at ourselves, not joe blow and how he may not be living up to our standards in his life which does not affect us, but ourselves. If it is an either/or I have to wonder, well I just have to wonder.... Seems to me this program offers a change of life which, as I read both the bible and EGW we shall not see eternal life without doing these things. Would anyone like the bible texts that go with these steps?

If Christopher Columbus hadn't discovered America (and it *was* a discovery to the Europeans), what would have been the state of North America, as well as the world, today? The Crusades had already happened. The warlords of Asia had already invented gunpowder and associated weapons. The Black Death that killed approx 40% of Europe's population had already happened. The printing press had already been invented. Native Americans and Asian peoples were already using herbs in medicines. What would North America look like today if it had been left untouched? Would the Native Americans/First Peoples still be living in pristine wilderness? And would their violence have escalated to the point of the Asian warlords? Would there be communication beyond the drums and smoke signals? Would diseases have developed via mutations and spontaneously without the introduction of pathogens by Europeans? Would North America still be ravaged by forest fires and droughts? Would North America more resemble some of the undeveloped areas of Africa, segueing from their previously *developed*, though hard, lifestyles and cultures, to that of abject poverty? Or would "poverty" only come as a result of industrialization and the rise in power of a few? Would North America have become over-populated? Or would natural happenings occur (such as whatever happened in the American Southwest to the Anasazi tribe)? Would world history be altered, insofar as discoveries of medicines and other scientific advancements, and the development of the industrial revolution? (Insulin for diabetes, by the way, was developed in Canada.) Would there have been "world" wars? If so, who might have won? (just some ponderings, as Columbus Day on October 12 is coming up, celebrated in the US, Spain, and many countries in Central and South America...)

I have listened to quite a bit of the video about her. Just maybe, she is following the leading of God in her spiritual journey? Who are you to say? Who are you to predict where God will lead her next. Just maybe, God does at times lead one out of the SDA Church in order to save them.

Yes, makes sense. We see Jesus was separated from others by their sin. The complaint of the pharisees was "this man fellowships with sinners". But sin causes us to think things about God which aren't true, which is seen from the very beginning, where Adam and Eve ran and hid from God (who surely was Jesus Christ). Why would anyone run and hide from Jesus? It doesn't make sense, apart from the tricks sin plays on the mind. Consider the scene at the temple. The money changers couldn't get away quick enough, but at the same time children were approaching Jesus to sit on His lap! If we could only see how good God is, and how bad sin is.

i appreciate this post. sin does not separate God from us, it separates us from God... i don't know if this makes sense to anyone. sin blinds us, but God is not blinded by sin. He remains the same yesterday today and forever, loving and gracious and merciful. He cannot remove all the impacts of sin on our lives but he will never remove his love towards us, even if we perish he does not cease to be loving. in mercy we warns us and labors to save us from ourselves in our poverty of soul and blindness and ignorance...

It is the little things that count. We make choices on big things. But what drives such important choices is the accumulation of countless choices on many small things, related or not, that mold and form our will to decide at that momentous occasion. Yes, it is inevitable that the person who turns left a thousand times at the fork in the road is going to "automatically" go left under the pressure of a "new" choice when the way is supposedly obscured and uncertain. But what sort of choice does the person make who suddenly wakes up and devices to stop just going with the flow and turns and states swimming against the current of life, his heredity, his preprogrammed instincts? To say that never happens makes it hard to explain the truly surprising and unexpected choices we make. Somethings can only be explained by free will. Otherwise we are biological robots.

Human nature being what it is, maybe some big chief would have wanted to conquer and rule as much territory across the Americas as possible, maybe even from shore to shore and encompass an entire continent. Some humans, it seems, are not happy unless they are killing others and taking their stuff and their territory. One advantage of the subsistence economy of the First Settlers, (natives, that is), is that they would probably never have created huge cities, toxic pollution, and developed weapons of mass destruction. I think that for some, if not all, of those of us chosen for the Kingdom there will be a low-technology existence, probably focused on agriculture and raising animals, but without big machines that would put many out of work. Each person would either be a member of a commune-type community, or, have enough garden space to provide for themselves with enough produce left over to give a tithe back to God for the priests and other city workers. This might be a better world if the huge corporate farms of the world were partitioned into much smaller parcels to enable families, communes, and communities to provide for themselves. If everyone went vegetarian, there would be so much more land and water available for growing food.

I agree that it is through Christ. I don't know what you say "through the merits" of Christ, as what Scripture speaks of the "merits of Christ."? This is an aside, though, but feel free to respond if you wish. Back to your main question, as to what the body of Christ is, assuming that the body of Christ consists of believers, and there were believers before the cross, then the body of Christ must have existed before the cross.

Could you be misunderstanding what Paul wrote? There's a lot of disagreement as to what Paul meant. Why would you be so sure you are the one who is correct, and that Paul must be wrong? Another simpler solution (Occam's razor) is that Paul meant something different than what you are understanding.

God bless you Ted. Will pray for your continued success.

20. Apparently I have liked 20 different comments today, which was also news to me. But then again I hadn't counted. I don't think it was that many, but who knows.

did it say there was a daily limit? This is new for me. Thanks

Just so yous know, there are some more comments I tried to "like" and was told I had reached my limit. Lazarus was one as well as others. Some good thoughts I can really identify with or appreciate.

And we are the ones to decide who that applies to. LOL Why do we constantly regurgitate canned, lifeless, deadening, phrases that bring no one closer to Christ, but could quite possibly kill them eventually?

You've got that right! I go to church to connect with God's organized religion. I practice the 12 step program, including meetings, in order to be a Christian as each step is named in the bible but not taught in the church (in my opinion). Having said that, 12 step and our movement can complement each other. I was so disheartened at some calloused, ignorant comments made at church today that had little foundation in reality. Maybe if these people got out of their idealistic little worlds and saw what some people have been through such statements might not be so eagerly made as reality tends to, well, be reality as opposed to theory.

Columbus was not a 'good' man in the sense he came to satisfy his own greed. Yes, others came too, but it wasn't with the intent of taking people into captivity or taking what so many worked so hard for, but to live simply. Many come seeking sanctuary, yet why are they were so out numbered? God will sort through the mess. I am thankful knowing He is judge.

Thanks Stan, That was nice to read. The church is a prime example of self will run riot. I find it painful to be there after seeing such transformation in the people of AA. In the church, you watch everyone struggling to hang on to whatever it is they think they need, and then feel ashamed when they realize that their self control continually fails them. AA's are not much different from Adventists, the only difference is AA's have the willingness to work on themselves.

" I was asked if our Church could ever be as open and accepting as they are. I think the answer is a clear no. "-Stan I have no delusion about our Christian Exclusive Unequal Culture. (which Blocks Jesus from many People's view) My above post is making a point. And it is inevitable that point is made in a myriad of ways in a Christian Forum. I will still freely share about me in very measured amounts . Carry on & keep sharing!

BigMark ..Well laughter is one way to put it. From being uncomfortable or nervous or just plain mocking. Glib,patronizing, condescending, and apathy can enter in the arena too. or a STONE FACE! It hitting too close to home and must distance oneself by any of the above. Protecting one self. VERY HUMAN..NOT DIVINE! Jesus put everything out there among the 12 and very much to the closest three! Jesus needed the three in the Garden.... and they were not there for HIM! ...................................................................................................... We learn to trust in a good 12 step support group and seeing others risk reputation and being vulnerable opens up others to share more. Burdens are lifted at Calvary with others there at the Cross with you looking unto Jesus. (hence my name). It can go deeper and deeper. In Church we don't trust (generally) and we are very right in not trusting ..given what you hear others say about others in careless moments of conversations in the past. I was so deep in the closet. For years .. I heard what people say about me and my tribe. Stayed sick in my secrets. But as long as the Church was Comfortable... HEY! No trust. No transparency. No connection,No Fellowship. No accountability, No healing. The Total Opposite of God's Plan for us as a Body of Christ. It is a powerful healing thing to share something that we carry around in the dark with shame upon shame.for years, and to look up and seeing nothing but love and non condemnation in others eyes. Like JESUS looks at us! . We do need each other! http://clubadventist.com/forums/topic/63281-stupid-phrases-4-people-in-crisis/ touches on that # I like this thread too.!

I have been an AA from 1976 to 1979, then continuously since February 3, 1986. Decided that I needed to do some more "research". February 15, 1986 was the day I was commissioned a police officer. I went out hung-over and realized that booze and police work didn't mix. I wouldn't be able to help my partner if the situation ever went south. So I stopped. And stayed stopped. The comments about AA are spot-on. Alcoholics take their disease seriously, for "To drink is to die." AA has probably saved more lives than, ... oh, you know. AA has one-liners. There is an Android app called "Slogans" that delivers, well, slogans. Examples: "The will of God will never take you where the grace of God will not protect you." "One step at a time." "God is never late." The "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous shows its way to recovery. As we say at AA: "The Big Book costs about the same as a fifth, but it lasts a lot longer." The first time I read the Big Book, I thought: "They're telling my story! I don't have to put on a front. I can be honest." Things that could/would never come out in church, owing to behavioural expectations. In AA meetings I heard people being honest. One memorable meeting was a youth meeting with candle light. It was in the basement of a Lutheran church. One 13-year-old girl told of tricking for booze and drugs. Another man told of a friend who blew out his brains with a .38. Real people, real problems, ...and most importantly... real solutions. You find the gamut of human emotion at an AA meeting, from the lowest to the highest. Probably the most important part of the Big Book is Chapter 5, "How it Works". link(Chapter 5) I (heart) AA!

btw The Ministers Wife meant well.. She is a product of our SDA Christian Culture. And did not understand the 12 step process. Cause our Church (in General) do not understand the Holy Grail of Growing up Together in Christ) Transparency, Connection, Safety, and Accountability that leads to Healing. Many think we are accountable to each other or it is job to preach at each other. without the other stuff...... NOPE! that is Spiritual Abuse. It is Rampant in our Churches how dare we think we are called to speak into each others lives without those Four things firmly placed in ours and others hearts so ignorant and arrogant

btw..typing my above post brought up my frustration (yeah it shows) and lack of healing in what i thought was going to be very helpful in my growth being the working poor and spending so much gas every week for 8 (?) months and working long dog days at a job i already drove a lot to get too (in a different direction) was a great deal of sacrifice and holding out the hope for so long i can be with like minded SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST CHRISTIANS made me stick around so long ... beating a dead horse thanku for listening. I left out alot btw alot alot one of the church members in that 12 step group was featured on CELEBRATE RECOVERY on 3ABN years later. She became a good friend to Cherie Peters in all this.

Years ago, Chere Peters , the Host of CELEBRATE RECOVERY on 3ABN ...came to a big SDA Church for a weekend Seminar (a few towns away from me)....And that Church started a 12 step group to meet every Thursday Night. The Ministers wife set the tone. If someone was being real and sharing a deep pain. She would panic and had to give you a "Jesus loves U" sticker or sign. Like that would make everything go away. And God forbid you would talk about the same real pain next week. . It was her missionary Christian job to fix you (many good Christian mindsets when it becomes too uncomfortable ...just sayin). Of course the SDA Christian Culture also had to correct you with scriptures. Cross Talking* is a strict no no in many 12 step groups. But not here! Along with the constant accessing of everyone's spiritual walk of the general group was always taking place. God, our Christian Culture can be so TOXIC. We started with like 15 people and by the time it ended it was down 3. ..so unsafe. Towards the end it just got real shallow and tense. I confronted the Ministers wife with a letter I wrote (very early on about Cross Talk and the importance of not quoting bible verses/principles when someone shares something in their lives not measuring up to the 28 fundamental believes). And it went over her head. Towards the end I became more direct about just letting people share and sit quietly and not judging**. Of course by that time I was so irate by her constant spiritual abuse.. it showed in my eyes and voice. Then she had a real problem with me. So What! .. I was trying to save this supposed Ship in the Harbor ! I needed a Christian group that I can actually feel SAFE in. When I stopped going .. the group quit altogether cause it was down to TWO PEOPLE! Few people did speak up very timidly thru this eight month period. But I was more brazen cause this Church was a few towns away and I didn't go to this Church to face the weekly concussions/gossip. Also I know how 12 step groups supposed to look like. It was so bad. and tragically so sad. What a mess. Another thing I witnessed was the Church Politics of holding office and gossip. A Lady told me she stopped going cause there was a real issue of her husband's neglect and whatnot(list is long) but couldn't talk about it cause her mother in law is sitting right there. We all were stifled for one reason another. I remember one night I'm giving a Praise Report of of my sisters childhood boyfriend/neighbor who got cancer just after he became a Christian (as a very young adult) and he died still with an addiction to chewing tobacco. And what an amazing funeral Service/Witness to my non Christian parents (they watched this cowboy grow up) we had ! Well The Ministers Wife got irrated cause he didn't have the victory and calling into question his salvation (?) and went on about the evils of blah blah and soon another Lady joined in too. Calling sin by it's right name! Looking back I see it was a divergent tactic to prevent talk about the real stuff in our lives. Talking about others works very well. Sound familiar anyone? The 12 Step Principles are biblical and we all our Sinners and come short and have JESUS as our Higher power. but in the wrong hands it can take you down. *Cross Talk refers to people speaking out of turn, interrupting someone while they are speaking or giving direct advice to someone in a meeting. ** She didn't think she was judging..how dare I say that to her.. When someone tries to fix you you can bet they JUDGED you first. And more than one person told her that it wasn't our job to fix people but to listen and to look for identifying with them in their stories and learning from another in our beautiful tragic commonality ..well anyhoooooooo

My thinking is that some Sabbath School classes should be modeled after the AA methodology. Discussing the canned SS lessons will probably never affect a person's life in the way that baring your pain, your sorrows, your failures, and your successes to your peers can. SS is merely repetitive, external fluff, but sharing the secrets of your life and being held accountable for changes in behavior and attitude in a small group can transform you, sometimes requiring tears and hankies. One wouldn't necessarily have to meet on Sabbath in small groups, but it would be more convenient. This has already occurred in the past. Just put the SS lesson on the back burner and get on our hands and knees and cry out to God to change us for the better. Although we can't read minds like Jesus Christ did, we can affect others by keeping and eye on them and encouraging them to be overcomers of the addictions that plague so many of us. Yes, I have attended a few AA meetings in the past, not because I was addicted to harmful substances, but as a part of marriage counselling. At the time, I couldn't really relate to the type of people who attended. I might do better, now, after having a body grinder take off a few of my rough edges. Those meetings tend to create networks of encouragement. It's a great benefit to add a spiritual dimension using scripture and the teachings of Christ.